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Different Kinds of Reasoning - Scientific Method vs Faith

Factinista

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I've recently got into a discussion with a friend of mine about Christianity. Long story short...

I argue that some of the claims of Christianity, like "Jesus was bodily resurrected" or "God exists" are of a different kind of reasoning than those found in Science.
A claim like "evolution is a fact" or "the earth is several billion years old" are based in a different kind of thought process than those of faith.


So do you agree that Religion is a different "kind" of thought process than Science. If so, what evidences and arguments would you make to prove that point?
 
If you're making a claim about something that happened in reality, or something that exists, you don't get to choose different kinds of reasoning depending on the nature of what's being claimed. If we accept your argument, then it becomes possible to justify any false or unreasonable statement by saying "it's not wrong, it's just a different kind of thought process." Beliefs that are unsupported by evidence do not become reasonable just because they are religious beliefs. To say otherwise is to attempt to excuse religion from the ordinary rules of common sense that apply in everyday life, not just science.
 
Hello,

Claims like "Jesus was bodily resurrected" or "God exists" are statements about reality, and thus should be subject to reason. One way to determine the truth or falsehood of such claims is via the scientific method. While those two statements may be claimed as statements of faith, they're just declarations in that case. Faith has no mechanism to determine truth from falsehood, and so I personally would hesitate to call it a different kind of reasoning.

It sounds to me more like you're trying to describe Non-overlapping magisteria. A concept I really don't agree with for a variety of reasons.

Oh and by the way, welcome to the boards! :)
 
Doesn't reasoning in matters of faith fall into the philosophical category of Ontology...in a narrow band at that?
 
Faith is a terrible way to attempt to find reality. A priest, a rabbi, and an imam walk into a......etc etc. Add Jack Chick and you've got the full psychotic shindig goin' on.
 
I've recently got into a discussion with a friend of mine about Christianity. Long story short...

I argue that some of the claims of Christianity, like "Jesus was bodily resurrected" or "God exists" are of a different kind of reasoning than those found in Science.
A claim like "evolution is a fact" or "the earth is several billion years old" are based in a different kind of thought process than those of faith.


So do you agree that Religion is a different "kind" of thought process than Science. If so, what evidences and arguments would you make to prove that point?

You didn’t argue anything. You just asserted they were different and then asked someone else how to explain it.

Please provide your argument.
 
Different thought processes, yes. Different forms of reasoning -- I think not.

Anyone can fantasise, and without evidence all fantasies are equal, even if contradictory.
 
Faith, even as a neurophysiological function, is not logical or reasonable, and not a form of reasoning. Faith is the belief that 'if I think good thoughts' then this good thing will be true. That's what we call placebo. Because I believe I feel good right now.

In reality having faith has zero bearing.. well.. on reality. In reality, time passes, events occur, and thinking logically about those events and acting accordingly is what achieves results. Having faith in things like 'I'm going to heaven' or 'Jesus existed', means nothing about their validity, it just means you're experiencing a placebo unless you can prove those things actually true.
 
I argue that some of the claims of Christianity, like "Jesus was bodily resurrected" or "God exists" are of a different kind of reasoning than those found in Science.
A claim like "evolution is a fact" or "the earth is several billion years old" are based in a different kind of thought process than those of faith.

So do you agree that Religion is a different "kind" of thought process than Science. If so, what evidences and arguments would you make to prove that point?
I’m unclear what the thought processes of faith are. You did however give 2 examples of what I think of as mythic tales… the resurrection and God.

Mythological thinking is quite different from science since it conveys meaning with stories. It just doesn’t matter how historical or phony anyone thinks “The Resurrection” is, it's symbolic anyway.

There are plenty of instances of rebirths/resurrections in myth, which is experiential. To take one instance that's reminiscent of the Christ’s resurrection: shamans frequently tell of a visionary experience of being torn apart and boiled in a stew or other mortal crisis for a period of time that’s often a multiple of 3, and then reconstituted with new abilities.

Likewise if you die in a dream, it can signal changes happening (or needing to happen) in the dreamer's life. That’s the evolved epiphenomenal meaning of death in the imagistic/dreaming/mythic mind. A religious person might dream of death and say “Hey, this is a prophecy of what is to be!” and a skeptic will say “Bullshit, it’s just random firings of neurons!” when all along the symbol just innately means change, transformation.

The images convey meanings, because not everything that's meaningful must be discursively articulated. And getting literal about it like my example of the religious prophet versus the skeptic above just misses the point. Ancients didn’t split the inner and outer worlds the way we moderns try hard to do, they intermingled them. In today’s world, doing that subjects you to being deemed superstitious for being unscientific.

Anyway, that’s the only way I can figure out how to make either "Jesus was bodily resurrected" or "God exists" into a variety of thinking: they come from and appeal to another part of the mind than philosophical abstractions do. The resurrection's gotta be metaphoric or God exists as a big-time generalization about all the believer conceives to be "divine", or they’re bullshit in the way others are saying. Ultimately my point is, it doesn't have to be the way others are saying though, unless the believer makes it so by insisting "it's historic fact, ‘real’ in exactly the way my cat is real!” Religion's mythological thinking politicized and institutionalized, and then made absurd by losing sight of its psychological origins.
 
"Faith is like a piece of blank paper whereon you may write as well one miracle as another." ~ Charles Blount (1654-1693)
 
Different thought processes, yes.
How so?
I'm not debating if they are or aren't different thought processes. I'm just wondering how you see them as different? because....

Different forms of reasoning -- I think not.
What is the distinction you are making?

The OP used very loose terminology. ... Argue, thought processes, scientific method, faith and religion. I think there is something interesting to pursue here. But I'm not actually sure what the OP was arguing? I'm a theist trying to understand your (plural your) perceptions on the issue of the integration of faith and reason. But I'm not sure that is what the OP was actually addressing. Hence I cannot get a proper read of context on the following posts like yours.
 

I have witnessed these distinctions before. These particular videos are well constructed to make their case. But…….

The first video begs for the recognition of a distinction that atheists deny the theists with regard to the theistic terms. Ex...Faith is not belief without evidence. Continually atheists construct straw men of theistic terms. Can we grow past that and stop flaming straw men?

The second rightfully instructs one to examine the presuppositions an argument is based on, but has to philosophically presuppose materialism to make its case.
 
I've recently got into a discussion with a friend of mine about Christianity. Long story short...

I argue that some of the claims of Christianity, like "Jesus was bodily resurrected" or "God exists" are of a different kind of reasoning than those found in Science.
A claim like "evolution is a fact" or "the earth is several billion years old" are based in a different kind of thought process than those of faith.


So do you agree that Religion is a different "kind" of thought process than Science. If so, what evidences and arguments would you make to prove that point?

Religion isn't a thought process, but 'Faith' is. Faith is a "different kind of thought process" like 'a Dream' is a "different kind of reality".
 
If faith is not a belief/conviction held without the support of evidence.....what exactly is 'faith?'

Faith, biblical or otherwise is trust or confidence. Someone can have faith in a thing or a person. Someone could have faith in the truth of a proposition. Therefore when your trust is directed toward a thing/person, it is called 'faith in'; when it is directed toward the truth of a proposition, it is called 'faith that'. Faith doesn’t oppose reason or knowledge, but is actually rooted in them. Is the faith you have in your spouse devoid of knowledge?

I truly respected seyorni's response to my request and so respectfully I respond in kind...

http://www.johnlennox.org/jresources/faith-and-reason/
 
Sure, there are different uses of the word 'faith'. There are also different uses of the word 'rash'. I believe that the OP was focused on "religious faith', for which the definition, "belief in something in the absence of evidence", applies.

Faith in a person or faith in a proposition, I agree, is about trust. Faith and Trust are pretty much synonymous in those cases.
I have faith that I will not fall through the floor I am standing on... why? because history has shown me that I can trust this floor to support my weight.

Faith in a religious proposition is about trusting the source of information. To say one has faith (in religion) is to say that they believe the words of their preacher over the words of their science teacher (or even their own eyes).

I trust the scientific community over the religious community, so I have faith in the scientific method, and no faith in theology.

I don't think it is that complicated a notion.
 
Sure, there are different uses of the word 'faith'. There are also different uses of the word 'rash'.
Just like there are different definitions of atheist.

I believe that the OP was focused on "religious faith', for which the definition, "belief in something in the absence of evidence", applies.
Which religion are you referring to? I was assuming Christian. Thus your definition is far too simplistic and limited.

Faith in a religious proposition is about trusting the source of information. To say one has faith (in religion) is to say that they believe the words of their preacher over the words of their science teacher (or even their own eyes).
The vast majority of Christians I know would not view propositions that way. You might be surprised how scrutinized the pastor is by their congregation. You depict the slow of mind as the norm. Really? That would be like representing eugenics or phrenology as the scientific mainstream. The Bible is replete with reference to understand your faith.

I trust the scientific community over the religious community, so I have faith in the scientific method, and no faith in theology.
I trust in both and don’t perceive them as adversaries.
 
Sure, there are different uses of the word 'faith'. There are also different uses of the word 'rash'. I believe that the OP was focused on "religious faith', for which the definition, "belief in something in the absence of evidence", applies.

Faith in a person or faith in a proposition, I agree, is about trust. Faith and Trust are pretty much synonymous in those cases.
I have faith that I will not fall through the floor I am standing on... why? because history has shown me that I can trust this floor to support my weight.

Faith in a religious proposition is about trusting the source of information. To say one has faith (in religion) is to say that they believe the words of their preacher over the words of their science teacher (or even their own eyes).

I trust the scientific community over the religious community, so I have faith in the scientific method, and no faith in theology.

I don't think it is that complicated a notion.

I agree. There is no significant difference in meaning between a preacher who says "You must have faith", and a gangster who says "Trust me, would I lie to you?"; The only important difference is one of context - the gangster may or may not be telling the truth about a subject of which he has knowledge, while the preacher is asking you to trust that he was right to trust his preacher, who was right to trust his... all the way back to some unknown group of people who wrote the scripture or claimed to have seen the miracles in which you are supposed to trust. Trusting the gangster is therefore fractionally less stupid than trusting the preacher - although you would be crazy to trust either.

Anyone who is not deeply suspicious of a person who says 'I have no evidence, you should just trust me' is a fool; but for some reason, when the exact same statement is expressed in the phrase 'You should have faith', all of a sudden people abandon their scepticism. Truly weird.

Faith isn't a kind of reasoning; it is an alternative to reasoning - it is relying on someone else to have done the reasoning for you.
 
Just like there are different definitions of atheist.

I believe that the OP was focused on "religious faith', for which the definition, "belief in something in the absence of evidence", applies.
Which religion are you referring to? I was assuming Christian. Thus your definition is far too simplistic and limited.

Faith in a religious proposition is about trusting the source of information. To say one has faith (in religion) is to say that they believe the words of their preacher over the words of their science teacher (or even their own eyes).
The vast majority of Christians I know would not view propositions that way. You might be surprised how scrutinized the pastor is by their congregation. You depict the slow of mind as the norm. Really? That would be like representing eugenics or phrenology as the scientific mainstream. The Bible is replete with reference to understand your faith.

I trust the scientific community over the religious community, so I have faith in the scientific method, and no faith in theology.
I trust in both and don’t perceive them as adversaries.

You trust the man that says that people rises from the dead? Come on!
 
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