Does "Rape Culture" exist?

[The Paul]

Well if rape culture doesn't refer to a conscious force then we are giving a different label to the same phenomena, which is the resultant of a sexual society. In that case the fight is largely against human nature. But again, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be done, but rather that in reality it's pretty hard, and probably unending.

The options are not "conscious force" and "human nature"

Other forces exist.

 

[rousseau]

The options are not "conscious force" and "human nature"

Other forces exist.

Go on..

 

[The Paul]

Go on..

Well, and this is just the most relevant example, not the only one, any given culture is neither a conscious force nor human nature.

 

[bigfield]

see other post: typing with stitches in r. hand so expct typos, etc. and brevity. apologies. it hurts a bit and i shouldnt overuse.

That's fine - if you choose not to reply until your hand is better I won't hold it against you.

Women are less valued in most societies. Even in U.S. where women earn less for same work, where it is assumed they will take leave, etc. to care for kids, blah blah: see other threads for evidence of this.

I disagree with your conclusion for a number of reasons.

1. The evidence regarding pay discrimination is inconclusive. The reports I've seen (which includes the DOJ report by CONSAD) are unable to compare same work, just similar work. And the percentage pay difference that is not explained by differences in work and employee value (e.g. experience) is not confirmed to be the result of gendered pay discrimination.
   At most, what the reports do is allow one to form a hypothesis that gendered pay discrimination is an explanation for part of the remaining gap. Without more granular data one cannot conclude that women are in fact paid less for the same work, and that such a discrepancy isn't explainable by differences in pay negotiation.
2. If it is true that women do, on average, take more leave than men, then it makes sense to predict that future female employees are also more likely than male employees to take more leave. Insurance companies make this prediction all the time about their clients: young men are expected to have bigger, more costly crashes, therefore their premiums are much higher than young women's, or anyone over 25.
3. The topic of pay doesn't have anything to do with rape.

Women are blamed/blame themselves for domestic violence in general. Laws now often mandate someone will go to jail on any dom. violence call, meaning some will not report because they don't want jail for abuser just for abuse to stop.

Who blames women, besides themselves? The police don't blame them; the justice system doesn't blame them; the people in support of White Ribbon and other charities focused on female DV victims don't blame them.

And how do you explain the situation of men in DV? A large number of DV cases are reciprocal or the women is the sole abuser. How do you explain the scarcity of support for male DV victims? Are female victims blamed more than male victims? Do laws such as Canada's predominant aggressor policy automatically implicate one party as the instigator?

Police sometimes reluctant to take calls seriously as conflictd or frightened victims are sometimes not very cooperative.

I'd like to know more about this. What are the police supposed to do that they are currently failing to do?

Allegations of rape in military are discounted, not followed up, etc. to large degree, reflecting what happens outside of military.

How do you know the military's culture is a reflection of wider society? If anything it would seem that military culture is quite different from outside it. Do you have evidence that the police do not follow up rape claims?

Many cultures girl babies less valued, more likely to be aborted based on gender, abandoned, sold.

I am aware of China's problem where parents choose to abort or abandon female children because they would rather have a boy for the single child they are allowed to have. As I understand it this stems from China's family traditions, where parents are expected to provide for daughters until they are married off, while sons are expected to reciprocate care for their parents, as well as their wife and children. Having a sons makes it more likely that elders will have someone to care for them.

I am guessing this practice occurs in other countries as well although I have not read about it.

How does this relate to rape culture?

Sex trafficking more girls/women than males.

Well yes, it makes sense that sex trafficking would lead to rape. And it makes sense that most of the slaves are women, as female sex slaves are in greater demand, just as there is greater demand for female prostitutes.

Where is sex trafficking legal/condoned?

Those in power are more likely to be immune from prosecution or even suspicion. Power: physical, sometimes, political-yes, economic-yes.

I agree that those with money, who can afford excellent legal protection, are harder to prosecute. I agree that those who have political connections are harder to prosecute. I would like to see some evidence that those who are physically more powerful are sometimes harder to prosecute (are you referring to "star" athletes like the Steubenville case and others? If so then physical power is not the point; such individuala have political power).

Still more legislators and more judges, more police are male, sympathize/identify with males.

You can't assume that men sympathise with men and not women. You need to provide evidence of this.

Team mates (includes fellow officers, etc) protect each other.

That makes sense. People in general will cover for their friends; when those people are in positions of authority, such protection results results in injustices.

What has this got to do with rape, that can't also be said about many other crimes?

Society is distinct from individuals. Never said everybody--just society in general. Both romantacized (see lots of films, tv, books) as 'pity women who are all weak powerless victims' and rape in these as 'entertainment' and 'storytelling.'

Contrast with how universities fail to protect victims, discourage victims from reporting to police,

On FRDB we had discussion about UGA and other universities which expelled students for sexual assault, even in the absence of police charges. It would seem that universities have a variety of approaches to rape reports, and are not consistent.

how often charges are not brought, enormous backlog of rape kits, etc. Lots of 'she was asking for it-or she wouldnt have gone there, dressed like that, been drinking, kissed him, led him on, etc. LOTS of victim blaming.

I agree with you on the victim blaming. For one thing, there is evidence that clothing has the opposite effect than one would expect: more conservative clothing indicates lower confidence, and therefore an easier target.

There is a grey area with regards to drunken sex and consent. It is not a simple matter--from the perspective of an investigator--to differentiate between someone who appeared to consent but was in fact too drunk to give meaningful consent, and someone who was drunk but still capable of giving meaningful consent. It would be wrong to prosecute everyone who initiates drunken sex, because it is not necessarily rape. There is also the problem of the small minority of claimants who lie--their existence means that authorities cannot simply prosecute based on the claimants testimony alone.

Why is there a backlog of rape kits? Are you suggesting that the authorities are not interested in speeding up the process?

How often aren't charges brought? Why aren't charges brought? Do police not care, or is there a lack of evidence required to press charges?

 

[Sajara]

Re: the whole drunk sex thing.

Isn't this the same thing as 'use protection', but in a more round-about way.

Men know that a drunk girl may turn around and play the rape red card...whether or not she actually wanted to have sex or was/wasn't too drunk at the time. Better for a man to hold off, get the girl's number, and try again some other time when she isn't drunk, can tell you for sure if she wants sex...no?

 

[bigfield]

Men know that a drunk girl may turn around and play the rape red card...whether or not she actually wanted to have sex or was/wasn't too drunk at the time. Better for a man to hold off, get the girl's number, and try again some other time when she isn't drunk, can tell you for sure if she wants sex...no?

I agree that is a more sensible course of action, but not taking such precautions isn't automatically a criminal act.

 

[Derec]

Men know that a drunk girl may turn around and play the rape red card...whether or not she actually wanted to have sex or was/wasn't too drunk at the time. Better for a man to hold off, get the girl's number, and try again some other time when she isn't drunk, can tell you for sure if she wants sex...no?

How is that any different than saying that women should not wear revealing clothing if they don't want to get raped?

 

[PJPSYCO]

Re: the whole drunk sex thing.

Isn't this the same thing as 'use protection', but in a more round-about way.

Men know that a drunk girl may turn around and play the rape red card...whether or not she actually wanted to have sex or was/wasn't too drunk at the time. Better for a man to hold off, get the girl's number, and try again some other time when she isn't drunk, can tell you for sure if she wants sex...no?

The OP was drunk at the time. The girl took advantage of this. What do we do in cases where the girl gets the man drunk and takes advantage of this to have hookup sex, regret it, and then ruin his life for it? Your blaming the victim.

 

[Derec]

Bureau of Labor Statistics, MIT, DOJ and others disagree, vehemently.

Care to provide a link to a report that actually adjusts for all the things I mentioned. For example the recent NYT article about wage discrepancy in the White House admits, despite themselves, that they were not comparing "equal work" at all and that the discrepancy actually comes from men and women doing different jobs at the White House.

In fact, in recent years, many academic institutions have settled suits and adjusted pay rates precisely due to different pay offered to females vs males, with exactly the same qualifications, teaching loads, research and other responsibilities. Just to lay to rest that the jobs are not the same.

Unfortunately in the US civil case system many innocent parties will settle rather than pursue a case to trial because costs of defending a civil suit are high and burden of proof is low (meaning many false positives). So that can't be used as proof of anything.

Your math is wrong. Men can and should be provided paid family leave. Women should be provided paid maternity leave just as all should have paid medical leave.

Of course men and women should be provided family leave. But if more women than men take years off for family it is not sexist discrimination that these women, which have less experience, also get paid less on average. If you demand men and women be paid absolutely equally regardless of this you end up punishing men on average.

Lying is not gender specific.

It is not. But often it is demanded that women's claims be believed implicitly as if they were incapable of lying. "Women don't lie about rape" is an old radfem canard.

I've mentioned before that I live in a small community which publishes police and court reports. Women are frequently arrested for domestic violence. However, it is rare that a woman seriously injures a man. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true.

How frequently is "frequently" and how rare is "rare". There is definite bias in favor of women when it comes to domestic violence. Even though Marissa Alexander shot toward her husband and his two small children and later, while on bail, she went to her husband's house and attacked him again she is widely considered a "victim" and not perpetrator. When a woman murders her husband of boyfriend it is widely assumed that he must have done something to justify it which helps women like Mary Winkler get away with their crimes. All this are symptoms of a society that overvalues women rather than devaluing them.

Yeah, I guess he didn't put his threats to kill her in writing. So it must not have happened.

The burden of proof in criminal cases is "beyond a reasonable doubt", not "it might have happened". Of course she might be telling the truth. On the other hand, she might be lying. Absent real proof there is no way to tell and it's thus inappropriate to convict. They both should be convicted of adultery (filing a criminal complaint should not give one immunity for other criminal acts!) or even better, the whole adultery statute should be repealed.

One of my kids was in the army and talked a great deal of the culture on base. It was bad enough that when we visited as a family, before we arrived, he was adamant that his teenaged sister would go NO WHERE on base without being accompanied by her brothers. Plural. In daylight.

I do not know how to respond to this anecdote. He might have had a legitimate fear or he might be just the proverbial overprotective older brother. I know neither him nor his base. I just know that if there is a specific complaint guilt should not be presumed.

Ignoring the sexism that still exists and pointing fingers at cultures which show greater discrimination is not helpful. Not by a long shot.

Remember that you were the one who brought these other cultures up.

It has nothing to do with the fact that women and girls are less valued, are seen as a commodity by some, whose only value is as a sex worker? Bull shit.

Some people see people as commodities, period. They will value males more for physical labor because of (on average) greater strength and value females more for sex work because of greater demand for female prostitutes.

Most who work in the sex trade do so because they have or feel they have no other choices.

That describes a great deal of non-sex work jobs as well. How many people work for McDonald's even though they have (or feel they have) better choices? The real question is if they have entered and stay in sex-work of their own volition of if they are forced into it. I only see a fundamental problem with forced prostitution.

Either physical force or economic conditions place them in harms way. Includes male sex workers, btw. Unfortunately, this is not just true in underdeveloped countries but is a serious issue in my very blue state.

Unfortunately many anti-trafficking organizations lump all prostitution in as "trafficking" either for ideological reasons or merely to inflate numbers and increase their fundraising and influence. And yes, of course there are male sex workers - just a lot fewer. But both men and women should have the right to both be sex-workers if they so chose and to use services of sex-workers. Sensible regulation for safety and health should be implemented but not a wholesale ban as we have now in most areas.

Eh, the behavior of the 'friends' certainly suggests that they thought she was too drunk to escape.

What behavior in particular?

In other words, too drunk. Since the campus police and police dept. refused to investigate, there is no BAC on file.

Wrong, they did investigate. The DAs office declined to prosecute after months of investigation though. And the link I posted clearly showed that a tox report was released and it showed that she wasn't intoxicated.

Recent articles on military rape:

I do not deny rapes in the military happen. However those accused should still enjoy presumption of innocence and due process rights. Just because somebody (like the army commander) doesn't get convicted based on weak evidence doesn't mean it's an example of "rape culture".

 

[laughing dog]

How is that any different than saying that women should not wear revealing clothing if they don't want to get raped?

I think you need to show how the two are similar.

 

[Derec]

I think you need to show how the two are similar.

"If women don't want to get raped they shouldn't X"
"If men don't want to get falsely accused of rape they shouldn't Y"

 

[Sajara]

How is that any different than saying that women should not wear revealing clothing if they don't want to get raped?

It is about making smart choices. I am not saying you should blame the victims for how they dressed or that they were taken advantage of when drunk (whether they are male or female really shouldn't matter).

Still, I also wouldn't advise walking through an active mine field either.

If you have a kid that goes to a club, do you tell them not to worry about their drinks? There is a time for feeling safe and free to do what you want to do, and a time to be a little more guarded. There are dangers in our world. This is a reality we must all live with. Being smart and cautious tends to keep us going longer.

There will always be predators out there in one form or another. That doesn't mean we can't be safe and free to do as we please, it just means we have to be smart about it. Go to parties using the buddy system and in a group. Watch each-other's backs and drinks.

To tie it back to the OP...yes there is a rape culture. Rape happens in our culture. We need to work to fight this and make it happen less, but it will always be a possibility I fear.

 

[fromderinside]

Your position is sexist and nonsensical. Just because a woman says she did not consent does not mean she didn't consent. It might come as a great shock to you but women are just as capable of lying as men are.
And "he said she said" does not have to involve dispute over consent anyway. In the Duke case they (three "he"s) said no sex took place whatsoever. "She" said she was raped. The "he"s told the truth, "she" was lying.

There is no point in considering what he said. She said she didn't consent. There was sex, if there was bruising then she probably didn't consent. I'm never in favor of anyone putting damage on another even is it is requested. Again, when is the last time you found a case where where one of two persons requested being struck was considered was an accepted defense? The only one accepting sperm which can alter her life, if not already contracted, is the woman.

My view that physical consequences demand the one who must endure the consequences be given recourse. The one causing the the consequents must always be the one liable for punishment. I've never seen why a person who agresses should be considered for lesser penalty if the ong aggressed against prepares to defend oneself. I see this as essentially the same as a woman claiming rape, claiming she prepared to defend herself, after the fact publicly.

All I'm trying to do here is is align consequences for physical act to the one causing the consequences ) physical damage, pregnancy) with the causing party.

 

[laughing dog]

"If women don't want to get raped they shouldn't X"
"If men don't want to get falsely accused of rape they shouldn't Y"

I see. Because the standard of "revealing clothes" is so much clearer and obvious than "drunk". Thanks for showing that the culture of rape apologia has yet to disappear.

 

[Derec]

There is no point in considering what he said.

Pretty much sums up the attitude of radical feminists, and not only about rape.

 

[Derec]

I see. Because the standard of "revealing clothes" is so much clearer and obvious than "drunk". Thanks for showing that the culture of rape apologia has yet to disappear.

It's the same concept of blaming the victim of what happened to them (getting raped or being falsely accused of rape). Thanks for showing that the culture of false rape accusation apologia has yet to disappear, by the way.

 

[laughing dog]

It's the same concept of blaming the victim of what happened to them (getting raped or being falsely accused of rape).

No, it isn't, because the standard of "revealing clothing" is nebulous.

Thanks for showing that the culture of false rape accusation apologia has yet to disappear, by the way.

Since our discussion was not about false accusations of rape, your comment is a perfect example of a straw man.

 

[Derec]

No, it isn't, because the standard of "revealing clothing" is nebulous.

So is the mutual level of intoxication.

Since our discussion was not about false accusations of rape, your comment is a perfect example of a straw man.

It is a legitimate part of the discussions of whether there is a "rape culture".

 

[dystopian]

It is a legitimate part of the discussions of whether there is a "rape culture".

Says who?

A idiot white guy can barge into an anti-racism talk and starts shouting that 'he's not racist, he just gets falsely accused of being one'; but that doesn't fucking mean it's a legitimate part of the discussion as to whether there's a culture of racism. Similarly, a guy with a known obsession regarding false rape claims can walk into a thread about rape culture and start shouting out his usual rhetoric about guys being falsely accused of rape, but that doesn't mean his words constitute a legitimate part of the discussion as to whether or not there is a rape culture.

 

[Derec]

Says who?

It's irrelevant about who says it but why. The argument "rape culture" proponents use is how accusations of rape are treated and they presuppose that all of them should be believed. But given the reality of false rape allegations that is certainly not the case - evidence is needed.

A idiot white guy can barge into an anti-racism talk and starts shouting that 'he's not racist, he just gets falsely accused of being one'; but that doesn't fucking mean it's a legitimate part of the discussion as to whether there's a culture of racism.

Good example. What constitutes legitimate charges of racism vs. bogus ones is an important distinction when discussing whether there is a "culture of racism". For example do you think correcting black students' grammar is a racist microaggression? Do you think opposition to so-called "affirmative action" is racist? Does answering "no" to these questions make you an "idiot white guy"? Important things to discuss if the topic of "racism culture" is discussed. I would say there is about as much bullshit in discussions of "rape culture" as there is about "culture of racism", while I do of course recognize that there still exists actual rape or racism.