How he gonna get his money?

[Loren Pechtel]

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/No-Bond-for-Teen-Charged-in-Death-of-Brother-During-Alleged-Burglary-375617031.html

Felony murder.

I'm confused. How is he charged with the murder?

I'm confused also--I thought Felony Murder was treated as first degree murder, not second degree murder.

"Felony Murder" refers to any death that is a reasonably forseeable outcome of the commission of felony, even if it was not intended by any participant of the felony. The classic example is the cops shoot your partner, but it also applies to things like a heart attack when you pull a bank robbery etc. It also applies to traffic crashes due to fleeing or due to the cops rolling hot to the scene of your crime. I've heard of a case that was contested in the courts--two news choppers had a midair. Reasonably forseeable or not?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That is one portion of the equation here, as I'm speaking as to the liability of a criminal to the death of another criminal. If the intent of the criminal is to not rob a home with someone in it, and once they notice someone coming, they flee, it is hard to understand how a criminal could be held liable for a killing while in the progress of fleeing a crime. While Florida law may speak otherwise, I can only fathom a reasonable law only allowing a felony murder charge in a case of an aggravated (armed) felony.

The charge is second degree murder, not first degree. So the charge here is not saying he had premeditated intent to murder. Second degree concerns conduct which "any idiot would know" creates a high risk of serious injury or death.

But that is my point. The person knows that the event they are in can cause a reasonable risk of death. Is robbing an empty home while being unarmed a high risk event that can lead to a killing? Not really... that is why they are robbing an empty home, to avoid detection! How many unarmed robberies lead to a killing?

The prosecutor is using the conspiracy to commit a felony for this element of the charge.

That sounds like bullshit. This charge pretty much ends this person's life and it is completely bogus. Any hope of rehabilitation is dead because this prosecutor wants to make a point.

 

[Malintent]

That is your prerogative. No one in the "robber got what he deserved" camp is saying that you would HAVE to shoot someone you found in your home.. feel free to be raped and murdered, if that's what you're into. You, on the other hand, are trying to say that no homeowner has the right to use deadly force against a home invader / burglar.

It is obvious what LP is saying. If the person does not clearly pose a threat, then he or she should not be shot. For example, if the home invader is leaving the home, the home invader no longer poses a threat.

You are failing to follow... not sure I can explain it to you.. not going to try. However, your response "isn't even wrong".

 

[Trausti]

I'm confused. How is he charged with the murder?

I'm confused also--I thought Felony Murder was treated as first degree murder, not second degree murder.

"Felony Murder" refers to any death that is a reasonably forseeable outcome of the commission of felony, even if it was not intended by any participant of the felony. The classic example is the cops shoot your partner, but it also applies to things like a heart attack when you pull a bank robbery etc. It also applies to traffic crashes due to fleeing or due to the cops rolling hot to the scene of your crime. I've heard of a case that was contested in the courts--two news choppers had a midair. Reasonably forseeable or not?

First degree requires premeditation; shooting someone in the back of the head. Second degree is conduct which will very likely cause serious injury or death. I was taught it as "any idiot would know." I may not have intended to kill Loren Pechtel, but by my dropping rocks on the highway where he was driving "any idiot would know" that there was a high risk he'd be killed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is obvious what LP is saying. If the person does not clearly pose a threat, then he or she should not be shot. For example, if the home invader is leaving the home, the home invader no longer poses a threat.

You are failing to follow... not sure I can explain it to you.. not going to try. However, your response "isn't even wrong".

Dude, you are arguing with LP, the low bar on what is considered enough of a threat for the use of violent force. He has gone as far as saying previous scuffles, arrests, even the throwing of rocks is enough for the use of violent force by the Police. If LP says there wasn't a big enough threat...

 

[Trausti]

But that is my point. The person knows that the event they are in can cause a reasonable risk of death. Is robbing an empty home while being unarmed a high risk event that can lead to a killing? Not really... that is why they are robbing an empty home, to avoid detection! How many unarmed robberies lead to a killing?

Because it's the act itself that matters. It may be that they planned to burgle an empty home, but there so many variables when a felony is committed that you don't get off the hook if things don't go as planned. The classic example of felony murder is the get away driver for a bank robbery. He's not holding up the bank, and the robbers planned that no one gets hurt. Yet, a cop shows up unexpected, one thing leads to another, someone gets shot. The driver is culpable for murder. His participation in the felony aided in creating the high risk which resulted in death.

 

[laughing dog]

It is obvious what LP is saying. If the person does not clearly pose a threat, then he or she should not be shot. For example, if the home invader is leaving the home, the home invader no longer poses a threat.

You are failing to follow...

I agree that I am not following your incoherent bloodthirsty rants.

not sure I can explain it to you.. not going to try.

At least you realize how incoherent your argument is.

However, your response "isn't even wrong".

Of course, it is correct.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But that is my point. The person knows that the event they are in can cause a reasonable risk of death. Is robbing an empty home while being unarmed a high risk event that can lead to a killing? Not really... that is why they are robbing an empty home, to avoid detection! How many unarmed robberies lead to a killing?

Because it's the act itself that matters.

Yes, and the act entailed robbing an empty home. Criminals don't get shot by couches.

It may be that they planned to burgle an empty home, but there so many variables when a felony is committed that you don't get off the hook if things don't go as planned. The classic example of felony murder is the get away driver for a bank robbery..

A bank robbery is almost always an aggravated crime. You need to use force or imply force to pull off a bank robbery. Comparing a bank robbery with an unarmed robbing an empty home is ridiculous!

He's not holding up the bank, and the robbers planned that no one gets hurt.

The difference is they are armed or say they are armed. This implies a direct threat on people in the bank. There is no doubt there is a direct threat and now a life can be lost. There can be no expectation that nothing bad can happen that won't lead to injury or death in a bank robbery.

 

[Trausti]

Because it's the act itself that matters.

Yes, and the act entailed robbing an empty home. Criminals don't get shot by couches.

It may be that they planned to burgle an empty home, but there so many variables when a felony is committed that you don't get off the hook if things don't go as planned. The classic example of felony murder is the get away driver for a bank robbery..

A bank robbery is almost always an aggravated crime. You need to use force or imply force to pull off a bank robbery. Comparing a bank robbery with an unarmed robbing an empty home is ridiculous!

He's not holding up the bank, and the robbers planned that no one gets hurt.

The difference is they are armed or say they are armed. This implies a direct threat on people in the bank. There is no doubt there is a direct threat and now a life can be lost. There can be no expectation that nothing bad can happen that won't lead to injury or death in a bank robbery.

Again, just because you think you've planned it so no one gets hurt, that doesn't excuse you if your plan goes awry. It is an unavoidable fact that if the brothers here had not conspired to commit a felony, both brothers would be alive today.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Yes, and the act entailed robbing an empty home. Criminals don't get shot by couches.

It may be that they planned to burgle an empty home, but there so many variables when a felony is committed that you don't get off the hook if things don't go as planned. The classic example of felony murder is the get away driver for a bank robbery..

A bank robbery is almost always an aggravated crime. You need to use force or imply force to pull off a bank robbery. Comparing a bank robbery with an unarmed robbing an empty home is ridiculous!

He's not holding up the bank, and the robbers planned that no one gets hurt.

The difference is they are armed or say they are armed. This implies a direct threat on people in the bank. There is no doubt there is a direct threat and now a life can be lost. There can be no expectation that nothing bad can happen that won't lead to injury or death in a bank robbery.

Again, just because you think you've planned it so no one gets hurt, that doesn't excuse you if your plan goes awry. It is an unavoidable fact that if the brothers here had not conspired to commit a felony, both brothers would be alive today.

I think it very much does matter. As I noted, if you are unarmed and robbing an empty home. It is nothing like robbing a bank. I'm curious how many convictions on this charge has been made in a case where the felon(s) were unarmed.

 

[Trausti]

Yes, and the act entailed robbing an empty home. Criminals don't get shot by couches.

It may be that they planned to burgle an empty home, but there so many variables when a felony is committed that you don't get off the hook if things don't go as planned. The classic example of felony murder is the get away driver for a bank robbery..

A bank robbery is almost always an aggravated crime. You need to use force or imply force to pull off a bank robbery. Comparing a bank robbery with an unarmed robbing an empty home is ridiculous!

He's not holding up the bank, and the robbers planned that no one gets hurt.

The difference is they are armed or say they are armed. This implies a direct threat on people in the bank. There is no doubt there is a direct threat and now a life can be lost. There can be no expectation that nothing bad can happen that won't lead to injury or death in a bank robbery.

Again, just because you think you've planned it so no one gets hurt, that doesn't excuse you if your plan goes awry. It is an unavoidable fact that if the brothers here had not conspired to commit a felony, both brothers would be alive today.

I think it very much does matter. As I noted, if you are unarmed and robbing an empty home. It is nothing like robbing a bank. I'm curious how many convictions on this charge has been made in a case where the felon(s) were unarmed.

But it doesn't matter. What about the bank robber whose only weapon is a demand note? And, come one, any idiot would know that if you break into someone's house there's a high risk someone will be seriously injured or killed. That you miscalculated about when the owner would return home doesn't save you. By committing the felony you are creating the condition which could lead to serious injury or death.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Yes, and the act entailed robbing an empty home. Criminals don't get shot by couches.

It may be that they planned to burgle an empty home, but there so many variables when a felony is committed that you don't get off the hook if things don't go as planned. The classic example of felony murder is the get away driver for a bank robbery..

A bank robbery is almost always an aggravated crime. You need to use force or imply force to pull off a bank robbery. Comparing a bank robbery with an unarmed robbing an empty home is ridiculous!

He's not holding up the bank, and the robbers planned that no one gets hurt.

The difference is they are armed or say they are armed. This implies a direct threat on people in the bank. There is no doubt there is a direct threat and now a life can be lost. There can be no expectation that nothing bad can happen that won't lead to injury or death in a bank robbery.

Again, just because you think you've planned it so no one gets hurt, that doesn't excuse you if your plan goes awry. It is an unavoidable fact that if the brothers here had not conspired to commit a felony, both brothers would be alive today.

I think it very much does matter. As I noted, if you are unarmed and robbing an empty home. It is nothing like robbing a bank. I'm curious how many convictions on this charge has been made in a case where the felon(s) were unarmed.

Convictions of what, burglary or the secondary felony murder?

 

[KeepTalking]

Yes, and the act entailed robbing an empty home. Criminals don't get shot by couches.

It may be that they planned to burgle an empty home, but there so many variables when a felony is committed that you don't get off the hook if things don't go as planned. The classic example of felony murder is the get away driver for a bank robbery..

A bank robbery is almost always an aggravated crime. You need to use force or imply force to pull off a bank robbery. Comparing a bank robbery with an unarmed robbing an empty home is ridiculous!

He's not holding up the bank, and the robbers planned that no one gets hurt.

The difference is they are armed or say they are armed. This implies a direct threat on people in the bank. There is no doubt there is a direct threat and now a life can be lost. There can be no expectation that nothing bad can happen that won't lead to injury or death in a bank robbery.

Again, just because you think you've planned it so no one gets hurt, that doesn't excuse you if your plan goes awry. It is an unavoidable fact that if the brothers here had not conspired to commit a felony, both brothers would be alive today.

I think it very much does matter. As I noted, if you are unarmed and robbing an empty home. It is nothing like robbing a bank. I'm curious how many convictions on this charge has been made in a case where the felon(s) were unarmed.

Burglary of a habitation is burglary of a habitation. They were burglarizing a home, and they knew someone lived there. There is no way they could have known that no one was there are the time. There is always a risk that someone who belongs there will be in the home. That means there is always the risk of someone getting physically harmed because of your intent to burglarize the home. They played the odds, and they lost, both of them.

I think now that the fact is known that there were two burglars, and only one shot was fired, only one of the burglars killed, also goes to show that the homeowner was not just out to murder someone for fun. If that were the case, she likely would have shot at both of them, and not let up until both were dead. Either she was startled by the burglar, which doesn't seem to fit what the reports are saying, or the burglar she shot did something threatening in the reported confrontation.

 

[bilby]

I'm confused. How is he charged with the murder?

The charge may be second-degree murder, but it's applying the felony-murder rule. If you conspire with other people to commit a felony, and someone dies in the course of the felony, you're responsible for the death. Doesn't matter who dies.

Also known as the 'Some US laws are batshit nutso fucking crazy-ass insane evidence of mindless cruelty beyond all reason or belief' rule.

But it's the law, so it must be good, right?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Homeowner Shoots, Kills Teen Burglary Suspect

Relatives of a 17-year-old are angry the teenager was shot and killed by a homeowner who police say was protecting her property.
The sister of the teen who died identified him as Trevon Johnson. She said he was a student at D. A. Dorsey Technical College.
“I don’t care if she have her gun license or any of that. That is way beyond the law… way beyond,” said Johnson’s cousin Nautika Harris. “He was not supposed to die like this. He had a future ahead of him. Trevon had goals… he was a funny guy, very big on education, loved learning.”
On Thursday, police say Johnson burglarized a home south of 79th Street near I-95 — just blocks away from where he lives.
[...]
“You have to look at it from every child’s point of view that was raised in the hood,” said Harris. “You have to understand… how he gonna get his money to have clothes to go to school? You have to look at it from his point-of-view.”

How he gonna get his money? I don't know, maybe get a job?

For the record, I do not know whether the shooting is justified or not. It certainly is not clear cut but what is clear is that "but for" the burglary he would not have been shot.
But the reason I posted this is this casual justification of burglary by the cousin. It is a sign of a deep dysfunction in the culture.

P.S.: Being a Trevon from Florida is a dangerous proposition ...

The point of that comment was to look at the situation from their perspective. If you grow up in a poor, crime-ridden area you're not going to have a lot of options available, especially if you've already been taken in by a gang at an early age. In addition it's ridiculous to think that someone in a poor, crime-ridden area would always have the same mentality as someone who is not from a poor, crime-ridden area. They're not excusing his actions, they're just trying to bring more of an understanding to them. Apparently, that in itself is a crime among conservatives.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The charge may be second-degree murder, but it's applying the felony-murder rule. If you conspire with other people to commit a felony, and someone dies in the course of the felony, you're responsible for the death. Doesn't matter who dies.

Also known as the 'Some US laws are batshit nutso fucking crazy-ass insane evidence of mindless cruelty beyond all reason or belief' rule.

But it's the law, so it must be good, right?

It's not in general, maybe this case. But it's another case of punishing someone for engaging in a major crime.

 

[bilby]

Also known as the 'Some US laws are batshit nutso fucking crazy-ass insane evidence of mindless cruelty beyond all reason or belief' rule.

But it's the law, so it must be good, right?

It's not in general, maybe this case. But it's another case of punishing someone for engaging in a major crime.

Breaking and entering is not a major crime; unless your legal system is totally insane.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It's not in general, maybe this case. But it's another case of punishing someone for engaging in a major crime.

Breaking and entering is not a major crime; unless your legal system is totally insane.

It is different in each state, but some of them classify them as felony.

 

[Jayjay]

Homeowner Shoots, Kills Teen Burglary Suspect


How he gonna get his money? I don't know, maybe get a job?

For the record, I do not know whether the shooting is justified or not. It certainly is not clear cut but what is clear is that "but for" the burglary he would not have been shot.
But the reason I posted this is this casual justification of burglary by the cousin. It is a sign of a deep dysfunction in the culture.

P.S.: Being a Trevon from Florida is a dangerous proposition ...

The point of that comment was to look at the situation from their perspective. If you grow up in a poor, crime-ridden area you're not going to have a lot of options available, especially if you've already been taken in by a gang at an early age. In addition it's ridiculous to think that someone in a poor, crime-ridden area would always have the same mentality as someone who is not from a poor, crime-ridden area. They're not excusing his actions, they're just trying to bring more of an understanding to them. Apparently, that in itself is a crime among conservatives.

The victim lived just two blocks from the burglars. It's the same "poor, crime-ridden area".

 

[bilby]

Breaking and entering is not a major crime; unless your legal system is totally insane.

It is different in each state, but some of them classify them as felony.

Yes, that's what I just said.