Does "Rape Culture" exist?

[Loren Pechtel]

When your obsessive standards regarding 'evidence of rape' go so far as to commit further emotional trauma on the victim by delegitimizing their experiences (among the many other psychological consequences of basically accusing a rape victim that she made the whole thing up a priori), and do not even serve the purpose of getting closer to the truth or preventing the punishment of innocent people (as the courts and police are subject to evidence to begin with); then it is your moral and intellectual duty to recognize you're part of the fucking problem, Derec.

False rape allegations exist. In a false rape allegation she generally *DID* make it up a priori. While I'm not aware of any good data on the false allegation rate it seems to be in the 8%-50% range.

If you don't investigate the possibility that the allegation is false then you're being unfair to the accused.

 

[Bronzeage]

False rape allegations exist. In a false rape allegation she generally *DID* make it up a priori. While I'm not aware of any good data on the false allegation rate it seems to be in the 8%-50% range.

If you don't investigate the possibility that the allegation is false then you're being unfair to the accused.

8% to 50% of what number?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

8% to 50% of what number?

Of the number of people you've raped in their social circle. Women like to conform to what their friends are doing, so if four or five women in a group are complaining about how you raped them, you're likely going to have at least one unfairly accuse you of raping her just so she can fit in.

Lying bitches

 

[Bronzeage]

Of the number of people you've raped in their social circle. Women like to conform to what their friends are doing, so if four or five women in a group are complaining about how you raped them, you're likely going to have at least one unfairly accuse you of raping her just so she can fit in.

Lying bitches

Fear of women and fear of the power they exercise through their sexuality is a fascinating study.

 

[Derec]

Shift the goal posts much?

No.

And, more importantly, I think most people would agree that being raped is much worse than falsely being accused of rape.

Being raped does not bring you in danger of being falsely imprisoned for years or decades. Being falsely accused of rape does.

 

[laughing dog]

Being raped does not bring you in danger of being falsely imprisoned for years or decades. Being falsely accused of rape does.

Being raped one to immediate physical danger (including death), deadly stds, years of mental anguish and shame, and, if the victim is a woman and the rapist a man, dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. Call me crazy, but I'd take a false accusation of rape over being raped anytime. My guess is that just about anyone would make the same choice if forced. But your response is just another example of the "rape apologia" subculture in the US with its minimization of the ordeal and trauma that rape victims endure.

 

[dystopian]

Now, complaining about what a prude dystopian is isn't gonna help you here. You said what you said and accusing others of prudishness isn't going to change it.

That bit amused me more than anything. Me, prudish?

 

[dystopian]

False rape allegations exist. In a false rape allegation she generally *DID* make it up a priori.

Irrelevant to the fucking point I was making. It doesn't matter if in SOME cases the 'victim' made the whole thing up a priori. What matters is people's attitudes that cause them to dismiss a person's victimhood solely on the basis that 'some' people make the whole rape thing up. I don't give a shit that you or derec feel that not investigating the possibility that the allegation is false is being unfair to the accused, because in fact that possibility is already being investigated... by experts who have the training and know-how to do so. It's not *your* job, nor mine, to keep that possibility open.

When someone states that they went through a traumatic experience, particularly one likely to leave long-term emotional and psychological scars, any decent human being should respond by believing them and showing them *sympathy*. Imagine yourself in the shoes of the victim for a moment, and people find out that you're claiming you got raped. How would *you* feel if people around you acted like you probably made the whole thing up because that's what some people have done in the past? It would only serve to cause you more emotional damage when you're in an immensely vulnerable position. It is the sort of thing that causes people to *commit suicide*.

As society, we should simply believe the victim and show them support until or unless it is proven they made the whole thing. This has the highest chance of avoiding more harm. Especially when as a society, you enact some sensible rules about the media not acting like a bunch of fucking vultures and publicize the whole thing before there's an actual verdict.

While I'm not aware of any good data on the false allegation rate it seems to be in the 8%-50% range.

translation: "I don't actually have any reason to believe this, but it seems to be in the 'made up numbers' range.

And 8-50% range? You might as well have said the 1-100%. What a completely useless range!

 

[Metaphor]

I would not take a successful false accusation of rape over being raped (though I don't know how often they're successful).

A successful false accusation would lead to prison time, being raped in prison multiple times, and, upon exit from prison, permanent exclusion from meaningful employment and being a registered sex offender for life.

 

[Underseer]

Irrelevant to the fucking point I was making. It doesn't matter if in SOME cases the 'victim' made the whole thing up a priori. What matters is people's attitudes that cause them to dismiss a person's victimhood solely on the basis that 'some' people make the whole rape thing up. I don't give a shit that you or derec feel that not investigating the possibility that the allegation is false is being unfair to the accused, because in fact that possibility is already being investigated... by experts who have the training and know-how to do so. It's not *your* job, nor mine, to keep that possibility open.

When someone states that they went through a traumatic experience, particularly one likely to leave long-term emotional and psychological scars, any decent human being should respond by believing them and showing them *sympathy*. Imagine yourself in the shoes of the victim for a moment, and people find out that you're claiming you got raped. How would *you* feel if people around you acted like you probably made the whole thing up because that's what some people have done in the past? It would only serve to cause you more emotional damage when you're in an immensely vulnerable position. It is the sort of thing that causes people to *commit suicide*.

As society, we should simply believe the victim and show them support until or unless it is proven they made the whole thing. This has the highest chance of avoiding more harm. Especially when as a society, you enact some sensible rules about the media not acting like a bunch of fucking vultures and publicize the whole thing before there's an actual verdict.





translation: "I don't actually have any reason to believe this, but it seems to be in the 'made up numbers' range.

And 8-50% range? You might as well have said the 1-100%. What a completely useless range!

If we follow their logic to its obvious conclusion, then there is nothing wrong with the violent ideas of radical Islamism because some people made up false claims about 9/11.

 

[The Paul]

Last time someone had a source or the rate of false rape allegations the source figured it as high as 8%.

So, logically, the true rate is somewhere between that number and six times that number.

 

[bigfield]

Shift the goal posts much? And, more importantly, I think most people would agree that being raped is much worse than falsely being accused of rape.

What does such a comparison have to do with anything?

- - - Updated - - -

False rape allegations exist. In a false rape allegation she generally *DID* make it up a priori. While I'm not aware of any good data on the false allegation rate it seems to be in the 8%-50% range.

If you don't investigate the possibility that the allegation is false then you're being unfair to the accused.

I'm pretty sure you made up that statistic. IIRC The only source you've ever referenced was the FBI, and 8% was the upper limit of their prediction.

 

[Derec]

Last time someone had a source or the rate of false rape allegations the source figured it as high as 8%.

So, logically, the true rate is somewhere between that number and six times that number.

The 8% number is only for rape claims that can be deemed "unfounded" during investigation. Those that make it to indictment (like Duke Lacrosse), trial or even conviction (Brian Banks) do not count toward the 8%, no matter how false. Therefore the true rate of false rape allegations is higher than much touted 8%.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

8% to 50% of what number?

Of rape claims. I think much of the range comes from the low numbers being claims that didn't get washed out very early on, the high numbers including cases where the cops promptly figured out she was lying, often before charges were ever filed.

 

[The Paul]

The 8% number is only for rape claims that can be deemed "unfounded" during investigation. Those that make it to indictment (like Duke Lacrosse), trial or even conviction (Brian Banks) do not count toward the 8%, no matter how false. Therefore the true rate of false rape allegations is higher than much touted 8%.

Hah. "much touted"

You or Loren provided that source originally. I forget who. It was one of those things where you're all "Here's a legitimate source. These guys did a REAL study, not like your leftist propaganda factories" only it turns out you got excited a little too quick and actually it doesn't say what you wish it says and now you're suddenly of the opinion their study wasn't so well-conducted after all.

 

[Sarpedon]

Compare it to other crimes: Any bomb threat, for example, is treated as a full blown emergency, even though most bomb threats are false. Also, missing children. How many times do we have missing children reports, complete with amber alerts and search parties, only to discover that the child just happened to take a nap in the closet for some reason?

The idea that a reported crime can be dismissed because of a high incidence of false reporting seems to only apply to rape cases. Could you imagine police ignoring a missing child report because many of them are false alarms?

 

[Derec]

Being raped one to immediate physical danger (including death), deadly stds, years of mental anguish and shame, and, if the victim is a woman and the rapist a man, dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

Most of these apply in prison, plus possibility of being raped while in there. Danger of ending up in prison for rape while innocent of it is a very big deal, no matter how much you try to trivialize it.

My guess is that just about anyone would make the same choice if forced.

Depends on whether they think they can beat the charges or end up in prison for years or decades. But even without going to prison spending any time in jail and being a subject of a criminal investigation and possibly a trial are not exactly pleasant experiences.

But your response is just another example of the "rape apologia" subculture in the US with its minimization of the ordeal and trauma that rape victims endure.

Nonsense. I am not trying to trivialize experience of rape (I acknowledge it is horrible). It is you who is trivializing false rape allegations. Reminds me of that feminist Vassar provost who claimed being falsely accused of rape is a good thing for young men to experience.

 

[Derec]

The idea that a reported crime can be dismissed because of a high incidence of false reporting seems to only apply to rape cases. Could you imagine police ignoring a missing child report because many of them are false alarms?

Nobody is saying that a reported crime needs to be dismissed. But prejudging those accused (as happened in the Duke Lacrosse case by both media and their own university) is just as wrong. Police should investigate a reported crime, sure, but not presuming those accused are guilty is not the same as dismissing a woman's claims.

And persisting in the prejudice against those accused in light of increasing exculpatory evidence (Cosmopolitan Magazine is apparently still pushing Crystal Magnum's lies and some even still think Tawana Brawley was raped) is even worse.

 

[dystopian]

Compare it to other crimes: Any bomb threat, for example, is treated as a full blown emergency, even though most bomb threats are false. Also, missing children. How many times do we have missing children reports, complete with amber alerts and search parties, only to discover that the child just happened to take a nap in the closet for some reason?

The idea that a reported crime can be dismissed because of a high incidence of false reporting seems to only apply to rape cases. Could you imagine police ignoring a missing child report because many of them are false alarms?

A thousand times this.


Here's a simple solution that keeps everyone happy; make it a criminal offense for the media to report on a rape case before a final verdict has been passed unless there's an imminent threat of recurrence (such as say a serial rapist being active who hasn't been caught yet). With such a solution, you not only spare the victim from further emotional distress because people throw mud at her as they are apt to do, but you also prevent the guy from having his reputation hurt in the event that it turns out he was falsely accused. Furthermore, it also ensures the case can't be influenced by popular opinion. Anyone who cries about free speech should just be reminded of the fact that you can't yell fire in a crowded theatre either. Make it a complete ban too, not just 'someone got raped here and here', because people will put things together otherwise which would defeat the point of a ban. Once the evidence has been weighed and a verdict handed down, the ban is lifted and the media get to report on the facts. I don't quite understand why this isn't common practice already in one form or another.

 

[Derec]

You or Loren provided that source originally. I forget who. It was one of those things where you're all "Here's a legitimate source. These guys did a REAL study, not like your leftist propaganda factories" only it turns out you got excited a little too quick and actually it doesn't say what you wish it says and now you're suddenly of the opinion their study wasn't so well-conducted after all.

The point is what the 8% represents and does not represent. It represents the percentage of rape claims that were found as "unfounded" during investigation. No more no less. What is completely wrong is to conclude that this number presents an estimate of false rape allegations as a whole, or even worse, that it represents a ceiling of any false rape allegation estimate. This desire to pretend that false rape allegations are much rarer than they are is yet another example of "rape culture hysteria".