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Social mobility higher in Europe??

Loren Pechtel

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It's an interesting study that implies nature is more important than nurture in life outcomes. In other words, pouring money into a family that's been stuck in the cycle of poverty for decades isn't necessarily going to raise them out of that poverty.

I'd be interested in reading critiques of the paper, but my guess is that the main critique is that they're equivocating 'small difference' between the US and Scandinavia and 'no difference (in the paper they use the words 'no significant difference'). Their could be only a small difference, but if that difference is consistent to countries with a welfare state, then the cumulative effect over several centuries or even millennia might be very significant.

In any case, I'm always skeptical of people who write papers looking for results, rather than lack thereof. I looked briefly for actual critiques, or repeats of the study, but came up empty-handed.
 
It's an interesting study that implies nature is more important than nurture in life outcomes. In other words, pouring money into a family that's been stuck in the cycle of poverty for decades isn't necessarily going to raise them out of that poverty.

I'd be interested in reading critiques of the paper, but my guess is that the main critique is that they're equivocating 'small difference' between the US and Scandinavia and 'no difference (in the paper they use the words 'no significant difference'). Their could be only a small difference, but if that difference is consistent to countries with a welfare state, then the cumulative effect over several centuries or even millennia might be very significant.

In any case, I'm always skeptical of people who write papers looking for results, rather than lack thereof. I looked briefly for actual critiques, or repeats of the study, but came up empty-handed.

Or that pouring money in isn't the route to fixing the problem.
 
It's an interesting study that implies nature is more important than nurture in life outcomes. In other words, pouring money into a family that's been stuck in the cycle of poverty for decades isn't necessarily going to raise them out of that poverty.

I'd be interested in reading critiques of the paper, but my guess is that the main critique is that they're equivocating 'small difference' between the US and Scandinavia and 'no difference (in the paper they use the words 'no significant difference'). Their could be only a small difference, but if that difference is consistent to countries with a welfare state, then the cumulative effect over several centuries or even millennia might be very significant.

In any case, I'm always skeptical of people who write papers looking for results, rather than lack thereof. I looked briefly for actual critiques, or repeats of the study, but came up empty-handed.

Or that pouring money in isn't the route to fixing the problem.
Same thing.
 
The cited paper focuses on Denmark and no other country in Europe, so the OP title is very misleading.
 
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...snt-alive-in-denmark/494141/?single_page=true

Not so fast there--it's a figment of the data. Their taxation system compresses the economic spectrum more so it looks like they have more mobility. However, their pre-tax mobility looks much like ours. Their system is no better at truly changing the things that hold people back.

If I understand this study correctly they only look at education. Ie whether or not the parents pass on their level of degree to their kids. He didn't actually look at income. Since intelligence is highly heritable it makes sense.

Still doesn't make it more fair that people who won the genetic lottery make more money.

I've moved to Denmark recently. One major effect of the system is that people from all classes mix freely. People truly do not give a fuck what your social status is Denmark. Everybody is approachable by anybody. I'm not sure what they have in the water that does this. Sweden is not like t
 
Social mobility typically refers to income. The gap between high income earners and the rest of the working population has been steadily growing for decades. I think it's reached the point of absurdity. It's out of control.
 
Social mobility typically refers to income. The gap between high income earners and the rest of the working population has been steadily growing for decades. I think it's reached the point of absurdity. It's out of control.

Hmm... that's mostly magic with numbers. There's different levels of income so people have differently big slices of the cake. What has happened is that industrialization made the cake much bigger. And the computer revolution made that cake massive (and it's only growing). Just because the rich are getting more and more doesn't mean the poor are getting less and less. The poorest have never before in history had it so good.

I'm no libertarian. But even I feel the need to call leftist bullshit when I see it. The fact that people are rich isn't the problem. The problem is that it tends to lead to other stuff. It's that tendency we use policy to fix.
 
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...snt-alive-in-denmark/494141/?single_page=true

Not so fast there--it's a figment of the data. Their taxation system compresses the economic spectrum more so it looks like they have more mobility. However, their pre-tax mobility looks much like ours. Their system is no better at truly changing the things that hold people back.

If I understand this study correctly they only look at education. Ie whether or not the parents pass on their level of degree to their kids. He didn't actually look at income. Since intelligence is highly heritable it makes sense.

Still doesn't make it more fair that people who won the genetic lottery make more money.

I've moved to Denmark recently. One major effect of the system is that people from all classes mix freely. People truly do not give a fuck what your social status is Denmark. Everybody is approachable by anybody. I'm not sure what they have in the water that does this. Sweden is not like t

They're also looking at gross income--and finding it a lot like the US. It's just the high tax rates compress the scale and make things look more even than they really are.
 
If I understand this study correctly they only look at education. Ie whether or not the parents pass on their level of degree to their kids. He didn't actually look at income. Since intelligence is highly heritable it makes sense.

Still doesn't make it more fair that people who won the genetic lottery make more money.

I've moved to Denmark recently. One major effect of the system is that people from all classes mix freely. People truly do not give a fuck what your social status is Denmark. Everybody is approachable by anybody. I'm not sure what they have in the water that does this. Sweden is not like t

They're also looking at gross income--and finding it a lot like the US. It's just the high tax rates compress the scale and make things look more even than they really are.

Since the income people actually see is not gross but taxed, what difference does it make what the gross looks like compared to the US? Progressive taxation as a means to greater social mobility is a feature, not a bug.
 
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...snt-alive-in-denmark/494141/?single_page=true

Not so fast there--it's a figment of the data. Their taxation system compresses the economic spectrum more so it looks like they have more mobility. However, their pre-tax mobility looks much like ours. Their system is no better at truly changing the things that hold people back.

Civilization will continue to decay unless we abolish the privileges of inheritance, trust funds, and living off an allowance in college.
 
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...snt-alive-in-denmark/494141/?single_page=true

Not so fast there--it's a figment of the data. Their taxation system compresses the economic spectrum more so it looks like they have more mobility. However, their pre-tax mobility looks much like ours. Their system is no better at truly changing the things that hold people back.

Civilization will continue to decay unless we abolish the privileges of inheritance, trust funds, and living off an allowance in college.

Inheritance is rarely a factor in how one turns out economically for the simple reason that most people have already cast their economic dice before inheriting a penny. And the rest of your list is a matter of how easy or hard it is to pay for college, not whether it's possible to go to college.
 
I'm sure that makes them feel better as they go to bed hungry.

I'm no libertarian.

Uh huh, sure.

If you look at the numbers. 50 years ago that was an accurate description of the poorest. Iron age technologies and a constant struggle. Today, belonging to the poorest people means having a fridge, a TV and a phone. The latter people are not going to bed hungry. They're more often struggling with obesity issues.

What it means to be poor needs to be upgraded for this millinea, or we will employ the wrong policies.
 
Social mobility typically refers to income. The gap between high income earners and the rest of the working population has been steadily growing for decades. I think it's reached the point of absurdity. It's out of control.

Hmm... that's mostly magic with numbers.

The stats represent actual incomes, actual wealth and actual growing disparity between those at the top of the heap and the rest of us.

There's different levels of income so people have differently big slices of the cake. [/QWhat has happened is that industrialization made the cake much bigger.

I don't think that anyone is complaining about higher pay for higher qualifications and responsibility, lawyers, surgeons, managers, etc.

The problem is the ratio and the gap between on the highest incomes has been growing ever wider in recent decades. The stats show that incomes of CEO"s for example have risen by multiples over average wages....which was not the case a few decades ago.


I'm no libertarian. But even I feel the need to call leftist bullshit when I see it. The fact that people are rich isn't the problem. The problem is that it tends to lead to other stuff. It's that tendency we use policy to fix.

Whatever the solution, the growing disparity between the very wealthy and ordinary workers has to be addressed at some point in the near future.

US figures for example;

Federal income data over the past 20 years show a growing divide in income among all age groups. Bankrate's analysis of the data reveals that the 65-plus age group has the widest income gap. But the income gap is growing fastest among 35- to 44-year-olds.

Average incomes in the U.S.
The yawning divide shows one-fifth of American households earning $11,490 annually on average; the next fifth earning $29,696; the middle tier earning $51,179; the next rung up, $82,098; and the top tier, $181,905. Top 5 percent of American households earn $318,052 on average.

The bigger the income gap in a group, the greater the disparity between rich and poor. The gap can grow if there's an increase in population of high earners, for example, and it can grow if there's a rise in the number of poor people. It can also be a combination of both.

''Labor unions have been eviscerated. Fifty years ago, when General Motors was the largest employer in America, the typical GM worker, backed by a strong union, earned $35 an hour in today’s dollars.

Now America’s largest employer is Wal-Mart, and the typical entry-level Wal-Mart worker, without a union, earns about $9 an hour.

More states have adopted so-called “right-to-work” laws, designed to bust unions. The National Labor Relations Board, understaffed and overburdened, has barely enforced collective bargaining.

All of these changes have resulted in higher corporate profits, higher returns for shareholders and higher pay for top corporate executives and Wall Street bankers – and lower pay and higher prices for most other Americans.

They amount to a giant pre-distribution upward to the rich. But we’re not aware of them because they’re hidden inside the market.''
 
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