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More Propaganda from the NY Times.

boneyard bill

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Thomas Friedman is an opinion columnist for the NY Times. So one might ask how a guy can be accused of spreading propaganda when he's only giving his own opinion? Former Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan gave the answer a long time ago. "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion," Moynihan noted, "but everyone is not entitled to his own facts."

Disinformation is propaganda whether it appears in an opinion piece or a more straight-forward news piece, and Friedman is engaged in a good deal of disinformation in his recent opinion piece in which he asserts that "Putin blinked."

In fact, I’d like to say more: Putin got pretty much everything wrong in Ukraine. He thought the world was still shaped by “spheres of influence” dictated from the top down, when Ukraine was all about the emergence of “people of influence” — The Square People, organized from the bottom up and eager to join their own sphere: the world of liberty and free markets represented by the European Union.

Say what? Those "people of influence" included many armed street thugs with ties to the neo-Nazi Svoboda Party and others were ultra-Ukrainian nationalists who want to make Ukrainians the ruling class despite the fact that they are a minority of the population. Meanwhile, the government that was overthrown had been democratically elected in a fair election supervised by international monitors. This may have been a "bottom up" revolution, but it was a revolution by the bottom feeders not the ordinary people of Ukraine.

Putin underestimated Ukrainian patriotism; even many Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine did not like pro-Putin thugs trying to force them to join Russia. “Ukrainians have said in opinion polls that they want open borders and visa-free access to Russia,” noted the pollster Craig Charney. “But they also said in those polls — and confirmed with their majority vote for a pro-European candidate in Sunday’s election — that while they think Russia is a nice place to visit, they wouldn’t want to live there.”

Friedman refers to the unarmed protestors in eastern Ukraine as "pro-Putin thugs" while ignoring their heavily armed opponents who gunned them down in the streets and, in Odessa, even set fire to the building where they had fled for protection. This is like referring to all those civil rights protestors in Mississippi back in the sixties as "thugs" while ignoring all the attack dogs that the police unloaded on them.

Friedman also notes that the majority of Ukrainians do not want to join Russia, but that is nation-wide poll, not one limited to eastern Ukraine and, in any case, attitudes can change quickly when you're being gunned down by western Ukrainians. But what is really laughable is his reference to the "pro-European" candidate who won the election. The only people allowed on the ballot were pro-European candidates. The election was a farce whereas Friedman would have you believe that it has some significance. Of course, the whole point of the election was propaganda intended to legitimize an illegitimate government, but that is no excuse for Friedman to ignore the underlying reality which he can't, or at least shouldn't, be unaware of if he claims to speak with any kind of authority.

Meanwhile, those armed street thugs are still occupying the Maidan! The barricades have not been removed, and the government buildings are still surrounded. So the government is still, quite literally, "under the gun."

So he blinked. The first flutter was pulling back his troops from Ukraine’s border and letting the election proceed. Interestingly, he chose to blink this out most directly at last week’s St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, Russia’s annual conference to attract global investors. “We want peace and calm in Ukraine,” Mr. Putin told the business executives. “We are interested that on our western borders we have peace and calm in Ukraine. ... We will work with the newly elected structure.”

Wow. The whole of the western media has been criticizing Putin for not pulling his troops away from the Ukrainian border and now that he does it, Friedman is insisting that Putin blinked. Apparently Friedman thinks that Putin shouldn't have withdrawn the troops. And he further "blinked" because he proposed to negotiate a solution to the Ukrainian problem. But Putin has been proposing negotiations all along. It is the US that has been intransigent on that point.

And, because Putin’s aggression in Crimea has spurred Europe to reduce its dependence on Russian gas, Putin rushed to Beijing to conclude a natural gas supply deal with China. The price China extracted is secret and experts “suspect Putin dropped the price of gas significantly for China in a desperate maneuver to ensure a steady cash flow for Gazprom in the face of sinking revenue and Western sanctions

The propaganda never ends. Again, we get the claim of Russian "aggression" in Crimea, but there was no aggression. Crimea was an autonomous republic with its own Parliament and its own President. They had voted to affiliate with Ukraine in 1992 after the break-up of the Soviet Union. It is hardly a surprise that Russian majority would vote to secede after a coup d'état in Kiev that put in power a bunch of extremist thugs who hate Russians. All Putin did was make the Russian forces, already there by treaty, available for the defense of the newly independent republic. Nor should it be a surprise that they would vote to join Russia to assure further protection.

There is no indication that Europe has lifted a finger to reduce its dependence on Russian gas. Meanwhile, the deal with China is a $400 billion deal! Of course, they're going to give China a discount for that kind of cash. But the deal had been years in the making. It was hardly a last-minute "desperate" move on Putin's part.

Nor does Friedman mention that Putin announced that he would now sell oil for rubles, thus putting a HUGE dent in the petro-dollar's status. Since other countries no longer need dollars to buy oil, the dollar has no where to go but down.

Let’s add it up: Putin’s seizure of Crimea has weakened the Russian economy, led to China getting a bargain gas deal, revived NATO, spurred Europe to start ending its addiction to Russian gas and begun a debate across Europe about increasing defense spending. Nice work, Vladimir. That’s why I say the country Putin threatens most today is Russia.

Talk about getting things upside down. The "bargain gas deal" with China moves the two countries closer together. Now China has agreed to build a bridge connecting Crimea to Russia thus moving the two countries even closer together. They have already long ago resolved their border dispute problem. They have already formed an economic alliance through the Shanghai Cooperative Organization. Meanwhile, Chinese fear of western expansion has led them to support Russia in the Ukrainian crisis and India has also backed Russia. So much for "isolating" Putin.

Evidence that Europe is doing anything at all to reduce its dependence on Russian gas in entirely lacking. That is nothing but a wet dream in Washington centered around a non-existent US surplus of gas due to fracking.

Meanwhile, this entire crisis has driven Russia and China closer together. We've essentially created a new Cold War. That's a great thing if you happen to be the US military industrial complex because you can now insist on the need for more defense spending to counter this new "threat" that we have created. But it is destined to fail because we simply don't have the money to maintain the complex that we have much less make it larger.

The Russian people will have to sort that out. I wish them well. I don’t want Russia to become a failed state. But I want to see Ukraine get where its majority wants to go — toward closer ties with the E.U., but without a break in ties to Russia. That will require not only a new Ukrainian president, but a new Parliament, a new constitution and an engaged network of civil society groups able to hold Kiev’s all-too-often corrupt leaders to the rule of law and to the standards of governance being demanded by both the E.U. and the I.M.F., in return for aid.

Good luck getting the Ukrainian people to hold their oligarchs to account. They haven't done it so far, but the fact is that they are the only ones who can do it. We have nothing to offer in that regard so including that is the "solution" to Ukraine's problems is just a way of justifying more US interference.

The last thing Ukraine needs is to come under the grip of the I.M.F. They will almost certainly include a demand for a devaluation of the hryvnia while will lead to a drastic decline in Ukrainian living standards. What Ukraine needs is to forget the I.M.F. and simply default on their debts and live within their means. That will means austerity, which will mean less government benefits, but that would be far less damaging than an across-the-board decline in living standards.

With Ukraine’s economy closely tied to Russia’s — Kiev owes Russia $3.5 billion in gas bills — Putin still has enormous power to squeeze Ukraine. The goal of the West should not be to prevent Putin from having any influence in Ukraine. Given all the links, that is not possible or healthy. It is to keep Putin backed off and blinking enough so that Ukraine can be Russia’s neighbor — charting its own balance between the E.U. and Moscow — but not Russia’s vassal.

Oh please, that gas bill isn't so much a squeeze on Ukraine as it is a squeeze on the US and Europe through the I.M.F. "You broke it, you bought it, so now pay up." And it is the west that is going to be in a constant squeeze precisely because Ukraine needs Russian gas and will for as long as we can imagine. Meanwhile, Putin has been pushing for negotiations for a long time with not much of a response from the west.

If this were merely a case of Friedman being as clueless as the State Department about running foreign policy we could write this off as yet another attempt to put lipstick on a pig. But as Moynihan noted, we are not entitled to our own facts, and Friedman has to distort the factual situation to make his lipstick cling. That is what makes this not merely a silly analysis but a egregious work of propaganda.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/opinion/friedman-putin-blinked.html?_r=1
 
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The problem with our pro-western propaganda is there are simultaneously trying to sell us two contradictory things. The first that Putin is the next Hitler, rebuilding the Soviet Union and restart the cold war etc. The second is that everything Putin does is a clumsy blunder destined to lead him and Russia to disaster. The military industrial complex needs to choose a narrative. Either Putin is this evil grand mastermind intent on taking over the world. Or he is a bumbling goon just destroying things on par with some African warlord. They can't have it both ways.
 
Oh look, more content free posts of yours regarding the Ukrainian situation. Complete with :rolleyes: smilies.
 
Oh look, more content free posts of yours regarding the Ukrainian situation. Complete with :rolleyes: smilies.

That's about the only thing left to do; seeing as no amount of fact-filled content has made a dent in that brick-wall armor of the resident pro-russians. At some point, even the self-hating gluttons for disappointment like myself are going to give up on the whole 'trying to convince people of reality' thing.
 
That's about the only thing left to do
No you can do other things while the adults are talking. If your're unhappy that you haven't been persuasive don't blame the audience. You're unpersuasive because you haven't made good arguments. Instead you've tried grade school distraction tactics ie calling us Putin fanboys, sarcastic remarks, and smilies and meme photos.
 
The problem with our pro-western propaganda is there are simultaneously trying to sell us two contradictory things. The first that Putin is the next Hitler, rebuilding the Soviet Union and restart the cold war etc. The second is that everything Putin does is a clumsy blunder destined to lead him and Russia to disaster. The military industrial complex needs to choose a narrative. Either Putin is this evil grand mastermind intent on taking over the world. Or he is a bumbling goon just destroying things on par with some African warlord. They can't have it both ways.

Then again maybe Putin isn't any of things. Maybe he's just a routine leader trying to cope with a situation that he didn't start and doesn't really want to have to finish.
 
That's about the only thing left to do
No you can do other things while the adults are talking. If your're unhappy that you haven't been persuasive don't blame the audience. You're unpersuasive because you haven't made good arguments. Instead you've tried grade school distraction tactics ie calling us Putin fanboys, sarcastic remarks, and smilies and meme photos.

Pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of the people who've been reading the Ukraine-related threads aren't on your side of the fence. It's hard for a forum dedicated to skepticism to take you guys seriously enough to go back to trying actual arguments instead of sarcasm and memes when your camp quite *literally* has had people claiming that Russia occupying government buildings, rushing through rigged referendums with armed guards and no privacy at the booth, and everything else, constitutes nothing more than one friendly neighbor 'helping' the other out. After nonsense like that, and all the other bash-head-against-wall-levels-of-obstinacy in regards to this whole issue, you can't expect anything else than what you get.

So yeah, it's little wonder that the only thing you guys have been getting in these echo chambers is either my sarcastic remarks or the tip-tappety sound of your own posting.

In conclusion: :rolleyes:
 
The problem with our pro-western propaganda is there are simultaneously trying to sell us two contradictory things. The first that Putin is the next Hitler, rebuilding the Soviet Union and restart the cold war etc. The second is that everything Putin does is a clumsy blunder destined to lead him and Russia to disaster. The military industrial complex needs to choose a narrative. Either Putin is this evil grand mastermind intent on taking over the world. Or he is a bumbling goon just destroying things on par with some African warlord. They can't have it both ways.
I agree. But none of that really had to do with OP.
 
The problem with our pro-western propaganda is there are simultaneously trying to sell us two contradictory things.

The problem with the pro-Russians here is that they apparently think there's not a whit of propaganda coming from the Kremlin. That Putin (whatever those bad western journalists say about him) is just an honest leader trying to do what's right for his people and is in no way attempting to manipulate opinion (or votes) in his favor.

It isn't like he's trying to be some sort of "president for life" or something. No, he's just this guy, and he just loves his country. So much so that you can't really blame him for trying to make it a bit bigger, eh?
 
The OP essentially accuses Friedman of omitting salient "facts" and poor analysis, but the OP is guilty of the same thing, which makes the OP title ironic.

Here are few examples of real howlers:

Again, we get the claim of Russian "aggression" in Crimea, but there was no aggression.
The troops were not invited in. Crimea was part of Ukraine . Those are the facts.

The whole of the western media has been criticizing Putin for not pulling his troops away from the Ukrainian border and now that he does it, Friedman is insisting that Putin blinked. Apparently Friedman thinks that Putin shouldn't have withdrawn the troops.
The conclusion does not follow from the premise. Whether or not Putin "blinked" does not mean that Friedman thought Putin shouldn't have withdrawn the troops.
The last thing Ukraine needs is to come under the grip of the I.M.F. They will almost certainly include a demand for a devaluation of the hryvnia while will lead to a drastic decline in Ukrainian living standards. What Ukraine needs is to forget the I.M.F. and simply default on their debts and live within their means. That will means austerity, which will mean less government benefits, but that would be far less damaging than an across-the-board decline in living standards.
Devaluations lead to temporary reductions in standards of living. Whether those reductions are temporary or most long-lasting depends on a host of factors. There certainly is no evidence nor reason to believe the reductions in living standards from an assumed devaluation (which the IMF may or may not require, and which Ukraine is free to reject) would be greater than from the necessary "austerity" proposed.
Nor does Friedman mention that Putin announced that he would now sell oil for rubles, thus putting a HUGE dent in the petro-dollar's status. Since other countries no longer need dollars to buy oil, the dollar has no where to go but down.
Russia does not play a large role in the oil market and most countries do not have significant stockpiles of rubles. So, the offer cannot possibly make a huge dent in anything, or have a noticeable effect on the dollar.
 
Pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of the people who've been reading the Ukraine-related threads aren't on your side of the fence.
You have absolutely no way of knowing how many people reading take what side much less whether an overwhelming majority do. You just assume your beliefs are facts and go from there. That is still no reason to litter up threads with empty posts and smilies.


The problem with our pro-western propaganda is there are simultaneously trying to sell us two contradictory things.

The problem with the pro-Russians here is that they apparently think there's not a whit of propaganda coming from the Kremlin.
I've stated in other threads Putin isnt a good guy and both sides use propaganda. Even if your false belief about the nature of the people arguing here was correct that doesn't excuse the propaganda coming from the west.
 
That's about the only thing left to do
No you can do other things while the adults are talking. If your're unhappy that you haven't been persuasive don't blame the audience. You're unpersuasive because you haven't made good arguments. Instead you've tried grade school distraction tactics ie calling us Putin fanboys, sarcastic remarks, and smilies and meme photos.

Pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of the people who've been reading the Ukraine-related threads aren't on your side of the fence.
And you know that how?
You really are a master of pulling facts out of your ass, aren't you?
 
Nor does Friedman mention that Putin announced that he would now sell oil for rubles, thus putting a HUGE dent in the petro-dollar's status. Since other countries no longer need dollars to buy oil, the dollar has no where to go but down.
Russia does not play a large role in the oil market and most countries do not have significant stockpiles of rubles. So, the offer cannot possibly make a huge dent in anything, or have a noticeable effect on the dollar.
Define "large"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_exports

I do not subscribe to petro-dollar theory but I doubt stockpiling rubles would be such a problem for Russia.
 
The problem with our pro-western propaganda is there are simultaneously trying to sell us two contradictory things.

The problem with the pro-Russians here is that they apparently think there's not a whit of propaganda coming from the Kremlin. That Putin (whatever those bad western journalists say about him) is just an honest leader trying to do what's right for his people and is in no way attempting to manipulate opinion (or votes) in his favor.

It isn't like he's trying to be some sort of "president for life" or something. No, he's just this guy, and he just loves his country. So much so that you can't really blame him for trying to make it a bit bigger, eh?

If there is any Russian propaganda, we're not getting here. There isn't any msm coverage of the Russian position or of just about anything that Putin has said. If you want the Russian position you have to go to RT which is only on the internet. Even there, however, most of the commentators are Western journalists.

Has Victoria Nuland even been mentioned in the mainstream media? Since I don't pay much attention to it, I don't know. What was reported, however, was John Kerry's statements to the media and his testimony before the Senate, and they conveyed to very different scenarios because Kerry can't lie to the Senate, but he can lie to the media and they dutiful report what he says without question.

So those of us who have figured out what is really going on in Ukraine haven't done so because we've somehow been overloaded by Russian propaganda. You just have to follow the news, but you have to dig a little deeper than the superficial clap trap that you get on the network news which does little more than parrot the State Department line.
 
The problem with our pro-western propaganda is there are simultaneously trying to sell us two contradictory things.

The problem with the pro-Russians here is that they apparently think there's not a whit of propaganda coming from the Kremlin. That Putin (whatever those bad western journalists say about him) is just an honest leader trying to do what's right for his people and is in no way attempting to manipulate opinion (or votes) in his favor.

It isn't like he's trying to be some sort of "president for life" or something. No, he's just this guy, and he just loves his country. So much so that you can't really blame him for trying to make it a bit bigger, eh?

If there is any Russian propaganda, we're not getting here.

No, you're pretty much 100 percent Kremlin propaganda.
 
If there is any Russian propaganda, we're not getting here. There isn't any msm coverage of the Russian position or of just about anything that Putin has said. If you want the Russian position you have to go to RT which is only on the internet. Even there, however, most of the commentators are Western journalists.
Well, few weeks ago there was CNN coverage of Putin talking at some meetings or something. Funny thing is, they cut it short exactly when he started his best points. Russian press made a big fuss about it, so much for a freedom of press in the West. But of course you don't know about that because US media choose not to talk about it.
Another thing I always notice in US is the fact that people are split about internal politics and generally don't trust government and senate considering them corrupt and incompetent. Yet when it comes to international politics they all trust them unconditionally. Somehow all these idiots become geniuses and moral leaders. And this is all after Iraq, Syria, NSA spying,....
 
And you know that how?

I know that from seeing how in all of these threads, it's always the exact same 3-4 people taking the pro-russian side; while nobody else does. The pattern couldn't be more clear.
And the same russia-haters like you, your point?
And even then you are minority here.

Come on. This is ridiculous. You dont have to be russia-hater to see Russia, and Putins, role in this.

Russia has taken Crimea from Ukraina. There is no doubt.
 
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