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Historical Jesus

I agree. Homey wart remedies has zilch to do with the historicity of a magic Jew who supposedly turned water into wine, defied laws of gravity by walking on storm-tossed water, defied laws of conservation by creating matter (loaves and fishes), fixed neurological issues such as blindness and paralysis with a touch and levitated off into the sky to disappear into the clouds never to be seen again.

Did anyone claim they had?

You were the one who first mentioned it in a thread about an historical Jesus. Tom Sawyer argued that superstition was common in ancient periods, and you disagreed. Then you said, "Lots of people now can do faith healing--it is quite common."

To me, it seemed you were arguing two points:

A) More people can "do" faith healing now than in the past.
B) Since so few people could "do" faith healing in the past--as compared to today--then any reports of an ancient faith healer must be taken more seriously due to its relative unlikeliness.

If those weren't the points you were making, then you might want to explain why you mentioned faith healing in a thread about an historical Jesus.
 
I agree. Homey wart remedies has zilch to do with the historicity of a magic Jew who supposedly turned water into wine, defied laws of gravity by walking on storm-tossed water, defied laws of conservation by creating matter (loaves and fishes), fixed neurological issues such as blindness and paralysis with a touch and levitated off into the sky to disappear into the clouds never to be seen again.

Did anyone claim they had?

Is this a thread titled "Historical Jesus?" Did it get sidetracked into a discussion about wart charming? If so then my point stands. Regardless I think James Brown nailed it.
 
Did anyone claim they had?

You were the one who first mentioned it in a thread about an historical Jesus. Tom Sawyer argued that superstition was common in ancient periods, and you disagreed. Then you said, "Lots of people now can do faith healing--it is quite common."

To me, it seemed you were arguing two points:

A) More people can "do" faith healing now than in the past.
B) Since so few people could "do" faith healing in the past--as compared to today--then any reports of an ancient faith healer must be taken more seriously due to its relative unlikeliness.

If those weren't the points you were making, then you might want to explain why you mentioned faith healing in a thread about an historical Jesus.

Humans do faith healing in any period, presumably in very similar numbers per head of population. I mentioned faith healing in a discussion of Jesus in that he obviously did some, which then got hugely exaggerated in folk-memory, as do so many things. 'Faith healing' means faith in the healer, not supernatural beings, though that can presumably work too, if you are into that sort of thing.

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Did anyone claim they had?

Is this a thread titled "Historical Jesus?" Did it get sidetracked into a discussion about wart charming? If so then my point stands. Regardless I think James Brown nailed it.

Why 'sidetracked'? Human brains affect the functioning of human bodies, and denying that because of your 'religious' opinions is bigoted nonsense.
 
Humans do faith healing in any period, presumably in very similar numbers per head of population. I mentioned faith healing in a discussion of Jesus in that he obviously did some, which then got hugely exaggerated in folk-memory, as do so many things. 'Faith healing' means faith in the healer, not supernatural beings, though that can presumably work too, if you are into that sort of thing.

What do you mean, he "obviously" did it? That's like saying that the Hercules legends are obviously built around ancient Greeks discovering steroids because where else would they get an idea of a really strong guy? Ancient stories are full of made up people doing magic and the fact that you can find a potential parallel between the magic being done in the stories and something that exists in the real world doesn't mean that the magical abilities are therefore based on real people doing real things.
 
iolo, obvious as in recorded in religious propaganda sure
Xenu is a galactic overlord too
And batman killed superman in the 1980s
 
You were the one who first mentioned it in a thread about an historical Jesus. Tom Sawyer argued that superstition was common in ancient periods, and you disagreed. Then you said, "Lots of people now can do faith healing--it is quite common."

To me, it seemed you were arguing two points:

A) More people can "do" faith healing now than in the past.
B) Since so few people could "do" faith healing in the past--as compared to today--then any reports of an ancient faith healer must be taken more seriously due to its relative unlikeliness.

If those weren't the points you were making, then you might want to explain why you mentioned faith healing in a thread about an historical Jesus.

Humans do faith healing in any period, presumably in very similar numbers per head of population. I mentioned faith healing in a discussion of Jesus in that he obviously did some, which then got hugely exaggerated in folk-memory, as do so many things. 'Faith healing' means faith in the healer, not supernatural beings, though that can presumably work too, if you are into that sort of thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Did anyone claim they had?

Is this a thread titled "Historical Jesus?" Did it get sidetracked into a discussion about wart charming? If so then my point stands. Regardless I think James Brown nailed it.

Why 'sidetracked'? Human brains affect the functioning of human bodies, and denying that because of your 'religious' opinions is bigoted nonsense.

Wow. So now I'm a nonsensical bigot? Things sure got ugly in a hurry here.

For the record I did not deny that there are such things as placebo effects or other effects of thought and attitude on general wellness. Their existence is part of the reason double-blind studies are regularly used in clinical trials. I do assert that there are some hard limits on the effectiveness of placebo or positive thinking. No matter how much a person believes an amputated limb is not going to grow back. But even the most pessimistic individual can fend off a wart by the natural processes of the immune system. I am skeptical about wart charming and do not believe the anecdotal evidence would withstand clinical scrutiny. I'd be more than willing to change my stance on this the nanosecond rigorous and adversarial science has demonstrated a correlation. Until then it remains in the same bin as exorcism, magnotherapy and Benny Hinn. For that I will not apologize.
 
What's the point of this rambling? Can you faith heal verbosity?

No, nor tedious ill-manners.

I know it's not as much fun as baiting and insulting, but you could try reading about the issue.

Consider Theophilus of Antioch. According to Eusebius, he became bishop of the Christian community in that city in 168, but one has to wonder. In his treatise To Autolycus, apparently written toward the year 180, he tells us that he was born a pagan and became a Christian after reading the Jewish scriptures, a situation common to virtually all the apologists.

But what, for Theophilus, is the meaning of the name "Christian"? The Autolycus of the title has asked him this question. He answers (I.12): "Because we are anointed with the oil of God." (The name "Christ" itself means Anointed One, from the anointed kings of Israel.) In fact, Theophilus never mentions Christ, or Jesus, at all!
[…]
Athenagoras of Athens, who worked in Alexandria, wrote around the same time, though one ancient witness places him a few decades earlier. He was a philosopher who had embraced Christianity, but he shows no involvement in any church, or interest in rituals and sacraments. In A Plea For the Christians addressed to the emperor, he says this of his new beliefs (10): "We acknowledge one God . . . by whom the Universe has been created through his Logos, and set in order and kept in being . . . for we acknowledge also a Son of God . . . If it occurs to you to enquire what is meant by the Son, I will state that he is the first product of the Father (who) had the Logos in himself. He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things."

Unfortunately, in the course of 37 chapters, Athenagoras neglects to tell the emperor that Christians believe this Logos to have been incarnated in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. He dissects contemporary Platonic and Stoic philosophy, angels and demons, as well as details of various Greek myths, but he offers not a scrap about the life of the Savior. He presents (11) Christian doctrine as things "not from a human source, but uttered and taught by God," and proceeds to quote ethical maxims very close to parts of the Sermon on the Mount: "Love your enemies; bless them that curse you . . . ." Other quotations he labels as coming from scripture, or from "our teaching." Are these ethical collections that are unattributed to Jesus? Athenagoras never uses the term "gospel"; he speaks of "the witness to God and the things of God" and enumerates the prophets and other men, yet he ignores what should have been the greatest witness of them all, Jesus of Nazareth.

Give it a look-see, it's very interesting reading. And, one more time, I'm not offering this as proof of mythical Jesus, only that the case for historicity isn't clear cut.

http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/century2.htm
 
This argument has been done to death. The facts are that even the experts admit that outside of the gospels there's not a shred of evidence for a historical Jesus of Nazareth. In fact there is much more evidence for the existence of Zoroaster than of the mythical Jesus.
 
Outside the gospels, Pfft
Inside the gospels is religious propaganda, a progressive evolving storyline
 
This argument has been done to death. The facts are that even the experts admit that outside of the gospels there's not a shred of evidence for a historical Jesus of Nazareth. In fact there is much more evidence for the existence of Zoroaster than of the mythical Jesus.

Some around here missed the memo.

Also, it's been a while. Kinduv fun to do a review down Mythical Jesus Lane.
 
This subject is well over 2000 pages, and around 3-4 years long on another forum.

Sent from my Lenovo TB2-X30F using Tapatalk
 
NO evidence, hey? All history is that put forward by imperialists, hey? Hail Caesar! What a load of fundamentalist hogwash! Still, Conspiracy Theory and Americans do seem to be in symbiosis.
 
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Iolo, it's fine if you want to accuse "Americans" of being conspiracy theorists. I'd caution, however, that painting every individual in a country as large as the USA with a single brushstroke is ill advised.

Personally, I try to avoid getting sucked into conspiracy theories. Doesn't mean I always succeed, but I try. I'm curious as to why you seem to think that this is some big conspiracy theory though. In my opinion it is as reasonable to question the historical veracity of a tale of a person who walks on water as it is to question the veracity of tales of a man who rides airborne in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer. The existence of people who believe either story isn't good reason to abandon all semblance of rationality and simply accept it at face value.

I'm satisfied that it is a rational thing to consider the merits of the arguments against historicity of Jesus, especially the one presented in the canonical gospels. The evidence is quite damning.

  • Not one historian of the time in question, even those who were interested in religious affairs, ever mentions this man who was supposedly thronged by thousands of people.
  • The earliest writings about Jesus (the authentic Pauline epistles) never speak of him in terms other than a voice speaking through revelation.
  • The same Pauline writings address many issues which the later gospels indicate Jesus talked about or gave sermons about. Yet Paul never appeals to what Jesus said about any of these issues. Instead he speaks in authoritarian fashion.
  • Christianity is constantly evolving and shows no signs of slowing down. The development of the "Jesus" figure from a nebulous voice talking only to Paul to a flesh-and-blood personality that had lived a life in recent history is consistent with this evolutionary process.
  • There are many internal and external witnesses to charges that the Jesus biography was little else besides "cunningly devised fables." This isn't something people just started saying recently. It was being said from the inception of the movement.

I personally have no dog in the hunt as far as whether or not an actual person named Jesus was the inspiration for these stories. I know for a fact that a man could not have made the impact described in GMark without leaving significant evidence of his existence in the historical record. To argue otherwise is absolutely absurd. Yet no such corroboration exists, even from such people as Philo of Alexandria who lived in exactly the right time and place to know about such things, and who often wrote about religious movements.
 
NO evidence, hey? All history is that put forward by imperialists, hey? Hail Caesar! What a load of fundamentalist hogwash! Still, Conspiracy Theory and Americans do seem to be in symbiosis.

I'm not following how you feel that it's some sort of conspiracy theory. Who is it that you're saying we think were conspiring? The essence of the Mythical Jesus position is that stories about him evolved over a few generations until they got to the point when they were written down. There doesn't need to be any kind of scheme behind it.
 
NO evidence, hey? All history is that put forward by imperialists, hey? Hail Caesar! What a load of fundamentalist hogwash! Still, Conspiracy Theory and Americans do seem to be in symbiosis.

That's correct, no evidence outside scripture, none of which appears in the record until well after the supposed events.
 
NO evidence, hey? All history is that put forward by imperialists, hey? Hail Caesar! What a load of fundamentalist hogwash! Still, Conspiracy Theory and Americans do seem to be in symbiosis.

That's correct, no evidence outside scripture, none of which appears in the record until well after the supposed events.

And then it's mainly from church records.
 
Getting back to "incentive" though, my theory (and I understand it's just a theory, but it fits the evidence quite well) is that Paul was very much like J.Z. Knight. It started with a fabricated mystical relationship he claimed to have with this "Jesus" figure, who spoke to him in visions. It is possible that the character was borrowed from someone who had lived in recent history, but it's also possible that the character was made up from whole cloth or inspired by several different figures Paul had known during his life. Doesn't really matter, because all Paul ever talked about was the sacrifice this character had made for the benefit of all people and that you have to believe in him and listen to what he tells you through Paul if you want to be saved. And of course you have to give money. That's pretty much a given.

Paul never mentions anything about any earthly life for this character. None of the places he lived, none of the things he said, nothing about Mary or Joseph, not even any of the parables or sermons he preached. Not one of the fantastic miracles that evidenced he was something special, such as raising people from the dead, walking on water, healing blind people, feeding thousands with morsels. Nothing but the sacrifice.

Like J.Z. Knight, Paul was good at convincing people about this delusion. Didn't have to convince everyone, just needed to convince enough to make it profitable. He went from town to town convincing people, setting up franchises and getting his "cut" when he showed back up. In I Cor 16 1-2 this is a very evident component of the formula, as he tells them to do the same thing he had ordered all the churches throughout Galatia to do, give a little to the collection plate every Sunday so that "there be no gatherings when I come."

As time went by people wanted to know more about this character Paul was channeling, so stories were fabricated to fill this void. Many of these stories were clearly adaptations of earlier myths. Others were fabricated for their symbolic significance (e.g., the transfiguration). Eventually the "sacrifice" part coalesced into a symbolic Passover story that coincided well with the Jewish holiday.

This theory works well because it accounts for the dearth of information about Jesus contained in Paul's earlier writings and the progression of this character from a nebulous voice talking only to Paul to an actual person who had lived a fantastic event filled life in recent history. Paul popularized the character; others began filling in the vacuum with anecdotes. The good ones were keepers, the not-so-good didn't make the cut. The editors of GMark put together the first version that we still have available for perusal today, but it's likely that there may have been other earlier ones that were trumped by GMark.

Paul didn't invent Christianity or Jesus, the movement had already started before he was preaching about it.
 
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