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The British government has a plan to stop borrowing money

Debt is money, and money is debt.

If I have a sheep, but I want two goats, I can take the sheep to a market and swap it for two goats. But if Joe is at the market, and wants a sheep but he doesn't have any goats with him, I can give Joe the sheep, and he now OWES me two goats. So Joe gives me a note that says 'I promise to give bilby two goats'. Well, that's OK, but what if I now want a pig? I go to the guy who has pigs, and give him the note Joe gave me, crossing out my name, and substituting his, so HE can now collect the two goats from Joe. In fact, we can simplify things, and have the note simply say "Joe the Goatherd promises to pay the bearer two Goats". Now Joe the Goatherd is acting as a Commercial Bank that issues its own banknotes; and as long as he has as many goats as he has notes, everything is peachy.

In fact, there is no need for Joe to ever give up the goats. That two goat bill can circulate in the economy for as long as we like; if everyone agrees that Joe is good for it, and that they could have those goats at any time if they wanted them, then the notes are better than the goats, because they fit neatly in your wallet.

Of course, there needn't be goats at all; you can have debts denoted in pure trust - fiat money, which is worth a dollar because everyone will accept it in exchange for $1 worth of stuff. Its value persists because people expect everyone else to keep accepting it; and a good way to ensure that everyone wants those dollars and therefore keeps on treating them as valuable, is to have a government that says 'We will always accept taxes in dollars, and we will ONLY accept taxes in dollars'.

So the total value of anything can be calculated in terms of dollars; and how many dollars you need to buy a goat is determined by the scarcity of both items - if dollars are scarce you need fewer of them to get a goat; and if goats are scarce, you get more dollars for each one.

So how do you control the number of dollars that are out there? Well, firstly you stop people from just printing as many bills as they want. Banknotes are an indication that someone owes you - they are the record of a debt - so you can't allow people to print them when no debt has been created. But bills are not where most money is kept anyway; most money is in other kinds of agreements to give stuff to people. If you have $1,000 in your savings account, that's not 100 $10 bills sitting in the vault at the bank - it's an agreement that the bank will give you that money at any time on demand. Because money and debt are the SAME THING. The paper isn't the money - the paper is just a record of the debt, and the debt is the money, whether it is recorded on a banknote, or in a computer, or on a contract.

Of course, there is no need for the bank to store enough paper money to pay out all of it's depositors; They only need enough money to pay the fraction of depositors who want to draw out money at any given time. So the rest of the money can be loaned - and as money IS debt, making a loan creates money - I won't go into the details of  fractional reserve banking here, but it is not a difficult concept to grasp.

Now, along comes Government. Notice that up to now, we have been able to produce fiat money in practically unlimited quantities without a government; the Government isn't needed to 'print' money, but by being a single place to which almost all citizens MUST pay taxes, it acts as a stabiliser - there is no benefit to an American citizen to decide to do all his business in Polish Zloty, because he cannot pay his taxes in anything other than US Dollars. This stabilises the value of the dollar, and provides a level of trust that is hard to get elsewhere - as money is debt, the presence of an economic actor who can be relied upon to never disappear, and to always accept your dollars, is a solid reason to trust that the value of the dollar will remain at least mostly stable.

Now the government doesn't really control the money supply. As shown above, money comes into existence just because debt exists; and disappears when debt is paid off. But the government can strongly influence the money supply, by borrowing money to create more of it; or by paying down debt to reduce the amount of it that is out there. By this means, the government can influence the speed of the economy directly. The other, more indirect option to control money supply, is to set the base interest rate. Interest rates are simply the cost of debt, and debt and money are synonymous, so interest rates are also the cost of money. By increasing rates, the central bank and/or government can make money more expensive - high rates mean that people want to pay off their private debts (ie destroy money); conversely, low rates encourage people to create money by taking on private debt.

So if rates are low (as they are now), but people are nevertheless paying off debt rather than taking out new loans (as they are now), the total amount of money is falling. This leads to less economic activity, as there is less reason to spend money today, if it will still be of much the same value tomorrow; Inflation - the measure of how much the amount of money that exists is devaluing vs the amount of non-money 'stuff' that people could buy from, or sell to, each other - is low, and people are not starting new ventures, or expanding their existing ventures, because they expect to get much the same return on their wealth by simply paying off debt, as they could be taking on debt and investing it in making or doing stuff.

An 'economy' is all the transactions that take place within a border. The border can be anything you like; A 'Household Economy' is all the transactions within a household; Cities, States, Nations, regions, etc. all have 'economies', and it makes sense to also divide economies by their choice of currency, to the 'US dollar economy' is all the transactions that involve US Dollars, no matter by whom or where those occur.

Most economies are open systems; money sent out of an economy is 'lost' to that economy, and money coming in from outside is 'gained'. So there are three ways that an economy can reduce its money supply - it can reduce its total net debt by paying off loans made to it, or by lending money out; or it can buy stuff that rapidly loses its value (or sell stuff that rapidly gains value); or it can isolate money so it does not circulate. The same options in reverse can increase money supply - increased debt from borrowing; buying stuff that increases in value or selling stuff that loses its value; and freeing up money that was previously isolated.

In a household economy, you can get a good overview of this by looking at how to change the amount of cash in your wallet. Borrow money - more cash in hand. Pay back a loan - less cash in hand. Sell something you no longer need - more cash in hand. Buy a hamburger - less cash in hand; Buy same shares that gain value, then sell them - more cash in hand. Stuff $1,000 into your mattress and forget about it - less cash in hand. Find the stash granddad hid in the 1970s - more cash in hand.

In a national economy, there are more actors, so it's less easy to see; but the same basic rules apply. So if the government borrows money from outside the economy, that increases the money supply. If that money is spent on a bridge to nowhere, it is easy to think that this is like me buying a hamburger - but that's a mistake, because while Burger King is not part of my household economy, the guys who build bridges to nowhere ARE a part of the national economy. The bridge doesn't do a lot of good, so no real value is created; it would have been better to spend the money elsewhere. But the money has not left the economy! It's now in the pockets of the construction workers, the steel workers, the miners, the engineers, etc.; And they may use it for something of more long-lasting value. And if the construction worker spends it on beer? Well maybe the barman will use the money to get an education; or the brewery will decide to build a new fermenter. Only money that leaves the economy - by paying off debt, by buying stuff from outside the economy, or by being stuffed into a mattress - is truly gone.

The government should therefore be able to regulate the economy by adjusting its own level of debt - taking on more debt when private borrowing is sluggish; and/or by adjusting interest rates down, to encourage private indebtedness; or when the economy is overheated, raising interest rates to encourage private savings and paying off of private debt; or by taking money in taxes, and destroying that money by paying off debt with it.

The problem comes when the mad conservatives decide that the nation is like a household. National austerity measures, with low levels of public debt and public spending, are perfectly calculated to destroy even more money in an already sluggish economy, converting recession into depression. The government may not be the best actor to choose how money is spent; but better that it be spent poorly (and thereby get into the hands of private actors who will spend it more wisely) than that it not be spent at all. Obviously private debt would be a preferable source of money supply for those who believe that private investors are better at picking high value-added projects to invest in; But those private debts are not being taken on - interest rates are at record lows, and yet citizens are fearful of taking on debt. It's a viscous circle - in a sluggish economy, private debt is risky; so people avoid private debt; so the money supply remains small; so the economy remains sluggish. The solution is helicopter money. The government can borrow, creating money; and can then get the money out into the economy by any means possible. Once the economy is re-booted, then raising taxes to pay off that government debt, and remove the excess money from the system shouldn't be difficult.

The British government plan is a perfect solution for a household with a large credit card bill and a real prospect of the breadwinner being made redundant. It is a perfect disaster for a national economy with high unemployment, low interest rates, low inflation and low growth. Nation states are nothing like households - not least because most economic activity in a household is EXTERNAL, while most activity in a national economy is INTERNAL. Until the likes of David Cameron grasp this concept, the British economy is doomed.
 
Why is that the question?

People who have money spend it in ways they want it to be spent; the people that it passes to as a result do the same. This process repeats until the debt is repaid, and the money is thereby destroyed.

It is quite unlikely that no long-term assets will be built by anyone in that chain of transactions. And there is no particular reason to require that any long term assets are bought by the first or second party to spend the cash. In fact, if the 'small government' brigade are to be believed, the government wastes money on assets that are not as valuable as what the people would have chosen to buy instead - so it is better to give the money to lots of people to spend as they please than it is to use it to build a highway, bridge, or airport that perhaps will see less use than was expected. Of course, if the government does buy a bridge, then lots of bridge construction workers end up with the cash, so the problem largely solves itself.

You've tried this before--take it to it's logical conclusion and the government should borrow infinite sums and turn the world into a utopia.

You have demonstrated this same error in understanding so many times that it is becoming mundane.

No, that is not the logical conclusion. A little of something being good does not imply that a lot must be better; If you really thought that, you would eat nothing but salt for dinner.

I understand that you are fundamentally incapable of following a nuanced discussion on this topic, so I would politely ask that you remain silent; we all know your objections by now; they remain erroneous. Let someone else have a try. Someone who can read, comprehend, and think, rather than trotting out a knee-jerk straw-man response.
 
Debt is money, and money is debt.

Nation states are nothing like households - not least because most economic activity in a household is EXTERNAL, while most activity in a national economy is INTERNAL.
How does the Greek example fit your reasoning? Isn't national debt simply collectivized debt? Whether one says that debt is public or private is really academic because the same people possess the debt liability, don't they?

I truly fail to grasp the distinction.

Perhaps there is a limit to debt that is considered optimal and which does the things you explain. I don't know what that is. For me, knowing that there are households and employees where I work who's homes are up for sheriff's sale and who are declaring personal bankruptcy is reason enough for me to manage my debt and even eliminate it.

I cannot understand how my possessing 1 million dollars is the same as my owing someone 1 million dollars.
 
Debt is money, and money is debt.

Nation states are nothing like households - not least because most economic activity in a household is EXTERNAL, while most activity in a national economy is INTERNAL.
How does the Greek example fit your reasoning? Isn't national debt simply collectivized debt? Whether one says that debt is public or private is really academic because the same people possess the debt liability, don't they?

I truly fail to grasp the distinction.

Perhaps there is a limit to debt that is considered optimal and which does the things you explain. I don't know what that is. For me, knowing that there are households and employees where I work who's homes are up for sheriff's sale and who are declaring personal bankruptcy is reason enough for me to manage my debt and even eliminate it.

I cannot understand how my possessing 1 million dollars is the same as my owing someone 1 million dollars.

It's not. It's the same as someone owing you 1 million dollars.

If nobody owes anyone anything, then nobody has any money.

The government borrowing a million dollars is the same thing as the government creating a million dollars.

If the government stops borrowing, then thare is that much less money in existence.

Less money means the money that exists is worth more - the process whereby money gets more valuable over time is called deflation, and it is bad because it discourages investment - why take a risk to increase your wealth, when you can get the same result by just holding on to your cash?

The optimum total amount of money (ie the sum of private debt plus public debt) should ideally in theory be whatever amount is sufficient to produce zero real inflation - that is inflation equal to the rate of growth, which implies zero inflation in real terms. For psychological reasons, it turns out that it is very bad indeed if this falls below zero, so the target inflation rate should be a bit more than that; a little inflation is a good thing, because it stops people from wanting to keep their money in their mattresses, and encourages them to invest it instead.

A lot of inflation is not so good either; so it's all about balance. Right now, lots of people like you are paying off debt. So the total amount of money that exists is falling. But the amount of stuff being traded isn't falling as fast (and we would prefer it didn't fall at all) - so to keep money at about the same value (avoid deflation), someone needs to borrow, to make up for all the people who are paying off debt, and keep total debt (and therefore total money supply) close to what it was.

Right now, most economies need a bit of inflation, to get the guys with the cash to invest it in stuff and get things moving. The way to achieve that in a controlled way is to have someone borrow some money - and if the private sector won't do it, the government must.

The difference with government is that it is in control of its own income - the taxpayers don't get to choose not to buy.
 
The government borrowing a million dollars is the same thing as the government creating a million dollars.

No, it's not.

Borrowing money does not create new money. As much as we seem capable of ignoring it here, when the government borrows $1,000,000 more the person that lent them that money has $1,000,000 less. There is no new money created.

Borrowing money creates a liability. Printing money does not.
 
The government borrowing a million dollars is the same thing as the government creating a million dollars.

No, it's not.

Borrowing money does not create new money. As much as we seem capable of ignoring it here, when the government borrows $1,000,000 more the person that lent them that money has $1,000,000 less. There is no new money created.

Borrowing money creates a liability. Printing money does not.

Money IS a liability.

Read my earlier posts.

Money isn't anything other than a promise to pay a debt. No debt, no money. No money, no debt.

Money is an artifact of time. It is what you have in the time between borrowing and repayment. If I borrow $1,000,000 from my bank, the bank does NOT have $1,000,000 less. Due to reserve requirements, perhaps the bank has (for example) $50,000 less. The remaining $950,000 was created by the act of borrowing.

If you can't grasp this simple concept, then it is no wonder your ideas about economics are so badly wrong.

Printing money that does NOT represent new (or existing) debt simply devalues all the money in circulation. In essence, it is a lie - a claim of indebtedness that was generated without anyone having borrowed anything. It is fraud.

If you simply hack into the bank's computer and add $1,000,000 to the balance on your deposit account, this is very different from taking out a $1,000,000 loan - because the liability to pay it back at some future date does not exist. And the money is supposed to embody a liability - money made without also creating a liability is fraud.
 
I don't know about dismal's money but my money says it's a Federal Reserve Note and a Note is a debt instrument.

Maybe dismal is still using silver certificates for all his money needs. :shrug:
 
If you doubt that a national debt can't be paid back without causing a serious contraction of the economy and you are absolutely convinced that I am wrong then your job should be easy to prove it. Simply tell me where the money will come from to buy back the bonds that constitute the national debt if it doesn't come from private savings and increases in private debt. Tell me when the US has paid off a part of the national debt themselves, (without a significant positive trade balance, when other nations are helping,) without causing a major depression within a few years.

Is everyone in agreement that money is created by debt? And that money is destroyed by paying back debt? Do we need to review fractional reserve banking yet again? How it creates money out of thin air?

That money is,

  1. A medium of exchange.
  2. A store of value.
  3. A measure of value. (sometimes expressed as "A unit of account" when economists want to be obscure, which is almost always.)

Do we have any Austrian economists here? Who only accept number one above because the two other properties of money makes a hash out of their reasoning for the supposed superiority of the gold standard as a monetary system.

That there is no sentient quality of money that would provide it with memory about where it came from? A memory that causes it to behave differently because it was spent by the government, not by a more acceptable economic actor. A memory that prevents the money spent by the government from boosting the economy by creating more demand?

No one in their right mind saves money at a fraction of a percent return and real inflation is a multiple of that return. The savings situation is in the toilet.
 
If you doubt that a national debt can't be paid back without causing a serious contraction of the economy and you are absolutely convinced that I am wrong then your job should be easy to prove it. Simply tell me where the money will come from to buy back the bonds that constitute the national debt if it doesn't come from private savings and increases in private debt. Tell me when the US has paid off a part of the national debt themselves, (without a significant positive trade balance, when other nations are helping,) without causing a major depression within a few years.

Is everyone in agreement that money is created by debt? And that money is destroyed by paying back debt? Do we need to review fractional reserve banking yet again? How it creates money out of thin air?

That money is,

  1. A medium of exchange.
  2. A store of value.
  3. A measure of value. (sometimes expressed as "A unit of account" when economists want to be obscure, which is almost always.)

Do we have any Austrian economists here? Who only accept number one above because the two other properties of money makes a hash out of their reasoning for the supposed superiority of the gold standard as a monetary system.

That there is no sentient quality of money that would provide it with memory about where it came from? A memory that causes it to behave differently because it was spent by the government, not by a more acceptable economic actor. A memory that prevents the money spent by the government from boosting the economy by creating more demand?

No one in their right mind saves money at a fraction of a percent return and real inflation is a multiple of that return. The savings situation is in the toilet.

I wish it was. But it's not - people are saving like crazy (although mostly they are paying off debt, which amounts to the same thing), and that's why there's no demand - demand requires people wanting to spend, not wanting to save. The economy can't run if people are not buying and investing in things, and are destroying money instead, by paying down debts.
 
I wish it was. But it's not - people are saving like crazy (although mostly they are paying off debt, which amounts to the same thing), and that's why there's no demand -
Of course there is still demand, just not as much as some think is needed.
demand requires people wanting to spend, not wanting to save.
Demand can come from savings too.
The economy can't run if people are not buying and investing in things, and are destroying money instead, by paying down debts.
There are limits to growth. Economies can't expand endlessly, so at some point this needs to be accepted. And, without endless expansion the "system" will eventually run into problems
 
Of course there is still demand, just not as much as some think is needed.
Der.
demand requires people wanting to spend, not wanting to save.
Demand can come from savings too.
No, it can't. By definition. If you want to re-define words to suit your own agenda, then anything is possible. But nothing is useful in such a case. So it's pointless.
The economy can't run if people are not buying and investing in things, and are destroying money instead, by paying down debts.
There are limits to growth. Economies can't expand endlessly, so at some point this needs to be accepted. And, without endless expansion the "system" will eventually run into problems
That's one of those things that sounds true, because it uses a different meaning for the word 'growth' than that used by economists.

There are no limits to growth in the economic sense, any more than there is an upper limit to the set of real numbers.

Perhaps you should learn the meanings of words used in technical discussions BEFORE trying to participate in a technical discussion? If you don't, you just make yourself look ignorant.
 
Economics is like evolution - there are huge numbers of people debating the topic who labour under the misapprehension that they don't need to study it or learn anything about it in order to have a valuable contribution to make.

People don't naturally understand the Theory of Evolution, despite having evolved. They have to go and learn about it, in detail, before they can even understand discussions on the topic, much less contribute to them in a meaningful way.

People don't naturally understand economics either, despite having been immersed in it for most of their lives. They have to go and learn about it, in detail, before they can even understand discussions on the topic, much less contribute to them in a meaningful way.

It astonishes me that so many people - even those like David Cameron who are in a position of power with influence over economic policy, and who studied at expensive and exclusive schools mostly for the children of the rich, nevertheless managed to get through all of that without learning the fundamentals of what money IS, or how economies differ. When the people holding the levers of power don't even grasp that a national economy is not like a household economy, it's hardly a surprise that so few citizens understand this, and that as a result they keep electing incompetent fools.
 
Economics is like evolution - there are huge numbers of people debating the topic who labour under the misapprehension that they don't need to study it or learn anything about it in order to have a valuable contribution to make.

People don't naturally understand the Theory of Evolution, despite having evolved. They have to go and learn about it, in detail, before they can even understand discussions on the topic, much less contribute to them in a meaningful way.

People don't naturally understand economics either, despite having been immersed in it for most of their lives. They have to go and learn about it, in detail, before they can even understand discussions on the topic, much less contribute to them in a meaningful way.

It astonishes me that so many people - even those like David Cameron who are in a position of power with influence over economic policy, and who studied at expensive and exclusive schools mostly for the children of the rich, nevertheless managed to get through all of that without learning the fundamentals of what money IS, or how economies differ. When the people holding the levers of power don't even grasp that a national economy is not like a household economy, it's hardly a surprise that so few citizens understand this, and that as a result they keep electing incompetent fools.

+1

Some of the arguments in this thread are almost exactly equivalent to "if we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?". The mind boggles.
 
That one's easy: #3.

Why? Because we have produced a filled in hole instead of the nothing we got in #1?

Perhaps you should attempt the first part - what is growth?

Digging and filling the hole produced nothing but what you are forgetting about is that you paid people to dig and other people to fill. They have money in their pockets now and they want to go out and eat dinner after doing all that manual labor. So they are satisfying their hunger (something that did not happen in #1) and the people in the restaurant and all the way down to the farmer are getting paid money for something they did. So now those people have the ability to buy something and also the motivation to produce even more. Thus, we we can define your #3 scenario as economic growth. All other things equal it is something we want to do.
 
Der.
demand requires people wanting to spend, not wanting to save.
Demand can come from savings too.
No, it can't.
Sure it can. You can save money and then spend that
At which point it is no longer 'savings'
or you can borrow (create) money and spend that.
Which isn't 'savings' either. So you are basically just wrong on this.
One method is sustainable, one is not because it requires endless growth.
Endless growth is sustainable.

Growth means an increase in the total value of economic activity. You are, of course, not using it to mean this, because you are not competent to take part in this discussion, due to not having a clue that the technical terms being used are technical terms with precise meanings that may not be the same as the common meanings of the words in English; But that's what it means in this context.

There is no theoretical limit to growth. The value of economic activity is determined by the value of the things bought and sold; and there is no limit to that value, which is determined by the market.

If I have a bar of gold, and I bought it at auction for $1,000, then that's its value. If I sell it tomorrow, and two bidders both want it really badly, the bidding might start at $1,000, and then go up in $100 increments - $1,100, $1,200, $1,300, etc.

What is the limit to the price for which that bar of gold will sell? At what point will one of the bidders hear a bid from the other that he cannot exceed?

Sure, in the real world, bidders drop out at some point until the item is sold - but there is no actual limit to how highly the bidders can value the item being sold. The winning bid can always be beaten - just as there is no largest real number, there is no maximum size for an economy.

Notice that if the value of a gold bar today is $1,000, and tomorrow it is $1,100, there has been a 10% growth - even though the amount of gold has not changed at all. Physical resources do not necessarily constrain economic growth.

And to answer your next question, no, a whirlwind blowing through a junkyard would never assemble a 747. :rolleyes:
 
Less money means the money that exists is worth more - the process whereby money gets more valuable over time is called deflation, and it is bad because it discourages investment - why take a risk to increase your wealth, when you can get the same result by just holding on to your cash?

How would it be the same result, though? If a company is actually producing real wealth, then surely the return on your money is going to be better than the return from sitting on the cash, even if there is general deflation?
 
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