• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Democratic Party: Civil War

 
 
 
No. The reason is because of two words - Elizabeth Warren. She is playing ball with Clinton and will continue to play ball with Clinton because she wants to be in charge of a large left wing bloc that's in control of the Senate.

One needs to remember that the only reason that there's a Sanders' candidacy in the first place is because the six month campaign to get Warren to run fell through. If the first choice of all the Sanders' voters is telling them to play ball because of all they can achieve when the party works together and the also-ran whom they settled on because they couldn't get their first choice is standing on the sidelines in a huff and telling them to join him, they will, for the most part, listen to what their first choice has to say on the matter.
 
“[W]e are prepared to mobilize our delegates to force as many votes as necessary to amend the platform and rules on the floor of the convention," wrote Sanders, several days after a tense phone conversation with the chairwoman.
Click to expand...

WOW!!!

Force votes!!! How undemocratic!!!

Oh wait.
 
Tom Sawyer said:
No. The reason is because of two words - Elizabeth Warren. She is playing ball with Clinton and will continue to play ball with Clinton because she wants to be in charge of a large left wing bloc that's in control of the Senate.

One needs to remember that the only reason that there's a Sanders' candidacy in the first place is because the six month campaign to get Warren to run fell through. If the first choice of all the Sanders' voters is telling them to play ball because of all they can achieve when the party works together and the also-ran whom they settled on because they couldn't get their first choice is standing on the sidelines in a huff and telling them to join him, they will, for the most part, listen to what their first choice has to say on the matter.
Click to expand...
Sander's presence also helps to shorten up the General Election run.
 
WOW!!!

Force votes!!! How undemocratic!!!

Oh wait.
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea how a political convention works? The alternative to voting is simply that a position is adopted without opposition. By 'forcing a vote' it means that every thing must be voted upon, rather than merely accepting them as they currently stand.
 
Sarpedon said:
WOW!!!

Force votes!!! How undemocratic!!!

Oh wait.
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea how a political convention works? The alternative to voting is simply that a position is adopted without opposition. By 'forcing a vote' it means that every thing must be voted upon, rather than merely accepting them as they currently stand.
Click to expand...

In other words transparent voting.
 
First off, I was at the Nevada State Convention, I worked as a volunteer during the credentialing process and was a delegate. The press is somewhat exaggerating the trouble-it mostly took place during the first hour of the convention and was centered around the vetting process for seating delegates.

Barbara Boxer was one of the first speakers-they should have let the crowd calm down before starting speakers-and they booed her loudly, just as they booed the next speaker who was a major Sanders organizer.

The Nevada Democratic party is similar to other states, there are a few elected officials who serve on different committees but the vast majority of the work is done by volunteers. If you've ever worked in a volunteer capacity you notice right off that things are pretty disorganized, this is because things are usually managed by a committee rather that a normal hierarchy you have in other organizations.

The Sanders people thought they had been screwed by a fixed system because some delegates weren't on the master list. I'm confident that there was no fixing the system, because that would have taken some semblance of project management skills, of which I don't believe existed.

What really happened was this: The Hillary people, like me, are Democrats, when we get emails, which all delegates were bombarded with emails, we actually read them and if something did't make sense we would contact the party, and several days to a week later we would get a reply. Most of the Sanders people I dealt with during registration showed a great deal of disdain for the Democratic party. When I asked them if they got a certain notification they would get pissed and tell me how fucked up everything was. The disdain, I suppose is because most of them, until recently, like Sanders, were Independents, people who thought that both political parties are "fixed"..

During the convention they had the Sanders people sit on one side of the hall, and the Clinton people on the other. I noticed that, generally, when a speaker would say anything about Sanders they would jump up and cheer wildly, but if the speaker mentioned getting democrats elected to congress or beating Republicans, they were mostly silent.

They are not democrats, and neither is Sanders, yet they want the party to change the rules. Earlier I mentioned that they booed a major Sanders organizer. That was because the gist of his speech was that he was trying to change the party from within, and suggested they do the same.
 
I read a short article a week or so ago about how Sanders would probably maximize his influence in that platform by quitting now.

This behavior seems to support that thesis. Going all the way to June

  • and losing then
  • and especially looking like a sore loser crowd all the way until then
  • and not asking his voters to look like they will be dem voters
  • and having those voters loudly show that they don't intend to be dem voters

Takes away the power of all of them to change the platform because the dems won't see them as reliable, so why cater to them?
Really, why indeed cater to them if they scream for 30 days that they won't vote?

Which is a shame because I want those principles to be on the platform and it is aggravating me that these goons are making it less likely. :(
 
Rhea said:
I read a short article a week or so ago about how Sanders would probably maximize his influence in that platform by quitting now.

This behavior seems to support that thesis. Going all the way to June

  • and losing then
  • and especially looking like a sore loser crowd all the way until then
  • and not asking his voters to look like they will be dem voters
  • and having those voters loudly show that they don't intend to be dem voters

Takes away the power of all of them to change the platform because the dems won't see them as reliable, so why cater to them?
Really, why indeed cater to them if they scream for 30 days that they won't vote?

Which is a shame because I want those principles to be on the platform and it is aggravating me that these goons are making it less likely. :(
Click to expand...
I like Sanders' ideas. I voted for Sanders, but I'll be damned if a Sanders' supporter says to me they aren't going to vote for Clinton (who won the primaries).
 
U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders on Tuesday issued the following statement:

“It is imperative that the Democratic leadership, both nationally and in the states, understand that the political world is changing and that millions of Americans are outraged at establishment politics and establishment economics. The people of this country want a government which represents all of us, not just the 1 percent, super PACs and wealthy campaign contributors.

“The Democratic Party has a choice. It can open its doors and welcome into the party people who are prepared to fight for real economic and social change – people who are willing to take on Wall Street, corporate greed and a fossil fuel industry which is destroying this planet. Or the party can choose to maintain its status quo structure, remain dependent on big-money campaign contributions and be a party with limited participation and limited energy.

“Within the last few days there have been a number of criticisms made against my campaign organization. Party leaders in Nevada, for example, claim that the Sanders campaign has a ‘penchant for violence.’ That is nonsense. Our campaign has held giant rallies all across this country, including in high-crime areas, and there have been zero reports of violence. Our campaign of course believes in non-violent change and it goes without saying that I condemn any and all forms of violence, including the personal harassment of individuals. But, when we speak of violence, I should add here that months ago, during the Nevada campaign, shots were fired into my campaign office in Nevada and apartment housing complex my campaign staff lived in was broken into and ransacked.

“If the Democratic Party is to be successful in November, it is imperative that all state parties treat our campaign supporters with fairness and the respect that they have earned. I am happy to say that has been the case at state conventions in Maine, Alaska, Colorado and Hawaii where good discussions were held and democratic decisions were reached. Unfortunately, that was not the case at the Nevada convention. At that convention the Democratic leadership used its power to prevent a fair and transparent process from taking place. Among other things:
The chair of the convention announced that the convention rules passed on voice vote, when the vote was a clear no-vote. At the very least, the Chair should have allowed for a headcount.
The chair allowed its Credentials Committee to en mass rule that 64 delegates were ineligible without offering an opportunity for 58 of them to be heard. That decision enabled the Clinton campaign to end up with a 30-vote majority.
The chair refused to acknowledge any motions made from the floor or allow votes on them.
The chair refused to accept any petitions for amendments to the rules that were properly submitted.

“These are on top of failures at the precinct and county conventions including trying to depose and then threaten with arrest the Clark County convention credentials chair because she was operating too fairly.”
https://berniesanders.com/press-release/statement-nevada/

I think he's right about this:
The Democratic Party has a choice. It can open its doors and welcome into the party people who are prepared to fight for real economic and social change – people who are willing to take on Wall Street, corporate greed and a fossil fuel industry which is destroying this planet. Or the party can choose to maintain its status quo structure, remain dependent on big-money campaign contributions and be a party with limited participation and limited energy.
Click to expand...
Right now there are a lot of people who are enthusiastic about Sanders but not Clinton. They shouldn't be blamed for being unenthusiastic about Clinton. It's because of who she is what she does.

I also think this was very close and smells a bit rotten:
The chair allowed its Credentials Committee to en mass rule that 64 delegates were ineligible without offering an opportunity for 58 of them to be heard. That decision enabled the Clinton campaign to end up with a 30-vote majority.
Click to expand...
 
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Derec said:
From Bernie Sanders Supporters, Death Threats Over Delegates
Sanders crashes into Democratic Party wall

Could there be a repeat of the 1968 convention?
Click to expand...

The establishment of both parties need to realize that the Internet has democratized information and media to a large extent. The people are more democratic and organized than ever and are not going to put up with being left out of decisions.
Click to expand...
Funny, that isn't how I see it. The Republican Establishment has been building the monster for a long time. They have used the Internet to pass along false information.

The Democrat Establishment has ignored the liberals for a long time, not surprisingly since 2000. The Liberals are fed up, but the young liberals have had a tendency of not showing up on mid-terms, which really fucks shit up via gerrymandering down the road.

The Internet has allowed more circle jerking than actual information and organization.
 
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
I think he's right about this:
Bernie Sanders said:
The Democratic Party has a choice. It can open its doors and welcome into the party people who are prepared to fight for real economic and social change – people who are willing to take on Wall Street, corporate greed and a fossil fuel industry which is destroying this planet. Or the party can choose to maintain its status quo structure, remain dependent on big-money campaign contributions and be a party with limited participation and limited energy.
Click to expand...
Right now there are a lot of people who are enthusiastic about Sanders but not Clinton. They shouldn't be blamed for being unenthusiastic about Clinton. It's because of who she is what she does.
Click to expand...

Dear Senator Sanders. You, an Independent, are running as a Democratic candidate and have been at every debate and on the ballot in every state.

You're welcome.
(by the way, you are not winning, but you've been welcomed to run)

Again. I like his policies. I am disliking his leadership of this movement more and more. I think he's harming the things I thought he was going to enable. Adn that makes me sad.
 
Harry_Bosch said:
Derec said:
From Bernie Sanders Supporters, Death Threats Over Delegates
Sanders crashes into Democratic Party wall

Could there be a repeat of the 1968 convention?
Click to expand...

Very disappointed in Sanders. It's never cool to use violence to vent frustration at the system. He's starting to act like Trump.
Click to expand...

You should be disappointed in yourself.

Sanders has condemned violence more than any candidate.

He has not been violent nor has he made statements promoting violence as Trump has.

Today all an opponent has to do is send somebody into the opposing camp that deliberately carries out violence and you have some so dull they condemn the candidate.
 
untermensche said:
Sanders has condemned violence more than any candidate.
Click to expand...

nope. Not in my opinion. He is not doing as well as he should for America on this issue.

Bernie Sanders said:
it goes without saying that I condemn any and all forms of violence, including the personal harassment of individuals. But,
Click to expand...

"But," erases everything before it. You know that. We rail at Republicans who make these SorryNotSorry statements. They are garbage statements. So no, Bernie has not, in my opinion, done anything to mitigate or correct this problem.

Also, is he blaming Democrats for these shots and ransacking? How come no news source has published anything about this before? Everyone is surprised by it. Was it Clinton supporters? And if not, what the fuck does it have to do with his supporters delivering death threats and why is he deciding to weasel away from addressing THAT directly?
 
U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders on Tuesday said:
“It is imperative that the Democratic leadership, both nationally and in the states, understand that the political world is changing and that millions of Americans are outraged at establishment politics and establishment economics. The people of this country want a government which represents all of us, not just the 1 percent, super PACs and wealthy campaign contributors.

“The Democratic Party has a choice. It can open its doors and welcome into the party people who are prepared to fight for real economic and social change – people who are willing to take on Wall Street, corporate greed and a fossil fuel industry which is destroying this planet. Or the party can choose to maintain its status quo structure, remain dependent on big-money campaign contributions and be a party with limited participation and limited energy.

“Within the last few days there have been a number of criticisms made against my campaign organization. Party leaders in Nevada, for example, claim that the Sanders campaign has a ‘penchant for violence.’ That is nonsense. Our campaign has held giant rallies all across this country, including in high-crime areas, and there have been zero reports of violence. Our campaign of course believes in non-violent change and it goes without saying that I condemn any and all forms of violence, including the personal harassment of individuals. But, when we speak of violence, I should add here that months ago, during the Nevada campaign, shots were fired into my campaign office in Nevada and apartment housing complex my campaign staff lived in was broken into and ransacked.

“If the Democratic Party is to be successful in November, it is imperative that all state parties treat our campaign supporters with fairness and the respect that they have earned. I am happy to say that has been the case at state conventions in Maine, Alaska, Colorado and Hawaii where good discussions were held and democratic decisions were reached. Unfortunately, that was not the case at the Nevada convention. At that convention the Democratic leadership used its power to prevent a fair and transparent process from taking place. Among other things:
The chair of the convention announced that the convention rules passed on voice vote, when the vote was a clear no-vote. At the very least, the Chair should have allowed for a headcount.
The chair allowed its Credentials Committee to en mass rule that 64 delegates were ineligible without offering an opportunity for 58 of them to be heard. That decision enabled the Clinton campaign to end up with a 30-vote majority.
The chair refused to acknowledge any motions made from the floor or allow votes on them.
The chair refused to accept any petitions for amendments to the rules that were properly submitted.

“These are on top of failures at the precinct and county conventions including trying to depose and then threaten with arrest the Clark County convention credentials chair because she was operating too fairly.”
https://berniesanders.com/press-release/statement-nevada/
Click to expand...

The more I read this (I went looking for details on this shooting and break in that no one has heard about,) the more I just keep seeing the following synopsis/response:

DNC: Bernie - for the love of country, say something about this violence!
Bernie: this statement
Me: Wait, does any of this make chair throwing and death threats okay!?
(pause)
Me: Exactly. Then it didn't belong in this statement about chair throwing and death threats. There's your problem. That's why this statement is not a statement about violence from your supporters.

Really, the only thing he said about teh violence was this,
Our campaign of course believes in non-violent change and it goes without saying that I condemn any and all forms of violence, including the personal harassment of individuals. But,
Click to expand...

Of course.
It goes without saying.
But...


And yet, while it was of course, and went without saying... it happened.
So you have said, functionally, NOTHING about the violence from your campaign.

I am disappointed in Bernie. I thought he was going to be really good to get behind. :(
 
I still can't for the life of me figure out why everyone is so pissed off. I don't know why the angry white men are pissed off and I don't know why the Sanders people are pissed off. Change happens slowly here, it's the way our republic was designed, but overall we don't have it that bad here. A huge majority of the world has it pretty bad. We don't. Our pissed-offedness seems to be inversely proportional to how fucked up things are.

Jobs aren't leaving the country because of NAFTA. They were leaving before NAFTA. NAFTA was an effort to keep them in the neighborhood instead of going all the way to Asia. There is only two ways that the government can influence whether jobs leave the country. One is to through protectionism, we tried that before with disastrous results. (Google Smoot-Hawley) The other is through progressive taxation with targeted loopholes which we pretty much have moved away from due to Republican propaganda.

I don't see where it's productive to make "wall Street" a villain. Are there villains on wall street? Sure, there are villains on every street. We just need to make sure that regs that are on the books are enforced, which was not happening prior to bubble bursting, but seems to have been happening since. Another reason why it's a good idea to have a Democratic administration. It's easy to say we need to break up the banks, but we also need to be sure that what we are doing is in the country's best interest before we start the anti-trust litigation. Another recession right now is not in the country's best interest.

Campaign finance reform? It's difficult to see how we can reform anymore within the confines of the first amendment. I'd like to see an effort made in this direction anyway, but first we need a Democratic congress or it ain't going to happen even if Sanders was elected President.
 
Rhea said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
I think he's right about this:

Right now there are a lot of people who are enthusiastic about Sanders but not Clinton. They shouldn't be blamed for being unenthusiastic about Clinton. It's because of who she is what she does.
Click to expand...

Dear Senator Sanders. You, an Independent, are running as a Democratic candidate and have been at every debate and on the ballot in every state.

You're welcome.
(by the way, you are not winning, but you've been welcomed to run)

Again. I like his policies. I am disliking his leadership of this movement more and more. I think he's harming the things I thought he was going to enable. Adn that makes me sad.
Click to expand...

Ya, it seems an odd strategy. If he were to say "I will drop out and support your candidacy in exchange for X, Y and Z", he'd get X, Y and Z. The Dems are in a position right now where it's possible for them to gain a majority in both the House and the Senate. It's still a bit of a longshot, but the opportunity is there. That opportunity is only possible if the Sanders people come out to vote. If not, Clinton will be negotiating with a GOP congress and the left wing will be ignored out of necessity.

He's already stopped her from veering hard to the right and, as an ally, he can continue that influence until the election. Then after the election, he can work towards getting them implemented instead of having them shot down by an obstructionist congress that doesn't want to do anything except wait to lose again in 2020.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom