Historical Jesus

[Horatio Parker]

I think he's putting forth the common argument that Jesus was a psychosomatic healer.

Didn't know it worked on warts….

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think he's putting forth the common argument that Jesus was a psychosomatic healer.

Didn't know it worked on warts….

Or on corpses. I guess Lazarus was actually just really tired.

 

[iolo]

Wut? So, you're saying that Jesus was a real guy but was a shyster using the placebo effect to pretend to heal people? Or are you saying that you can heal warts by prayer (in a non-placebo way) and therefore Jesus, being the son of God, could do more advanced medical procedures by prayer? Or are you saying something completely different?

I'm really not sure what your argument is, so I don't know how to respond.

No - people who do faith healing normally believe in what they are doing: if they don't, it shows, and the healing doesn't happen. I'm saying, simply, that human brains have much more effect on human bodies than we often suppose.

- - - Updated - - -

I think he's putting forth the common argument that Jesus was a psychosomatic healer.

Didn't know it worked on warts….

Or on corpses. I guess Lazarus was actually just really tired.

You think nobody supposed dead is never found to be still alive? Come ON!

 

[iolo]

I think he's putting forth the common argument that Jesus was a psychosomatic healer.

Didn't know it worked on warts….

Wart-charmers don't advertise, but they are very numerous indeed. My Mother could do it, and she taught me.

 

[Thomas II]

I ask again, Who gained? What brilliant figure invented all these people, and for what gain? If you have no critical training, ask someone who has: every one of these people has an individual style, and unless there were four novelists-before-the-novel available for bribing (by what camel caught in the needle's eye?) where did the camel get them, and how train them up? Plato was a great literary artist, and Socrates is his invention (though undoubtedly there was an historical person of that name). What brilliant writer invented Paul? The beliefs of the past don't belong to now, but showing that is not helped by denying obvious history.

Constantine arguably benefited the most. For what gain? To unify and control the Roman Empire.

 

[Will Wiley]

So what is the evidence to support the claim there was a Historical Jesus?
I'm not aware of any and don't think there is any so this should not take long. ...
Bring it,

This is worth a look.

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/christianity/historical-jesus-t219.html

 

[Horatio Parker]

Go to the source (one of them anyway)

http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/puzzle1.htm

 

[Horatio Parker]

I think he's putting forth the common argument that Jesus was a psychosomatic healer.

Didn't know it worked on warts….

Wart-charmers don't advertise, but they are very numerous indeed. My Mother could do it, and she taught me.

So because some people claim to heal warts through the super fabulous force of the mind, that's evidence for HJ?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

No - people who do faith healing normally believe in what they are doing: if they don't, it shows, and the healing doesn't happen. I'm saying, simply, that human brains have much more effect on human bodies than we often suppose.

Well, that's rather convenient. If it doesn't work, it's not because of any flaw in the process, it's because the person didn't believe enough. It's the communism of medical treatments.

I think he's putting forth the common argument that Jesus was a psychosomatic healer.

Didn't know it worked on warts….

Or on corpses. I guess Lazarus was actually just really tired.

You think nobody supposed dead is never found to be still alive? Come ON!

No, they have. So, you're saying that faith healing doesn't work on corpses and Lazarus wasn't dead, so Jesus didn't resurrect him, correct?

 

[Atheos]

Our bodies naturally fend off warts through our immune system. Warts are commonly caused by viruses that attack the surface of the skin and cause the cells to reproduce too rapidly. It takes a bit of time for the immune system to discover the presence of this viral invasion, but once this happens a healthy immune system will quickly destroy the virus and shed the infected cells (the wart).

The probability that praying over a wart and waiting will result in the wart disappearing are exactly equal to the probability that the wart will disappear if one waits without prayer. Solving for "x" we can remove prayer from the equation and discover (surprise, surprise) that this is not an example of faith healing.

The reason I brought amputation into the mix is because it splendidly illustrates how ineffective faith healing is. Faith healing is always exactly as effective as waiting for the body to heal itself. A headache prayed-over will likely go away eventually. An amputated leg prayed-over will grow back exactly as often as it would grow back if the amputee simply waited for it to do so. Which is never.

 

[James Brown]

"I had a headache, so I took two aspirin and prayed for healing. In a couple of hours, the headache was gone, so that's proof that God heals those who ask for it!"

 

[Thomas II]

Our bodies naturally fend off warts through our immune system. Warts are commonly caused by viruses that attack the surface of the skin and cause the cells to reproduce too rapidly. It takes a bit of time for the immune system to discover the presence of this viral invasion, but once this happens a healthy immune system will quickly destroy the virus and shed the infected cells (the wart).

The probability that praying over a wart and waiting will result in the wart disappearing are exactly equal to the probability that the wart will disappear if one waits without prayer. Solving for "x" we can remove prayer from the equation and discover (surprise, surprise) that this is not an example of faith healing.

The reason I brought amputation into the mix is because it splendidly illustrates how ineffective faith healing is. Faith healing is always exactly as effective as waiting for the body to heal itself. A headache prayed-over will likely go away eventually. An amputated leg prayed-over will grow back exactly as often as it would grow back if the amputee simply waited for it to do so. Which is never.

Also someone might confuse warts with "Actinic Keratosis" . Shortly after treatment, the lesions shrink and/or blister, become crusted and fall off.

http://www.skincancer.org/skin-cancer-information/actinic-keratosis/actinic-keratosis-treatment-options

 

[iolo]

I ask again, Who gained? What brilliant figure invented all these people, and for what gain? If you have no critical training, ask someone who has: every one of these people has an individual style, and unless there were four novelists-before-the-novel available for bribing (by what camel caught in the needle's eye?) where did the camel get them, and how train them up? Plato was a great literary artist, and Socrates is his invention (though undoubtedly there was an historical person of that name). What brilliant writer invented Paul? The beliefs of the past don't belong to now, but showing that is not helped by denying obvious history.

Constantine arguably benefited the most. For what gain? To unify and control the Roman Empire.

Yes - that's when Christianity gave place to authoritarian bullshit - but that it happened at all showed how effective the other thing had been.

 

[iolo]

Wart-charmers don't advertise, but they are very numerous indeed. My Mother could do it, and she taught me.

So because some people claim to heal warts through the super fabulous force of the mind, that's evidence for HJ?

Don't be so soft. The body easily see off warts by the usual processes of resistance, but often doesn't perceive them as alien. You just come up with some codswallop that helps them see it. I can't ever cure my own, naturally. A doctor once, not knowing me well, said 'It's a pity you're such a sceptic, or I could quite easily charm that thing away.'

 

[iolo]

Well, that's rather convenient. If it doesn't work, it's not because of any flaw in the process, it's because the person didn't believe enough. It's the communism of medical treatments.

I think he's putting forth the common argument that Jesus was a psychosomatic healer.

Didn't know it worked on warts….

Or on corpses. I guess Lazarus was actually just really tired.

You think nobody supposed dead is never found to be still alive? Come ON!

No, they have. So, you're saying that faith healing doesn't work on corpses and Lazarus wasn't dead, so Jesus didn't resurrect him, correct?

These things don't work for a whole number of reasons. The problem, for instance, can be totally outside the body's control, or the healer unconvincing, the victim sceptical, anything you please. In the right circumstances, it works well. As to Lazarus, perhaps he wasn't dead, perhaps its pure myth out of folklore, you tell me.

 

[iolo]

Our bodies naturally fend off warts through our immune system. Warts are commonly caused by viruses that attack the surface of the skin and cause the cells to reproduce too rapidly. It takes a bit of time for the immune system to discover the presence of this viral invasion, but once this happens a healthy immune system will quickly destroy the virus and shed the infected cells (the wart).

The probability that praying over a wart and waiting will result in the wart disappearing are exactly equal to the probability that the wart will disappear if one waits without prayer. Solving for "x" we can remove prayer from the equation and discover (surprise, surprise) that this is not an example of faith healing.

The reason I brought amputation into the mix is because it splendidly illustrates how ineffective faith healing is. Faith healing is always exactly as effective as waiting for the body to heal itself. A headache prayed-over will likely go away eventually. An amputated leg prayed-over will grow back exactly as often as it would grow back if the amputee simply waited for it to do so. Which is never.

I've never heard of praying over warts. I never wait - I can see the warts off in a week. My record is seventeen (but out of twenty-three - you can't win 'em all!')

- - - Updated - - -

"I had a headache, so I took two aspirin and prayed for healing. In a couple of hours, the headache was gone, so that's proof that God heals those who ask for it!"

You can shake the right kind of headache out of your eye, at once.

 

[Horatio Parker]

So because some people claim to heal warts through the super fabulous force of the mind, that's evidence for HJ?

Don't be so soft. The body easily see off warts by the usual processes of resistance, but often doesn't perceive them as alien. You just come up with some codswallop that helps them see it. I can't ever cure my own, naturally. A doctor once, not knowing me well, said 'It's a pity you're such a sceptic, or I could quite easily charm that thing away.'

What's the point of this rambling? Can you faith heal verbosity?

 

[Atheos]

I agree. Homey wart remedies has zilch to do with the historicity of a magic Jew who supposedly turned water into wine, defied laws of gravity by walking on storm-tossed water, defied laws of conservation by creating matter (loaves and fishes), fixed neurological issues such as blindness and paralysis with a touch and levitated off into the sky to disappear into the clouds never to be seen again.

 

[iolo]

Don't be so soft. The body easily see off warts by the usual processes of resistance, but often doesn't perceive them as alien. You just come up with some codswallop that helps them see it. I can't ever cure my own, naturally. A doctor once, not knowing me well, said 'It's a pity you're such a sceptic, or I could quite easily charm that thing away.'

What's the point of this rambling? Can you faith heal verbosity?

No, nor tedious ill-manners.

 

[iolo]

I agree. Homey wart remedies has zilch to do with the historicity of a magic Jew who supposedly turned water into wine, defied laws of gravity by walking on storm-tossed water, defied laws of conservation by creating matter (loaves and fishes), fixed neurological issues such as blindness and paralysis with a touch and levitated off into the sky to disappear into the clouds never to be seen again.

Did anyone claim they had?