Derail from GRD : pros and cons on the legalization of drugs

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I wrote this a while back and post it here if any want to actually discuss the ramifications of legalization.

Legalization. We are doing the right thing at the wrong time.

If we legalize cannabis without proper controls, parents lose control of what their children will ingest, --- in terms of the various psychotropic drugs that are here now, --- and coming up in the future. We ain't seen nothing yet.

Legalizing drugs to reduce harm is the logical thing to do. No question. That move must, at some point in time, include all psychotropic drugs, ---if any policy is to work for the best possible end. So says the bible of drugs. The L'Edain Royal Commission Report on Psychotropic drugs. Along with a separate report on Cannabis.

The commission knew that in terms of legislation, Cannabis was in fact the gateway drug so feared by the conservative right. Addition researchers have been writing of cocaine legalization for better than 50 years now. That is why all drugs had to be considered.

Conclusions at page 226. http://www.druglibrary.eu/library/reports/ledaincan.pdf

I do not get hysterical about children and drugs. Teens will be teens. But, as a parent, don't like children whose brains and minds are still developing, --- having access to all varieties of drugs without my consent. Head banging is for mature heads.

The commission found that before legalization took place, we would all have to learn how to use what it called intelligent use of freedom of choice. We have yet to go through that necessary exercise, and if we are to reach the best end we have to.

We adults, have yet to develop our intelligent use of freedom of choice, so we would be fools to think our children are ready for a completely unsupervised system.

Parents should re-think legalization. Should we heavily legislate and control legalization as we learn to control our addictions?

As adults, we need to quickly learn how to express our intelligent use of freedom of choice --- and be a proper example to our children, so that they will know how to do the same.

We must legalize all drugs at some point in time. Justice demands it. But to legalize without control, is a real bad idea. Let's all grow up responsibly together shall we, with rules. Let's remember our priorities.

Our Children should come before our addictions.

Regards
DL

 

[none]

@Gnostic Christian Bishop, I don't think anybody is advocating for legalization of drugs for minors... maybe somebody out there is but you don't have to legalize drugs for children/minors to legalize them for adults.

 

[untermensche]

Fuck the children!

If parents have concerns about their children then take care of your children.

But nobody has the right to say, we will cause all these harms, the millions in jail because of prohibition, the property taken because of prohibition, the abuses to civil rights because of prohibition, the racism of prohibition, because I'm afraid I won't be able to create a child that has some good judgement about drugs.

How many children are in jail because they were found with one of the most dangerous drugs illegally, alcohol?

Prohibitions and all that goes with them to combat drug addiction is like using leaches to fight infection. More than the wrong tool, a tool that causes more harm than good.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I do not get hysterical about children and drugs. Teens will be teens. But, as a parent, don't like children whose brains and minds are still developing, --- having access to all varieties of drugs without my consent.

I don't follow. I am a parent, i don't see how legalizing pot for me makes much of a difference about my kids access to weed? The channels for illicit drugs already exist and are completely beyond my controls. I don't see how legalizing pot for responsible adults makes any change on the availability to the kids who are currently dealing it in the schools?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

@Gnostic Christian Bishop, I don't think anybody is advocating for legalization of drugs for minors... maybe somebody out there is but you don't have to legalize drugs for children/minors to legalize them for adults.

I hear you but the most learned reports on decriminalization and legalization advocate moving from the policing model to the medical model because of the addictive nature of these drugs. In that model, we were to develop intelligent use of our freedom of choice through the medical system. We were not advised to sell to an open market where people are not trained yet to be intelligent in their use.

Especially today when police cannot keep up with the new chemicals being produced and sold to children even on the open market.

If the kids know to protect themselves it is fine but most do not and as a parent, legalization makes it harder to protect my children from potential addiction.

To me, we are moving from a stupid system to an even more stupid one.

Adults are caring more for their right to get intoxicated than their right to be able to keep drugs away from their children.

We are doing the right thing the wrong way from children's POV.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Fuck the children!

If parents have concerns about their children then take care of your children.

But nobody has the right to say, we will cause all these harms, the millions in jail because of prohibition, the property taken because of prohibition, the abuses to civil rights because of prohibition, the racism of prohibition, because I'm afraid I won't be able to create a child that has some good judgement about drugs.

How many children are in jail because they were found with one of the most dangerous drugs illegally, alcohol?

Prohibitions and all that goes with them to combat drug addiction is like using leaches to fight infection. More than the wrong tool, a tool that causes more harm than good.

I agree that prohibition is not the answer. Neither is a wide open system. Have you read the stats on the use of drugs by children. You started with fuck the children and that is exactly what we adults are doing.

We should be operating under intelligent use of freedom of choice but should recognize that children aren't quite there yet and even adults are using drugs stupidly.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I do not get hysterical about children and drugs. Teens will be teens. But, as a parent, don't like children whose brains and minds are still developing, --- having access to all varieties of drugs without my consent.

I don't follow. I am a parent, i don't see how legalizing pot for me makes much of a difference about my kids access to weed? The channels for illicit drugs already exist and are completely beyond my controls. I don't see how legalizing pot for responsible adults makes any change on the availability to the kids who are currently dealing it in the schools?

Have you not heard of kids getting into the home liquor cabinet. If we adults are as bright with our stash ----.

That aside. My concern is not so much pot but the pushers who will now find some other product to sell because we have been too stupid to put all the psychotropic drugs under medical and prescribed supervision. At least that way, if the kids are into the stash, the parents can know it.

That is what the LeDain Royal Commission report recommended and it is considered the Bible on drug issues.

We ignore the experts and put our kids in jeopardy.

Legalize for sure but not the way we are stupidly doing.

Regards
DL

 

[untermensche]

Fuck the children!

If parents have concerns about their children then take care of your children.

But nobody has the right to say, we will cause all these harms, the millions in jail because of prohibition, the property taken because of prohibition, the abuses to civil rights because of prohibition, the racism of prohibition, because I'm afraid I won't be able to create a child that has some good judgement about drugs.

How many children are in jail because they were found with one of the most dangerous drugs illegally, alcohol?

Prohibitions and all that goes with them to combat drug addiction is like using leaches to fight infection. More than the wrong tool, a tool that causes more harm than good.

I agree that prohibition is not the answer. Neither is a wide open system. Have you read the stats on the use of drugs by children. You started with fuck the children and that is exactly what we adults are doing.

We should be operating under intelligent use of freedom of choice but should recognize that children aren't quite there yet and even adults are using drugs stupidly.

Regards
DL

When you start talking about the children we are already giving children massive amounts of drugs.

Marijuana is safer than amphetamine.

 

[none]

@Gnostic Christian Bishop, I don't think anybody is advocating for legalization of drugs for minors... maybe somebody out there is but you don't have to legalize drugs for children/minors to legalize them for adults.

I hear you but the most learned reports on decriminalization and legalization advocate moving from the policing model to the medical model because of the addictive nature of these drugs. In that model, we were to develop intelligent use of our freedom of choice through the medical system. We were not advised to sell to an open market where people are not trained yet to be intelligent in their use.

Especially today when police cannot keep up with the new chemicals being produced and sold to children even on the open market.

If the kids know to protect themselves it is fine but most do not and as a parent, legalization makes it harder to protect my children from potential addiction.

To me, we are moving from a stupid system to an even more stupid one.

Adults are caring more for their right to get intoxicated than their right to be able to keep drugs away from their children.

We are doing the right thing the wrong way from children's POV.

Regards
DL

you are not addressing the main issue: Nobody is advocating giving drugs to children, that is and would still be criminal behavior.
you pontificate without address the main points.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I do not get hysterical about children and drugs. Teens will be teens. But, as a parent, don't like children whose brains and minds are still developing, --- having access to all varieties of drugs without my consent.

I don't follow. I am a parent, i don't see how legalizing pot for me makes much of a difference about my kids access to weed? The channels for illicit drugs already exist and are completely beyond my controls. I don't see how legalizing pot for responsible adults makes any change on the availability to the kids who are currently dealing it in the schools?

Have you not heard of kids getting into the home liquor cabinet. If we adults are as bright with our stash ----.

So....NO ONE should get recreational drugs because some people and/or some people's kids aren't responsible consumers?
Does that work for anything else in the world? Even for things for which we have established ages of access?
Gun ownership certainly isn't handled that way.
A teen in my kids' class drove a high-powered car into a tree, but they didn't yank anyone's driver's license.
When i was little, a high schooler tried to rape a teacher like a scene in a porno he'd stolen from his dad's stash. It didn't lead to massive outbreaks of censorship. NO more than was already in place in South Central Idaho, anyway.

That aside. My concern is not so much pot but the pushers who will now find some other product to sell because we have been too stupid to put all the psychotropic drugs under medical and prescribed supervision.

Some of the drugs available on the market DO require a prescription. If they're going to get the stuff, they're going to get it, no matter what the laws are.

That is what the LeDain Royal Commission report recommended and it is considered the Bible on drug issues.

Um...who considers it The Books on drug issues?
Why should I?
And why should their recommendations make recreational marijuana be treated so differently from alcohol, guns, tobacco, cars....?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Fuck the children!

If parents have concerns about their children then take care of your children.

But nobody has the right to say, we will cause all these harms, the millions in jail because of prohibition, the property taken because of prohibition, the abuses to civil rights because of prohibition, the racism of prohibition, because I'm afraid I won't be able to create a child that has some good judgement about drugs.

How many children are in jail because they were found with one of the most dangerous drugs illegally, alcohol?

Prohibitions and all that goes with them to combat drug addiction is like using leaches to fight infection. More than the wrong tool, a tool that causes more harm than good.

I agree that prohibition is not the answer. Neither is a wide open system. Have you read the stats on the use of drugs by children. You started with fuck the children and that is exactly what we adults are doing.

We should be operating under intelligent use of freedom of choice but should recognize that children aren't quite there yet and even adults are using drugs stupidly.

Regards
DL

When you start talking about the children we are already giving children massive amounts of drugs.

Marijuana is safer than amphetamine.

I agree. At present.
The chemists are not finished creating new strains of Marijuana though and they might not be so benign.
Compare Kush to what you started with if you are a smoker.

But as I said, we have to look at all drugs because black market science is certainly doing that.

That was one of the major reasons that our LeDain Royal Commission Report expanded their mandate to include all drugs.

We all should do the same for our best policy.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I do not get hysterical about children and drugs. Teens will be teens. But, as a parent, don't like children whose brains and minds are still developing, --- having access to all varieties of drugs without my consent.

I don't follow. I am a parent, i don't see how legalizing pot for me makes much of a difference about my kids access to weed? The channels for illicit drugs already exist and are completely beyond my controls. I don't see how legalizing pot for responsible adults makes any change on the availability to the kids who are currently dealing it in the schools?

Have you not heard of kids getting into the home liquor cabinet. If we adults are as bright with our stash ----.

So....NO ONE should get recreational drugs because some people and/or some people's kids aren't responsible consumers?
Does that work for anything else in the world? Even for things for which we have established ages of access?
Gun ownership certainly isn't handled that way.
A teen in my kids' class drove a high-powered car into a tree, but they didn't yank anyone's driver's license.
When i was little, a high schooler tried to rape a teacher like a scene in a porno he'd stolen from his dad's stash. It didn't lead to massive outbreaks of censorship. NO more than was already in place in South Central Idaho, anyway.

That aside. My concern is not so much pot but the pushers who will now find some other product to sell because we have been too stupid to put all the psychotropic drugs under medical and prescribed supervision.

Some of the drugs available on the market DO require a prescription. If they're going to get the stuff, they're going to get it, no matter what the laws are.

That is what the LeDain Royal Commission report recommended and it is considered the Bible on drug issues.

Um...who considers it The Books on drug issues?
Why should I?
And why should their recommendations make recreational marijuana be treated so differently from alcohol, guns, tobacco, cars....?

"So....NO ONE should get recreational drugs"

Where and who said such an idiotic statement? Let me at him.

Regards
DL

 

[Keith&Co.]

"So....NO ONE should get recreational drugs"

Where and who said such an idiotic statement? Let me at him.

That was how i understood you positing prescribed and medical standards. No one goes to a doctor for access to recreational tobacco, alcohol or sex.
Did you mean that we'd go through a doctor's office to get a permission slip for weed?
Why? Aside from burdening the health care system and paying a middleman, what benefit is there with the added steps?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

"So....NO ONE should get recreational drugs"

Where and who said such an idiotic statement? Let me at him.

That was how i understood you positing prescribed and medical standards. No one goes to a doctor for access to recreational tobacco, alcohol or sex.
Did you mean that we'd go through a doctor's office to get a permission slip for weed?
Why? Aside from burdening the health care system and paying a middleman, what benefit is there with the added steps?

My children, like many, used to rob my carton of smokes and my liquor cabinet.

I had not idea how much was being consumed. It happens that I was lucky and they did not overdo or get into more than the usual growing up troubles.

Children will do the same with a parents stash of pot or any other drug in the house. You will likely be aware of how the kids have their pit parties today where they just throw all kings of drugs in a bowl and away they go.

Parents can be aware of problem, as well as their doctor, if the refills get out of sync with the usual prescription consumption.

Do you think that a good system for monitoring drugs?

Parents seem to as it give them some control of what their children consume.

Why not do the same with pot and hash and all other drugs that come up automatically.

Remember that as we speak, police cannot keep up with the various designer drugs that end up being sold at the corner store for months before people wise up and ban them.

Why not end all that uncertainty and give parents the control they seek?

Regards
DL

 

[Keith&Co.]

"So....NO ONE should get recreational drugs"

Where and who said such an idiotic statement? Let me at him.

That was how i understood you positing prescribed and medical standards. No one goes to a doctor for access to recreational tobacco, alcohol or sex.
Did you mean that we'd go through a doctor's office to get a permission slip for weed?
Why? Aside from burdening the health care system and paying a middleman, what benefit is there with the added steps?

My children, <anecdote snipped>

Are you talking about making recreational drugs prescription-restricted, yes or no?

If no, what ARE you talking about doing to allow legal access to recreational drugs?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

"So....NO ONE should get recreational drugs"

Where and who said such an idiotic statement? Let me at him.

That was how i understood you positing prescribed and medical standards. No one goes to a doctor for access to recreational tobacco, alcohol or sex.
Did you mean that we'd go through a doctor's office to get a permission slip for weed?
Why? Aside from burdening the health care system and paying a middleman, what benefit is there with the added steps?

My children, <anecdote snipped>

Are you talking about making recreational drugs prescription-restricted, yes or no?

If no, what ARE you talking about doing to allow legal access to recreational drugs?

Prescription restricted? Yes. To adults.

We have restriction on alcohol and I see no reason to not have them on other psychotropic drugs.

My question to you is would you make drugs available to children?
If not, what restrictions would you liker to see?

Regards
DL

 

[Tom Sawyer]

My question to you is would you make drugs available to children?

Is there anyone in favour of legalization who is in favour of that? If so, who?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Prescription restricted? Yes. To adults.

We have restriction on alcohol and I see no reason to not have them on other psychotropic drugs.

But we don't require prescriptions for recreational use of alcohol or tobacco. That's kinda why it's called 'recreational.' It's not to fill a medical need.
No one here but you is talking about selling recreational drugs to children.

How about, you identify one product that you think is controlled in the manner you'd like to see pot controlled. Rather than throwing around terms that you seem to have an idiomatic usage for.

My question to you is would you make drugs available to children?

I think several in this thread have made it clear that NO ONE is talking about making 'drugs' available to children. 'Cept you.

If not, what restrictions would you liker to see?

I'm still trying to figure out the restrictions you're suggesting. You're not advancing prohibition, but you keep using terms that are not preventing kids from getting their hands on the stuff.
My kid comes home from college and talks about what others on his dorm floor did with alcohol, pot, LSD, their mom's prescriptions, bongs and cigarettes.
What model would you use?

- - - Updated - - -

My question to you is would you make drugs available to children?

Is there anyone in favour of legalization who is in favour of that? If so, who?

I'm sure Self-Mutation's The Atheist would have been.
Oh, and his cancer researchers! Party FREAKS, those guys.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

My question to you is would you make drugs available to children?

Is there anyone in favour of legalization who is in favour of that? If so, who?

I'm sure Self-Mutation's The Atheist would have been.
Oh, and his cancer researchers! Party FREAKS, those guys.

OK, point taken. That man's rhetorical genius did always tie us in knots and leave us weeping in embarrassment over the baseless remains of our skewered positions.

 

[James Brown]

My question to you is would you make drugs available to children?

Is there anyone in favour of legalization who is in favour of that? If so, who?

I'm sure Self-Mutation's The Atheist would have been.
Oh, and his cancer researchers! Party FREAKS, those guys.

OK, point taken. That man's rhetorical genius did always tie us in knots and leave us weeping in embarrassment over the baseless remains of our skewered positions.

And yet . . . . he's missed.