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Can money make you mean?

Could it just be that money itself is not "evil," but if you are either spiteful or greedy, the more money you have the more spiteful or greedy you can be. When I look at the Koch brothers, it makes me feel cold inside that anybody could be so damned mean. Yup, they have lots of money and they spend it cutting social safety nets and wrecking the environment. :sadyes:
 
How about the eternally-repeated pattern of ignoring considering whether race is merely a proxy for socioeconomic status.

Or the extreme distortions of reality in the attempts to blame healthcare costs for bankruptcies.

this is the point where you link to relevant materials that prove the assertion.

Do you not recall the discussions at the time the crap was published?

I.E.
"I don't have such links, as usual."

You were here.
 
Loren: Last year more than 2 million Americans filed for bankruptcy based on medical costs. I tried to copy the link but it didn't copy but you can get numerous sources for this if you Google (medical cost bankruptcies). Medical cost bankruptcies is quite a legal cottage industry.

Yeah, you'll find plenty of links. They're garbage.

What the actual study did was report that most bankruptcies involved at least one recent medical bill. That's no surprise but that does *NOT* say that the medical bills *CAUSED* the bankruptcy. The news reports of course made the jump that the researchers intended and reported it as medically caused bankruptcies.

A better look at the data says 5% of bankruptcies are actually due to medical bills and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway.
 
Loren: Last year more than 2 million Americans filed for bankruptcy based on medical costs. I tried to copy the link but it didn't copy but you can get numerous sources for this if you Google (medical cost bankruptcies). Medical cost bankruptcies is quite a legal cottage industry.

Yeah, you'll find plenty of links. They're garbage.

What the actual study did was report that most bankruptcies involved at least one recent medical bill. That's no surprise but that does *NOT* say that the medical bills *CAUSED* the bankruptcy. The news reports of course made the jump that the researchers intended and reported it as medically caused bankruptcies.

A better look at the data says 5% of bankruptcies are actually due to medical bills and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway.
Non, Loren. 17% of bankruptcies in the US are directly related to medical expenses. And that from a source critical of Himmelstein's and Colleagues' analysis. That is the analysis which claimed the 54.5% figure.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/25/2/w74.full

What is your source for your 5% figure with the escorting claim of "of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway." ?
 
Loren: Last year more than 2 million Americans filed for bankruptcy based on medical costs. I tried to copy the link but it didn't copy but you can get numerous sources for this if you Google (medical cost bankruptcies). Medical cost bankruptcies is quite a legal cottage industry.

Yeah, you'll find plenty of links. They're garbage.

What the actual study did was report that most bankruptcies involved at least one recent medical bill. That's no surprise but that does *NOT* say that the medical bills *CAUSED* the bankruptcy. The news reports of course made the jump that the researchers intended and reported it as medically caused bankruptcies.

A better look at the data says 5% of bankruptcies are actually due to medical bills and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway.
Non, Loren. 17% of bankruptcies in the US are directly related to medical expenses. And that from a source critical of Himmelstein's and Colleagues' analysis. That is the analysis which claimed the 54.5% figure.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/25/2/w74.full

What is your source for your 5% figure with the escorting claim of "of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway." ?

Not as bad as the original study but this one still overstates the issue.

article said:
A reexamination of their data suggests that medical bills are a contributing factor in just 17 percent of personal bankruptcies and that those affected tend to have incomes closer to poverty level than to middle class.

article said:
At best, they show that medical bills are a cause of 17 percent of bankruptcies but are not necessarily the most important cause.

article said:
This past year, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) responded to a request by Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) by examining 5,203 bankruptcy cases from the files of the U.S. Trustee Program. The filings occurred between 2000 and 2002, the same time frame as the filings studied by Himmelstein and colleagues. The DOJ reported that 90 percent of filers had medical debt of less than $5,000. Of those reporting medical debts, those debts accounted for only 13 percent of total unsecured debt. The DOJ summarizes the evidence against Himmelstein and colleagues’ thesis as follows: “The conclusion that almost 50 percent of consumer bankruptcies are ‘medical related’ requires a broad definition and generally is not substantiated by the official documents filed by debtors.”

article said:
According to Himmelstein and colleagues, 28.3 percent of respondents stated that illness or injury was a cause of bankruptcy. They also reported that medical bills contributed to the bankruptcy of 60 percent of this group. Multiplying the two figures together, we conclude that 17 percent of their sample had medical expenditure bankruptcies. Even for that 17 percent, we cannot state with any degree of certainty whether medical spending was the most important cause of bankruptcy.

Note that so long as they had *SOME* medical debt they're part of that 17%--even though it's likely that much of the problem is a loss of income rather than bills.

Your article basically supports my side of this!
 
My wife and I had to file for bankruptcy well more than a decade ago due to a medical bill. It wasn't tied directly to the bill however. I was approved for a medical procedure and afterwards my insurance company denied the claim (almost $20,000). We had excellent credit at the time and a few credit cards with plenty of available funds so we used the credit cards to pay the bills. Shortly afterwards my wife lost her job. We ended up late on some CC payments, the interest rates sky rocketed and we ended up in bankruptcy court. We were fairly frugal and responsible with our credit cards, that's why we had so much credit available. A cursory look at our situation would not find medical bills to be the reason for our bankruptcy but it was the reason.
 
Loren: Last year more than 2 million Americans filed for bankruptcy based on medical costs. I tried to copy the link but it didn't copy but you can get numerous sources for this if you Google (medical cost bankruptcies). Medical cost bankruptcies is quite a legal cottage industry.

Yeah, you'll find plenty of links. They're garbage.

What the actual study did was report that most bankruptcies involved at least one recent medical bill. That's no surprise but that does *NOT* say that the medical bills *CAUSED* the bankruptcy. The news reports of course made the jump that the researchers intended and reported it as medically caused bankruptcies.

A better look at the data says 5% of bankruptcies are actually due to medical bills and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway.
Non, Loren. 17% of bankruptcies in the US are directly related to medical expenses. And that from a source critical of Himmelstein's and Colleagues' analysis. That is the analysis which claimed the 54.5% figure.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/25/2/w74.full

What is your source for your 5% figure with the escorting claim of "of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway." ?

Not as bad as the original study but this one still overstates the issue.

article said:
A reexamination of their data suggests that medical bills are a contributing factor in just 17 percent of personal bankruptcies and that those affected tend to have incomes closer to poverty level than to middle class.

article said:
At best, they show that medical bills are a cause of 17 percent of bankruptcies but are not necessarily the most important cause.

article said:
This past year, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) responded to a request by Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) by examining 5,203 bankruptcy cases from the files of the U.S. Trustee Program. The filings occurred between 2000 and 2002, the same time frame as the filings studied by Himmelstein and colleagues. The DOJ reported that 90 percent of filers had medical debt of less than $5,000. Of those reporting medical debts, those debts accounted for only 13 percent of total unsecured debt. The DOJ summarizes the evidence against Himmelstein and colleagues’ thesis as follows: “The conclusion that almost 50 percent of consumer bankruptcies are ‘medical related’ requires a broad definition and generally is not substantiated by the official documents filed by debtors.”

article said:
According to Himmelstein and colleagues, 28.3 percent of respondents stated that illness or injury was a cause of bankruptcy. They also reported that medical bills contributed to the bankruptcy of 60 percent of this group. Multiplying the two figures together, we conclude that 17 percent of their sample had medical expenditure bankruptcies. Even for that 17 percent, we cannot state with any degree of certainty whether medical spending was the most important cause of bankruptcy.

Note that so long as they had *SOME* medical debt they're part of that 17%--even though it's likely that much of the problem is a loss of income rather than bills.

Your article basically supports my side of this!
I asked you for your source to support your claim of only 5% escorted by your further claim of "of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway." Again, please link to your source supporting your 2 specific claims.

The article I linked to and its content do not support your 2 specific claims. Where is your source?
 
My wife and I had to file for bankruptcy well more than a decade ago due to a medical bill. It wasn't tied directly to the bill however. I was approved for a medical procedure and afterwards my insurance company denied the claim (almost $20,000). We had excellent credit at the time and a few credit cards with plenty of available funds so we used the credit cards to pay the bills. Shortly afterwards my wife lost her job. We ended up late on some CC payments, the interest rates sky rocketed and we ended up in bankruptcy court. We were fairly frugal and responsible with our credit cards, that's why we had so much credit available. A cursory look at our situation would not find medical bills to be the reason for our bankruptcy but it was the reason.
The scenario of relying on CC to pay medical bills is very common among households where they simply do not have savings which can be used to meet those medical bills. The addition of monthly Credit Card payments to a pre existing budget meeting basic living expenses is bound to destabilize that budget. It is undeniable that those medical bills charged on Credit Cards are the cause for a down spiraling process which may compromise the ability to meet basic living expenses.

The oncology/hematology treatment center I go to has a Foundation designed to supplement their financially struggling patients' basic living expenses during the duration of their treatments which by the nature of oncology/hematology obviously point to unavoidable and certainly not to be delayed treatments and procedures. It is clear that such statewide(Florida) medical center is fully aware of how their medical billing is bound to destabilize those patients' pre existing budgets. By supplementing , they keep them afloat while preventing a situation like yours. A patient losing their employment would still be able to get their treatments while being relieved from the heavy burden of not being able to meet their monthly BLEs.

In our household and while I receive treatments, I have to be very careful to limit how many days I will need off from work to recover each week after each infusion. I limit it to the day of the infusion and following day to rest and recuperate from the side effects. Why? Because the more days I will take off, the lower income I will contribute to our household. Decrease in my income will destabilize our monthly budget to meet our BLEs. My husband, who like me works in nursing as an hourly wage health care worker, if any health related condition affects his ability to work, it would be catastrophic as he is the main income provider.

Like you, last year we had no choice but to charge and max out our Credit Card to meet the out of pocket cost of unavoidable repeated eye surgeries/procedures as we were still under insured. In 2010, we had no choice but charge our Credit Card to meet the out of pocket cost of oncology related care which could not be delayed. At the time I was a patient in a different facility which did not provide a Foundation based supplementing for BLEs.

I am looking now at what the cost out of pocket would be for the monoclonal treatments we cannot avoid I am currently receiving. Cost alone for the drug being between 3000 and 4000 dollars PER infusion. Accumulating a medical debt between 12.000 and 16.000 over the course of 4 weeks to be repeated 6 months later. Note that one would have to benefit of a high line of credit from a CC company to charge such large amounts on their Credit Card. Fortunately for us, we were able to secure adequate health insurance as of January 1st 2014 and the RX part of our plan does not have to go towards our deductible. Meaning the cost of the drug alone is 100% covered. However if we were still under insured, it is undeniable that such astronomical cost for the drug alone would greatly jeopardize our ability to meet our BLE obligations.

Just to clarify, when I use the term BLE, I am referring to shelter, utilities, food, transportation to and from work and clothing.

To go back to the OP question : IMO it has to do with what type of values were instilled in us by our parents' role modeling as we grew up. I had a humanitarian father. Further, my childhood was one which went from a colonial wealthy lifestyle to poverty when we moved to France. Giving me insights into both worlds. The exposure to the poverty "world" would guard me from "money making me mean". Later on in my adult life, my direct interaction with and observation of impoverished individuals/families necessitating in home health care. A 14 year old girl assuming the role of a caregiver to her quadriplegic mother in Progress Village, a poverty level community in Riverview. Basically, I have not lived in an "Ivory Tower" disconnected from and distant from those harsh realities.

What I am getting to is that when born with a silver spoon and growing up with the same silver spoon while being protected from exposure to the poverty and duress experienced by our fellow human beings, we might remain detached and distant. We might see the world through our own tiny box. We might retain a very self centered vision of what we are here for. We might think of our wealth as a long term generator of profit only without any other goal.

The above is NOT said as an absolute where every "silver spoon" traits individual will remain detached and distant. Both Gates and Buffet come to mind as promoters of what is referred to as "philanthrocapitalism" or venture philanthropy.
 
I asked you for your source to support your claim of only 5% escorted by your further claim of "of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway." Again, please link to your source supporting your 2 specific claims.

The article I linked to and its content do not support your 2 specific claims. Where is your source?

I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.

- - - Updated - - -

My wife and I had to file for bankruptcy well more than a decade ago due to a medical bill. It wasn't tied directly to the bill however. I was approved for a medical procedure and afterwards my insurance company denied the claim (almost $20,000). We had excellent credit at the time and a few credit cards with plenty of available funds so we used the credit cards to pay the bills. Shortly afterwards my wife lost her job. We ended up late on some CC payments, the interest rates sky rocketed and we ended up in bankruptcy court. We were fairly frugal and responsible with our credit cards, that's why we had so much credit available. A cursory look at our situation would not find medical bills to be the reason for our bankruptcy but it was the reason.

Did you appeal the denial? Unjustified denials are usually just paperwork issues.
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.
I am NOT missing that point at all. You are the party missing MY point that the 2 specific claims you made have no support yet you presented them as a truth. Need I to quote once more the 2 specific claims you made which are NOT supported by the article I linked to?

As to not having the URL around anymore, is it that difficult for you to do a Google search and produce your source? Until you can produce a source, I will consider that the 2 specific claims you made are bogus.
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.
I am NOT missing that point at all. You are the party missing MY point that the 2 specific claims you made have no support yet you presented them as a truth. Need I to quote once more the 2 specific claims you made which are NOT supported by the article I linked to?

As to not having the URL around anymore, is it that difficult for you to do a Google search and produce your source? Until you can produce a source, I will consider that the 2 specific claims you made are bogus.

You've already shown the numbers aren't too much above my claim.
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.
I am NOT missing that point at all. You are the party missing MY point that the 2 specific claims you made have no support yet you presented them as a truth. Need I to quote once more the 2 specific claims you made which are NOT supported by the article I linked to?

As to not having the URL around anymore, is it that difficult for you to do a Google search and produce your source? Until you can produce a source, I will consider that the 2 specific claims you made are bogus.

You've already shown the numbers aren't too much above my claim.

IOW, "Again, i don't have a link."

But you have your faith Loren, you have your faith.
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.
I am NOT missing that point at all. You are the party missing MY point that the 2 specific claims you made have no support yet you presented them as a truth. Need I to quote once more the 2 specific claims you made which are NOT supported by the article I linked to?

As to not having the URL around anymore, is it that difficult for you to do a Google search and produce your source? Until you can produce a source, I will consider that the 2 specific claims you made are bogus.

You've already shown the numbers aren't too much above my claim.

IOW, "Again, i don't have a link."

But you have your faith Loren, you have your faith.

When your side comes pretty close to proving my position I don't need a link.
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.
I am NOT missing that point at all. You are the party missing MY point that the 2 specific claims you made have no support yet you presented them as a truth. Need I to quote once more the 2 specific claims you made which are NOT supported by the article I linked to?

As to not having the URL around anymore, is it that difficult for you to do a Google search and produce your source? Until you can produce a source, I will consider that the 2 specific claims you made are bogus.

You've already shown the numbers aren't too much above my claim.

IOW, "Again, i don't have a link."

But you have your faith Loren, you have your faith.

When your side comes pretty close to proving my position I don't need a link.

17 is not close to 5
You can't back up what you say, as usual.

FAIL!
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.
I am NOT missing that point at all. You are the party missing MY point that the 2 specific claims you made have no support yet you presented them as a truth. Need I to quote once more the 2 specific claims you made which are NOT supported by the article I linked to?

As to not having the URL around anymore, is it that difficult for you to do a Google search and produce your source? Until you can produce a source, I will consider that the 2 specific claims you made are bogus.

You've already shown the numbers aren't too much above my claim.

IOW, "Again, i don't have a link."

But you have your faith Loren, you have your faith.

When your side comes pretty close to proving my position I don't need a link.

17 is not close to 5
You can't back up what you say, as usual.

FAIL!
Do not forget the "fail" on this part,

"and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway".

of his 2 specific claims :"A better look at the data says 5% of bankruptcies are actually due to medical bills and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway".
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.
I am NOT missing that point at all. You are the party missing MY point that the 2 specific claims you made have no support yet you presented them as a truth. Need I to quote once more the 2 specific claims you made which are NOT supported by the article I linked to?

As to not having the URL around anymore, is it that difficult for you to do a Google search and produce your source? Until you can produce a source, I will consider that the 2 specific claims you made are bogus.

You've already shown the numbers aren't too much above my claim.

IOW, "Again, i don't have a link."

But you have your faith Loren, you have your faith.

When your side comes pretty close to proving my position I don't need a link.

17 is not close to 5
You can't back up what you say, as usual.

FAIL!
Do not forget the "fail" on this part,

"and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway".

of his 2 specific claims :"A better look at the data says 5% of bankruptcies are actually due to medical bills and of those half are seniors who were living beyond their means and would have gone bankrupt anyway".


Thank you SG :)

So that would be

FAIL FAIL
 
I don't have the URL around anymore.

You're missing the point that your own link shows the number is low.

- - - Updated - - -

My wife and I had to file for bankruptcy well more than a decade ago due to a medical bill. It wasn't tied directly to the bill however. I was approved for a medical procedure and afterwards my insurance company denied the claim (almost $20,000). We had excellent credit at the time and a few credit cards with plenty of available funds so we used the credit cards to pay the bills. Shortly afterwards my wife lost her job. We ended up late on some CC payments, the interest rates sky rocketed and we ended up in bankruptcy court. We were fairly frugal and responsible with our credit cards, that's why we had so much credit available. A cursory look at our situation would not find medical bills to be the reason for our bankruptcy but it was the reason.

Did you appeal the denial? Unjustified denials are usually just paperwork issues.

Sorry it's been so long for me to get back to this. Haven't had much time to check in lately. My apologies.

Yes, we did appeal, several times, to the ins. company and then to the state insurance commission. I even had case law citations of insurance companies being forced to pay in my exact same circumstances. The problem was no jurisdiction. The state insurance commission doesn't cover employer provided insurance programs and state law forbids suing employer provided insurance providers. The epitome of being between a rock and a hard place.
 
Sorry it's been so long for me to get back to this. Haven't had much time to check in lately. My apologies.

Yes, we did appeal, several times, to the ins. company and then to the state insurance commission. I even had case law citations of insurance companies being forced to pay in my exact same circumstances. The problem was no jurisdiction. The state insurance commission doesn't cover employer provided insurance programs and state law forbids suing employer provided insurance providers. The epitome of being between a rock and a hard place.

Oh, that insanity. Employer plans are pretty much protected from lawsuits.

I've wondered what would happen if one sued the employer in such a case?
 
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