Turkey shoots down Russian Jet

[barbos]

I would go other way around. Knowing the crash position and normal speed and altitude I would calculate position during hit. if we do all that we will most likely find out that plane was hit over Syria.

It doesn't matter where the plane was hit. It matters where the plane was when the missile was fired.

No, it does not matter either. Because even if it was in Turkey during missile launch it was still pretty clear that it was on its way out of Turkey (not attacking Turkey). So since turkish polot did not care about that fact he could have launched this missile any time he wanted even before Su24 entered their space, all he cared was the fact of violation of their precious space. It was an ambush.
In any case, these missiles are pretty fast so it's possible Su-24 was already out during launch.

 

[barbos]

Fixed for you. He should have waited when Russia actually attacked Turkish forces and had a referendum.

Well, Russia did attack Turkmen rebels in Syria which is equivalent to Ukraine attacking the separatists in Donbass or Georgia attacking South Ossetians. Or at least it could be framed as such for propaganda purposes.

Russia did not attack Ukrainian forces. And Georgians attacked russian peacekeepers which were there to keep peace.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It doesn't matter where the plane was hit. It matters where the plane was when the missile was fired.

No, it does not matter either. Because even if it was in Turkey during missile launch it was still pretty clear that it was on its way out of Turkey (not attacking Turkey). So since turkish polot did not care about that fact he could have launched this missile any time he wanted even before Su24 entered their space, all he cared was the fact of violation of their precious space. It was an ambush.
In any case, these missiles are pretty fast so it's possible Su-24 was already out during launch.

Does that actually matter. IIRC, the moment it entered Turkish airspace, that was an act of war and they could shoot it down, just like the Soviets shot down that Korean plane in the 80s after it left Soviet airspace. I don't think that jumping back over the line means that you can run away without getting shot at. I think it only becomes a problem in regards to relations with whatever country it happens to go into because you just sent you military to kill somebody in their country. That's not much of a problem in regards to Turkish/Syrian relations.

I could google that to see if I'm remembering those rules correctly, but I'm too lazy. I'm about 54% sure it's correct, though.

 

[barbos]

No, it does not matter either. Because even if it was in Turkey during missile launch it was still pretty clear that it was on its way out of Turkey (not attacking Turkey). So since turkish polot did not care about that fact he could have launched this missile any time he wanted even before Su24 entered their space, all he cared was the fact of violation of their precious space. It was an ambush.
In any case, these missiles are pretty fast so it's possible Su-24 was already out during launch.

Does that actually matter. IIRC, the moment it entered Turkish airspace, that was an act of war and they could shoot it down, just like the Soviets shot down that Korean plane in the 80s after it left Soviet airspace. I don't think that jumping back over the line means that you can run away without getting shot at. I think it only becomes a problem in regards to relations with whatever country it happens to go into because you just sent you military to kill somebody in their country. That's not much of a problem in regards to Turkish/Syrian relations.

I could google that to see if I'm remembering those rules correctly, but I'm too lazy. I'm about 54% sure it's correct, though.

Actually it does matter. Rules do not say you have to shoot it immediately.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I didn't say they had to shoot it immediately. I said that leaving the territory doesn't mean they have to avoid shooting.

 

[fromderinside]

Well, Russia did attack Turkmen rebels in Syria which is equivalent to Ukraine attacking the separatists in Donbass or Georgia attacking South Ossetians. Or at least it could be framed as such for propaganda purposes.

Russia did not attack Ukrainian forces. And Georgians attacked russian peacekeepers which were there to keep peace.

So you are saying there were Russians on Ukrainian soil and that Russians were in a rebel province of Georgia as "peace keepers". How wonderfully peace loving./canyousayBSveryloudlywithastraightface.

 

[barbos]

Russia did not attack Ukrainian forces. And Georgians attacked russian peacekeepers which were there to keep peace.

So you are saying there were Russians on Ukrainian soil and that Russians were in a rebel province of Georgia as "peace keepers". How wonderfully peace loving./canyousayBSveryloudlywithastraightface.

Yes, there were russian peace keepers there. They have been there since 1990s. Both Georgia and Ossetia agreed to have them there to keep peace.

And again, no, Russia did not attack Ukraine. And even if hey did how does that justify Turkey attacking Russia?

 

[barbos]

I didn't say they had to shoot it immediately. I said that leaving the territory doesn't mean they have to avoid shooting.

Well, I guess you are right, that's why Turkey stopped violating Greece and Syrian space.
I suspect you will not be surprised when US shoots canadian plane which graze their space.

 

[tupac chopra]

Fixed for you. He should have waited when Russia actually attacked Turkish forces and had a referendum.

Well, Russia did attack Turkmen rebels in Syria which is equivalent to Ukraine attacking the separatists in Donbass or Georgia attacking South Ossetians. Or at least it could be framed as such for propaganda purposes.

Which them were Turkmen. The leader appears to have been Turkish.
‘Turkmen’ Who Killed Russian Pilot Is Son Of Turkish Mayor

A ‘Turkmen’ who claimed to have killed a Russian pilot after downing the Russian Su-24 jet on Tuesday, is actually a Turkish ultranationalist and son of a former Turkish mayor.

Syrian rebel commander Alparslan Celik is the son of a mayor of a Keban municipality in Turkey’s Elazig province.

The mayor’s son is also a member of The Grey Wolves, an ultranationalist group who commit various political murders

.

 

[barbos]

Well, Russia did attack Turkmen rebels in Syria which is equivalent to Ukraine attacking the separatists in Donbass or Georgia attacking South Ossetians. Or at least it could be framed as such for propaganda purposes.

Which them were Turkmen. The leader appears to have been Turkish.
‘Turkmen’ Who Killed Russian Pilot Is Son Of Turkish Mayor

A ‘Turkmen’ who claimed to have killed a Russian pilot after downing the Russian Su-24 jet on Tuesday, is actually a Turkish ultranationalist and son of a former Turkish mayor.

Syrian rebel commander Alparslan Celik is the son of a mayor of a Keban municipality in Turkey’s Elazig province.

The mayor’s son is also a member of The Grey Wolves, an ultranationalist group who commit various political murders

.

This is going to fuel all kind of conspiracy theories. I think as far as Russia concerned Turkey is out of Syrian war now, I mean they are going to bomb everything other than kurds crossing that border.

 

[Will Wiley]

Which them were Turkmen. The leader appears to have been Turkish.
‘Turkmen’ Who Killed Russian Pilot Is Son Of Turkish Mayor

A ‘Turkmen’ who claimed to have killed a Russian pilot after downing the Russian Su-24 jet on Tuesday, is actually a Turkish ultranationalist and son of a former Turkish mayor.

Syrian rebel commander Alparslan Celik is the son of a mayor of a Keban municipality in Turkey’s Elazig province.

The mayor’s son is also a member of The Grey Wolves, an ultranationalist group who commit various political murders

.

This is going to fuel all kind of conspiracy theories. I think as far as Russia concerned Turkey is out of Syrian war now, I mean they are going to bomb everything other than kurds crossing that border.

Maybe. The worry now for Russia is that with Southstream abandoned via Bulgaria,they had pinned their hopes on a Turkish pipeline to get gas to Europe

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I didn't say they had to shoot it immediately. I said that leaving the territory doesn't mean they have to avoid shooting.

Well, I guess you are right, that's why Turkey stopped violating Greece and Syrian space.
I suspect you will not be surprised when US shoots canadian plane which graze their space.

Well, that would be an act of war against America, so we need to be careful not to do it and not be surprised if they react to our act of war against them with warlike actions.

 

[barbos]

Which them were Turkmen. The leader appears to have been Turkish.
‘Turkmen’ Who Killed Russian Pilot Is Son Of Turkish Mayor

A ‘Turkmen’ who claimed to have killed a Russian pilot after downing the Russian Su-24 jet on Tuesday, is actually a Turkish ultranationalist and son of a former Turkish mayor.

Syrian rebel commander Alparslan Celik is the son of a mayor of a Keban municipality in Turkey’s Elazig province.

The mayor’s son is also a member of The Grey Wolves, an ultranationalist group who commit various political murders

.

This is going to fuel all kind of conspiracy theories. I think as far as Russia concerned Turkey is out of Syrian war now, I mean they are going to bomb everything other than kurds crossing that border.

Maybe. The worry now for Russia is that with Southstream abandoned via Bulgaria,they had pinned their hopes on a Turkish pipeline to get gas to Europe

There is no worry about that, because that pipeline is dead. The real worry is Ukraine joining Turkey and attacking Russia

 

[Jayjay]

Well, Russia did attack Turkmen rebels in Syria which is equivalent to Ukraine attacking the separatists in Donbass or Georgia attacking South Ossetians. Or at least it could be framed as such for propaganda purposes.

Russia did not attack Ukrainian forces. And Georgians attacked russian peacekeepers which were there to keep peace.

I think you missed the analogy. The point is that Ukraine has not attacked Russia directly, only Russian-backed rebels and uninvited "peacekeepers" in each country. This would be akin of Russia bombing the Turkey-backed rebels inside Syria (which they are doing), or shooting down Turkish plane in Syrian airspace (which they might very well do soon).

 

[barbos]

Russia did not attack Ukrainian forces. And Georgians attacked russian peacekeepers which were there to keep peace.

I think you missed the analogy. The point is that Ukraine has not attacked Russia directly, only Russian-backed rebels and uninvited "peacekeepers" in each country. This would be akin of Russia bombing the Turkey-backed rebels inside Syria (which they are doing), or shooting down Turkish plane in Syrian airspace (which they might very well do soon).

But Russia did not shoot Ukrainian plane.

 

[barbos]

In other news.
Israel trolled Turkey recently when they announced that Russian Su24 "invaded" their air space and was not shot down, because it was clearly an unintentional navigational mistake, Israeli simply contacted the pilot and he immediately left Israel.

 

[Jayjay]

I think you missed the analogy. The point is that Ukraine has not attacked Russia directly, only Russian-backed rebels and uninvited "peacekeepers" in each country. This would be akin of Russia bombing the Turkey-backed rebels inside Syria (which they are doing), or shooting down Turkish plane in Syrian airspace (which they might very well do soon).

But Russia did not shoot Ukrainian plane.

Yeah, they missed and shot a Malaysian one instead.

 

[funinspace]

Well, it looks like Erdogan feel good moment of shooting down the Russian jet, isn't going so well. France is getting cozier with Russia. It appears Erdogan is feeling insecure enough that he is arresting generals, and his spooks are the likely killer of a prominent lawyer, and he is busy arresting journalists. And the west has apparently and finally figured out Turkey has a long stretch of easy access border with Syria...

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/11/syria-turkey-russian-warplane-shot-down-aftermath-erdogan.html

In another sign of Turkey’s increasing isolation on Syria, The Wall Street Journal's above-the-fold feature on Nov. 28 was a report on how the United States has been pressing Turkey to seal its side of the Turkish-Syrian border. The article quotes a senior Obama administration official as saying “enough is enough. … This is an international threat, and it’s all coming out of Syria and it’s coming through Turkish territory.”

The Sunni terror/war could start unraveling for the various kings and dictators in the ME...

 

[fromderinside]

Well, it looks like Erdogan feel good moment of shooting down the Russian jet, isn't going so well. France is getting cozier with Russia. It appears Erdogan is feeling insecure enough that he is arresting generals, and his spooks are the likely killer of a prominent lawyer, and he is busy arresting journalists. And the west has apparently and finally figured out Turkey has a long stretch of easy access border with Syria...

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...ian-warplane-shot-down-aftermath-erdogan.html

In another sign of Turkey’s increasing isolation on Syria, The Wall Street Journal's above-the-fold feature on Nov. 28 was a report on how the United States has been pressing Turkey to seal its side of the Turkish-Syrian border. The article quotes a senior Obama administration official as saying “enough is enough. … This is an international threat, and it’s all coming out of Syria and it’s coming through Turkish territory.”

The Sunni terror/war could start unraveling for the various kings and dictators in the ME...

Oh, above the fold. I think that went away as an indicator of anything at about the time of Truman. For every reason there is a season, fold, fold, fold.

The real reason for Erdogan's newly scented smell is his using 'an enemy' The Kurds, and a couple bombs to generate enough fear to get a majority legislature. Some of us corrupt western democracies get bent by stuff like that.

Russia is assuring France they are on France's side on this terrorist thing and they will keep gas flowing just if France will relent and let them have that ship they built. Besides France needs Russia to refrain from trying to shoot down French planes in northern and western Syria as they try to prove to their people they are serious about terror in Syria and they don't want to appear to be getting too close to the US on anything. The French left loves that kind of balance.

Meanwhile at the global warming conference France took attendees on a tour of one of their tide generator installations. bhwah.

 

[funinspace]

Russia is assuring France they are on France's side on this terrorist thing and they will keep gas flowing just if France will relent and let them have that ship they built.

The 2 Mistral's were sold to Egypt, not that they have taken possession yet...
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ral-joins-egyptian-buys-french-gear/72821000/