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Confessions of a Public Defender

It isn't culture vs. biology (in part b/c most environmental influence is not "culture"). It is a question of "a culture held by black people that is the root cause" (whatever that means b/c Loren has refused 4 simple request to define what he means by "held by") verus a larger and more long term culture and/or environment that is the cause of whatever self-destructive but natural and likely reactions exist within portions of the black community.
Note that this all excepts the OP descriptions at face value. I'm letting others take on that assumption. I am pointing out that even if the OP and Loren accept those descriptions, the rational interpretation is that the blacks in question are reacting to a form of victimization at the hands of centuries of the majority white culture, thereby supporting liberal views.
I don't buy victimization theory, in the sense that it is a lame excuse. And it still can be called a culture - "culture of victimization".
If parents blame white men all the time then kids will grow up doing the same, and it will propagate into the next generation.
 
It isn't culture vs. biology (in part b/c most environmental influence is not "culture"). It is a question of "a culture held by black people that is the root cause" (whatever that means b/c Loren has refused 4 simple request to define what he means by "held by") verus a larger and more long term culture and/or environment that is the cause of whatever self-destructive but natural and likely reactions exist within portions of the black community.
Note that this all excepts the OP descriptions at face value. I'm letting others take on that assumption. I am pointing out that even if the OP and Loren accept those descriptions, the rational interpretation is that the blacks in question are reacting to a form of victimization at the hands of centuries of the majority white culture, thereby supporting liberal views.
I don't buy victimization theory, in the sense that it is a lame excuse.

IOW, you don't buy actual science of human behavior because you have a blind faith that disagrees with it.
 
It isn't culture vs. biology (in part b/c most environmental influence is not "culture"). It is a question of "a culture held by black people that is the root cause" (whatever that means b/c Loren has refused 4 simple request to define what he means by "held by") verus a larger and more long term culture and/or environment that is the cause of whatever self-destructive but natural and likely reactions exist within portions of the black community.
Note that this all excepts the OP descriptions at face value. I'm letting others take on that assumption. I am pointing out that even if the OP and Loren accept those descriptions, the rational interpretation is that the blacks in question are reacting to a form of victimization at the hands of centuries of the majority white culture, thereby supporting liberal views.
I don't buy victimization theory, in the sense that it is a lame excuse.

IOW, you don't buy actual science of human behavior because you have a blind faith that disagrees with it.
You are assuming that your "science" is actual and correct science.
I merely disagree with your assumption.
 
Why all the wrangling pretending to not understand me?

He accurately described the culture, where he screwed up badly is describing it as black culture rather than black criminal culture.

The problem is that you are using a personal definition of "culture" different from the generally understood one, which has the added magic feature of being unchangeable by outside intervention. In this magic version of "culture", which bears no resemblance to the anthropological definition, people are morally at fault for embracing a criminal culture, which is fucking incoherent nonsense.

This allows you to be a bigoted, fucking racist while making the pretense of not being a racist, because you claim it is about "culture" rather than "race".

Culture is a set of beliefs.

Race is genetics.

They are separate things.

Saying a particular culture is bad says nothing about the genetics of it's adherents even if they tend to share a particular set of genetics.
 
1) Are the Black criminals who part of this culture doing so out of a conscious choice? Would they continue to exhibit these cultural practices if they had better cultures available to them? Consider a Christian Fundamentalist living in rural Louisiana versus one in New York City's East Village. Fundamentalism doesn't stay very pure for very long in New York because there are a lot of very visible and obviously better lifestyle options. The idea of leaving religion is much harder to contemplate in places like the above mentioned rural Louisiana where the religious lifestyle seems the only option. The cultural milieu changes behavior, and reduces individual volition. Loren seems to be of the opinion that this kind of cultural development is something individuals are fully morally accountable for and anyone who does not change the culture they grew up in simply isn't trying hard enough. This is functionally the same as flunking a non-English speaking child for bad SAT scores.

I do agree that upbringing plays a big role here.

2) Can negative cultural practices be eliminated by government intervention? Loren believes that this is not the case. That's not totally true, he believes government interventions he likes are effective and those he dislikes are not.

I have *NOT* said so. I have said that throwing money at the problem won't help and that I have not seen any viable solutions. That does not mean that an answer can't be found.

So what we end up with on planet Loren is criminal "culture" that his highly hereditary, the entire fault of the people living in that "culture", who are not fixable and should be left to kill themselves off.

But he doesn't think it's genetic, so it can't possibly be racism on his part. It just happens to have all the practical qualities of actual racism.

The correct term for Loren is then a "fucking bigot".

It's passed by upbringing, not by genetics. It's not race.

What do you suggest, that since it's caused by their upbringing rather than a free choice that we should just let them run rampant in society?

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So, this thread is about Loren now?
I certainly think culture is hard to change by government intervention.
If you grew up in certain culture chances are you will stay that way for the rest of you life.
Otherwise there would not be such a thing as culture.

Of course it's about me. It's easier to attack me than address the issues.

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Note that this all excepts the OP descriptions at face value. I'm letting others take on that assumption. I am pointing out that even if the OP and Loren accept those descriptions, the rational interpretation is that the blacks in question are reacting to a form of victimization at the hands of centuries of the majority white culture, thereby supporting liberal views.

I somewhat disagree with Duke in that I doubt much effectiveness by government intervention. While outside factors give rise to cultural practices, once they are established, cultural practices feed and defend themselves from external influence. That is why I've gone to lengths to point out that even when the root causes come from outside a culture, the solutions need to come from within it. Outside factions can give support to those internal forces.

I disagree with the notion that it's caused by victimization. Plenty of people didn't take that path.

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In any case, I tend to agree with Bill Cosby views on this issue.

Agreed, but that's blasphemy.
 
Why all the wrangling pretending to not understand me?

He accurately described the culture, where he screwed up badly is describing it as black culture rather than black criminal culture.

The problem is that you are using a personal definition of "culture" different from the generally understood one, which has the added magic feature of being unchangeable by outside intervention. In this magic version of "culture", which bears no resemblance to the anthropological definition, people are morally at fault for embracing a criminal culture, which is fucking incoherent nonsense.

This allows you to be a bigoted, fucking racist while making the pretense of not being a racist, because you claim it is about "culture" rather than "race".
Culture is a set of beliefs.
Beliefs? That seems to be a very narrow view of the word.
Race is genetics.

They are separate things.
Huh? But when you are talking about a "race's culture", you are broad brushing. And honestly, when did culture become the issue. Isn't this a poverty issue? Unless black children of wealthy black parents suffer from the same entitlement issues.

Saying a particular culture is bad says nothing about the genetics of it's adherents even if they tend to share a particular set of genetics.
Saying a particular culture is bad typically is broad brushing stereotypes onto an entire population of people.
 
It's passed by upbringing, not by genetics. It's not race.

That's not an explanation. Differences in upbringing do not arise out of magic (including the mythical magic of free will). So if it is not biology causing the differences in upbringing, then it is differences in the environment the parents have to deal with causing differences in upbringing. A huge and impactful aspect of that environment in the majority white culture that has repeatedly victimized the parents, their parents, and their parents' parents. IOW, using your terminology, the "root cause" is the "culture held by" whites that was designed to hurt blacks. That sounds quite "racial" even though its not "genetic".
In addition, your listing of "genetics" and "upbringing" ignore the source of most variance in human behavior, environmental factors other than anything that could be labeled "upbringing" (including environmental factors that impact behavior via biology, such as nutrition).

Note that this all excepts the OP descriptions at face value. I'm letting others take on that assumption. I am pointing out that even if the OP and Loren accept those descriptions, the rational interpretation is that the blacks in question are reacting to a form of victimization at the hands of centuries of the majority white culture, thereby supporting liberal views.

I somewhat disagree with Duke in that I doubt much effectiveness by government intervention. While outside factors give rise to cultural practices, once they are established, cultural practices feed and defend themselves from external influence. That is why I've gone to lengths to point out that even when the root causes come from outside a culture, the solutions need to come from within it. Outside factions can give support to those internal forces.

I disagree with the notion that it's caused by victimization. Plenty of people didn't take that path.

So then you must also disagree that smoking causes cancer since "many people didn't get cancer after smoking". This is a perfect analogy to the errors in your reasoning about causal influence on probabilistic outcomes. The question is why are these actions more prevalent in one community than another, just like why is cancer more likely in a smoking group than a non-smoking group. The fact that some people in the smoking or "black" group don't show the outcome in question does not undermine the fact that the cause of the differences in the tendencies between the groups is smoking in one case and victimization in the other. Of course, there are other causal contingencies and enabling or protective factors that create variance in the outcomes of people within each group. But the cause of the between group differences is still the identified feature on which the groups differ.
 
It isn't culture vs. biology (in part b/c most environmental influence is not "culture"). It is a question of "a culture held by black people that is the root cause" (whatever that means b/c Loren has refused 4 simple request to define what he means by "held by") verus a larger and more long term culture and/or environment that is the cause of whatever self-destructive but natural and likely reactions exist within portions of the black community.
Note that this all excepts the OP descriptions at face value. I'm letting others take on that assumption. I am pointing out that even if the OP and Loren accept those descriptions, the rational interpretation is that the blacks in question are reacting to a form of victimization at the hands of centuries of the majority white culture, thereby supporting liberal views.
I don't buy victimization theory, in the sense that it is a lame excuse.

IOW, you don't buy actual science of human behavior because you have a blind faith that disagrees with it.
You are assuming that your "science" is actual and correct science.
I merely disagree with your assumption.

Let me amend then: IOW, you don't buy (or are completely ignorant of) actual science of human behavior because you have a blind faith that disagrees with it.

IT isn't a matter of opinion any more than evolution. Like the faithful creationist, you have no science or reasoned argument to support you, you just blindly ignore what relevant science exists on the question.
 
I think I've stated elsewhere that I suspect a lot of the big and predominantly Black crime wave of 1960-1994ish was caused by childhood inhalation of leaded gas fumes, a problem that persists in a weaker form because of the continuing soil contamination of some areas that causes the inhaleable lead to rise again as dust in the summer months.

In that case, the outlawing of leaded gas in the medium term led to a reduction of violent crime.

That would technically qualify as government intervention fixing it and it is neither a genetic nor a cultural factor.

Here's a simple example of why I find it hard to take the culture argument seriously. I seem to recall barbos is a Russian expatriate from the old board (apologies if I am mistaken). Russia has never had a well functioning Democracy, so much so that some believe there is a "cultural tendency" towards towards autocratic government among Russians. The evidence for this hypothesis is as good as "North American Blacks have criminal tendencies." Would you be inclined to accept that judgement, barbos, or would you argue instead that Russia has been afflicted with a series of negative circumstances that has led to sequential autocracies?
 
I think I've stated elsewhere that I suspect a lot of the big and predominantly Black crime wave of 1960-1994ish was caused by childhood inhalation of leaded gas fumes, a problem that persists in a weaker form because of the continuing soil contamination of some areas that causes the inhaleable lead to rise again as dust in the summer months.

In that case, the outlawing of leaded gas in the medium term led to a reduction of violent crime.

That would technically qualify as government intervention fixing it and it is neither a genetic nor a cultural factor.

Here's a simple example of why I find it hard to take the culture argument seriously. I seem to recall barbos is a Russian expatriate from the old board (apologies if I am mistaken). Russia has never had a well functioning Democracy, so much so that some believe there is a "cultural tendency" towards towards autocratic government among Russians. The evidence for this hypothesis is as good as "North American Blacks have criminal tendencies." Would you be inclined to accept that judgement, barbos, or would you argue instead that Russia has been afflicted with a series of negative circumstances that has led to sequential autocracies?

Except culture is shaped by chronic long-term environmental conditions, usually in ways that allow the people to tolerate, cope with, justify, and even celebrate, and (in the case of Russia) have nationalistic pride in those conditions. Thus, even if larger circumstance have pushed Russia toward autocracy and away from democracy, the odds are extremely high that Russian culture would have adapted to that context in a way to embrace autocracy and devalue democracy, which in turn would dispose the Russian people toward less democracy and more autocracy in the future. IOW, without a very conscious and deliberate effort to break the cycle, environment shapes culture in ways that lead culture to reinforce that environment and so on, in a feedback loop.
The Russian people are not unaware that they live in an undemocratic democracy under a megalomaniac. Valuing democracy would force them to view Russian society as clearly inferior to most nations of the West. Putin rampantly murders and destroys the lives of the few in Russia who criticizes him, and does so out in the open. Even very rich and recently powerful people, including editors of once dominant new outlets have been stripped of most their wealth and live largely in hiding. The people know this and yet they do more than just sit quietly by hoping for an end to his reign. By most accounts I have seen, a large % if not majority worship Putin and his machismo, and seem more proud of the Russian "strength" they think he is displaying to the world than the near genocidal threat he poses to their own people.
All you have to do is take Putin and his actions and pluck him from Russia and put him in the White House. Would you imagine that the American people would react differently to him than the Russian people? If so, any such difference is a difference in culture.

Oh, almost forgot, I think the same thing applies to American Blacks. Even if environmental circumstances (e.g., poverty) are a major factor in crime levels among blacks, the longstanding prevalence of crime among blacks would almost certainly have a cultural impact combined with the impact of long-standing government sponsored and blatant injustice against their communities. Every relevant established principle within sociology and psychology would predict that this would shape culture and likely in ways that devalue the legal system (trust in it and respect for it) and view being prosecuted and incarcerated by it as less shameful and "par for the course". All of this would tend to increase the odds that a person within those communities would be willing to commit a criminal act, which in turn shapes the culture more, and so on.
 
Yes dt, but the point was to get barbos (who as I noted above is to the best of my knowledge a Russian expat) to notice that individual Russians expressing that culture is not something they are morally culpable for, same as the Blacks born into Loren's criminal culture are not morally culpable for having that culture thrust on them. (Note this does not excuse individual crimes by persons or eliminate the need to punish crime.)

Our entire argument has been an attempt to nail Loren down on this fundamental misunderstanding of his; of culture as something that people with a negative cultural traits are morally culpable for not changing.

The prick's attitude is if he can succeed (which he has not) so can anybody.
 
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