God and the nature of the Universe

[another1]

I was thinking that if a science person doesn't believe in God, they may HAVE to believe in alien life. If the same natural (purposeless) things are happening all over the universe, with the same materials floating around... there is life existing elsewhere. That is what math and science say. I'm on the fence.

I heard someone is harvesting a sun nearby. They have a big machine set up apparently. It sounded pretty legit actually. If that is proven to be correct, sun-harvesting technology could only be contemplated as magic, to us. Personally I'd bow to anything capable of harvesting a sun. That is magic as hell. Proving something like that would make a good case for the existence of God. Not Earth God, but a real one, with pictures and radio signals to back it up.

The pictures would be taken by someone else, and I would never know for sure, but I'd have to have faith. If enough scientists got together and published 72 books to prove the existence of the sun-harvesters, their existence would be indisputable. Case closed, cancel Christmas and set up some educational centers around the world, to teach the reality to nonscientists.

 

[remez]

I can't understand that statement, what with the word 'true' inside the quotes.

Sorry……..
Before there were humans on the earth was the logical fact, “There are no humans on the earth.”
True? Or perhaps ………..
Before there were humans on earth. Could the earth both exist and not exist at the same time in the same manner?

My point is that logic existed before there were humans around to discover and/or utilize it. The laws of logic are not simply human conventions. They overtly exist independently of human minds.

 

[remez]

Beyond the temporal universe.

Logic is from beyond time. Man, that is some deep shit.

Exactly, that is the theological position. It’s about time.

 

[remez]

There seems, in America, to be a fascination with reliving debates from over a century ago. What is the point of it?

Really?

Then by all means demonstrate your advanced maturity and move on.

Well, I do try, but you keep getting in the way with all this 'God' stuff. I suppose a high proportion of Americans have only recently come across Nineteenth Century Doubt, whereas back in my childhood all Anglicans took it for granted.

You invited yourself into a thread by CC to address his thoughts on a theological position that he thinks presents a contradiction. I began to point out that he did not represent the theology accurately. You arrogantly trolled in by claiming we immature Americans are wasting our time with such outdated topics of reasoning. I suggested you simply move on, because thus far you obviously have nothing to offer but subjective, groundless, ineffective, tangential insults.

Please feel free to find a thread that matches your maturity. We certainly aren’t forcing you to waste your time here.

 

[another1]

There seems, in America, to be a fascination with reliving debates from over a century ago. What is the point of it?

Only in America? Only one Century? What was the outcome of those ancient debates? Did they nail the mysteries of God and the universe? If so, please link me to the info.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I can't understand that statement, what with the word 'true' inside the quotes.

Sorry……..
Before there were humans on the earth was the logical fact, “There are no humans on the earth.”
True?

That's a logical statement. Can you explain how this logical statement could have been stated before there were humans on Earth?
I mean, right now, you, a human, can make statements about conditions you have not observed, that no human has observed and we, other humans, can use logic to evaluate that statement. Right now.
But you have yet to provide any reason to think that logic existed before humans existed.

My point is that logic existed before there were humans around to discover and/or utilize it.

I don't see any evidence you have provided for this.

The laws of logic are not simply human conventions. They overtly exist independently of human minds.

That would be a wonderful thing to demonstrate.
How would you do this?

All the minds we know of are human minds. The computers we construct are the product of our logical conventions, nu?

So where would you find an example of non-human logic to show that it's the same laws as humans' logic?

Logic is a tool to evaluate ideas. Were there ideas in the deep Before Time?

 

[skepticalbip]

I can't understand that statement, what with the word 'true' inside the quotes.

Sorry……..
Before there were humans on the earth was the logical fact, “There are no humans on the earth.”
True? Or perhaps ………..
Before there were humans on earth. Could the earth both exist and not exist at the same time in the same manner?

My point is that logic existed before there were humans around to discover and/or utilize it. The laws of logic are not simply human conventions. They overtly exist independently of human minds.

I think you are confusing logic with reality. Reality was certainly around long before humans emerged - the sun burned brightly, rain fell, plants grew, there was cause and effect, etc.. Logic is a method invented by and used by humans to understand reality.

 

[atrib]

I don't understand why you are arguing that logic is eternal and was not created. MW defines logic as:



Logic is a man made tool. I don't understand how logic would exist without a sufficiently advanced brain to develop and use it. Or why you would consider it to be eternal.

Here…………

Logic is a man made tool.

Before there were humans on the earth was the statement, “There are no humans on the earth, true?”

The question is meaningless. Before the existence of humans, there was no species on Earth capable of formulating such a thought or making such a statement. It is possible that some alien species may have had knowledge about Earth and had formulated such a statement, but by necessity, such a species would have been temporal, not eternal.

I don't understand how logic would exist without a sufficiently advanced brain to develop and use it. Or why you would consider it to be eternal.

Theists overtly purport that the creator is that necessary advanced eternal mind.

If a supernatural creator actually existed and know all about Earth and humans, and possessed the property of being eternal, then possibly. But the existence of such a creator is hypothesis unsupported by evidence, and you certainly cannot demonstrate that such a creature exists. Therefore, claiming that logic is eternal is also merely hypothesis unsupported by evidence.

 

[remez]

That's a logical statement. Can you explain how this logical statement could have been stated before there were humans on Earth?
I mean, right now, you, a human, can make statements about conditions you have not observed, that no human has observed and we, other humans, can use logic to evaluate that statement. Right now.
But you have yet to provide any reason to think that logic existed before humans existed.

Point of clarification. I was only pointing out the misrepresentation of the theology by CC. Theologians don’t view the laws of logic to be created, but come from the nature of the eternal God. Similar to the way morality is reasoned by theologians. Theists believe that the creator is that eternal mind that has a logical nature. I was not trying to reason which worldview is more plausible only that he created a straw man theology to contradict.

My point is that logic existed before there were humans around to discover and/or utilize it.

I don't see any evidence you have provided for this.

The laws of logic are not simply human conventions. They overtly exist independently of human minds.

That would be a wonderful thing to demonstrate.
How would you do this?

All the minds we know of are human minds.

Again the theology was mispresented when CC purported that God created logic and that was the focus of my charge of a straw man.
The actual theological position is that logic, the logos, has always existed in the eternal mind of God. Theology reasons the laws of logic to be a description of the functioning of God’s mind. Somewhat similar to the law of gravity being a description of the functioning of a force we have never seen. Please also notice, that gravity of course, existed before there were human minds around to discover it.
Again….

All the minds we know of are human minds.

Theists don’t reason it that way. Can you properly represent all the reasons why? I’m fairly certain I understand why you believe your statement to be true. I suspect CC holds the same ideology you do on this, but he presented a straw man of the proper theology.

Logic is a tool to evaluate ideas.

Worldview distinction here. Theologically - logic is a standard (from the nature of God) that can be used as a tool to evaluate ideas. A tool is an invented thing. In this case, on your part I assume, that invented tool based on logic is methodological naturalism. Nonetheless, it is a philosophical structure invented with logic to understand the world around us.

Granted there is a science dedicated to study of logic but that should not be conflated to logic itself. Biological processes existed before there were humans around to invent science of biology.

So given those presented clarifications..... Did CC present a straw man?

Were there ideas in the deep Before Time?

Isn’t that a given in CC’s OP?

 

[remez]

I think you are confusing logic with reality. Reality was certainly around long before humans emerged - the sun burned brightly, rain fell, plants grew, there was cause and effect, etc.. Logic is a method invented by and used by humans to understand reality.

To be fair I wanted to put up your whole quote for context before I attempted to address it.

I think you are confusing logic with reality.

There are a great deal of assumptions in there. Of major relevance here are two big issues.

One. You would, I assume, limit reality to only the physical natural universe. I, of course, would need to reason beyond the temporal natural physical universe itself. Again I was not attempting to debate the two different worldviews. I was only pointing out that CC misrepresented the theological worldview.

Two. I’m not confusing logic with reality itself. Theology reasons the laws of logic to be a description of the functioning of God’s mind. Therefore theologically it follows that the universe, his creation, would function logically. Again this is an issue misrepresented in the OP.

Reality was certainly around long before humans…

Logic as well, theologically speaking. Reality as you specifically portrayed it here…..

there was cause and effect, etc..

….functioned logically even before, according to you, there were humans around.

I concur.

But that was my point. So please explain this…

Logic is a method invented by and used by humans to understand reality.

.... according to your worldview. How could nature function logically, cause and effect etc., before there were humans around to invent logic?

After all according to the pondering's of Einstein
"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"

To a theist this isn’t an issue. But from a skeptic's pov I can understand the preponderance.

So again back to my point……given those theological clarifications....Did the OP present a straw man?

 

[Malintent]

To be fair I wanted to put up your whole quote for context before I attempted to address it.

I think you are confusing logic with reality.

There are a great deal of assumptions in there. Of major relevance here are two big issues.

One. You would, I assume, limit reality to only the physical natural universe. I, of course, would need to reason beyond the temporal natural physical universe itself. Again I was not attempting to debate the two different worldviews. I was only pointing out that CC misrepresented the theological worldview.

Two. I’m not confusing logic with reality itself. Theology reasons the laws of logic to be a description of the functioning of God’s mind. Therefore theologically it follows that the universe, his creation, would function logically. Again this is an issue misrepresented in the OP.

Reality was certainly around long before humans…

Logic as well, theologically speaking. Reality as you specifically portrayed it here…..

there was cause and effect, etc..

….functioned logically even before, according to you, there were humans around.

I concur.

But that was my point. So please explain this…

Logic is a method invented by and used by humans to understand reality.

.... according to your worldview. How could nature function logically, cause and effect etc., before there were humans around to invent logic?

After all according to the pondering's of Einstein
"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"

To a theist this isn’t an issue. But from a skeptic's pov I can understand the preponderance.

So again back to my point……given those theological clarifications....Did the OP present a straw man?

Before men were around to count things, how could there possibly be any number of things?
Like that?

By "confusing reality and logic", I believe what is meant is that you are confusing the language of things for the actual thing.
Logic is the language of causality, and other things. those things existed before someone came along and gave them a name.

 

[remez]

The question is meaningless. Before the existence of humans, there was no species on Earth capable of formulating such a thought or making such a statement. It is possible that some alien species may have had knowledge about Earth and had formulated such a statement, but by necessity, such a species would have been temporal, not eternal.

You’re sort of making my point that if the universe was operating logically, before there were humans around to invent logic, then there would logically have to be a personal agent responsible for that logic. But I digress.

But of importance here. I was challenging the misrepresentation of theology by CC. He claimed that theologians claim that God created the laws of logic. That not only misrepresents the theological reasoning but evidences he doesn’t understand the theology he trying show has a contradiction.

As I addressed to you here………..

I don't understand how logic would exist without a sufficiently advanced brain to develop and use it. Or why you would consider it to be eternal.

Theists overtly purport that the creator is that necessary advanced eternal mind.

So this…..

If a supernatural creator actually existed and know all about Earth and humans, and possessed the property of being eternal, then possibly. But the existence of such a creator is hypothesis unsupported by evidence, and you certainly cannot demonstrate that such a creature exists. Therefore, claiming that logic is eternal is also merely hypothesis unsupported by evidence.

….is a challenge to reason which worldview is more plausible and digresses from my intentions. So please, address whether the OP does or does not represent the proper theology he purports to be a contradiction.

 

[remez]

To be fair I wanted to put up your whole quote for context before I attempted to address it.

There are a great deal of assumptions in there. Of major relevance here are two big issues.

One. You would, I assume, limit reality to only the physical natural universe. I, of course, would need to reason beyond the temporal natural physical universe itself. Again I was not attempting to debate the two different worldviews. I was only pointing out that CC misrepresented the theological worldview.

Two. I’m not confusing logic with reality itself. Theology reasons the laws of logic to be a description of the functioning of God’s mind. Therefore theologically it follows that the universe, his creation, would function logically. Again this is an issue misrepresented in the OP.

Reality was certainly around long before humans…

Logic as well, theologically speaking. Reality as you specifically portrayed it here…..

there was cause and effect, etc..

….functioned logically even before, according to you, there were humans around.

I concur.

But that was my point. So please explain this…

Logic is a method invented by and used by humans to understand reality.

.... according to your worldview. How could nature function logically, cause and effect etc., before there were humans around to invent logic?

After all according to the pondering's of Einstein
"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"

To a theist this isn’t an issue. But from a skeptic's pov I can understand the preponderance.

So again back to my point……given those theological clarifications....Did the OP present a straw man?

Before men were around to count things, how could there possibly be any number of things?
Like that?

By "confusing reality and logic", I believe what is meant is that you are confusing the language of things for the actual thing.
Logic is the language of causality, and other things. those things existed before someone came along and gave them a name.

Not sure where you claim I’m confused. For here……….

… those things existed before someone came along and gave them a name.

….I completely agree.

 

[Malintent]

To be fair I wanted to put up your whole quote for context before I attempted to address it.

There are a great deal of assumptions in there. Of major relevance here are two big issues.

One. You would, I assume, limit reality to only the physical natural universe. I, of course, would need to reason beyond the temporal natural physical universe itself. Again I was not attempting to debate the two different worldviews. I was only pointing out that CC misrepresented the theological worldview.

Two. I’m not confusing logic with reality itself. Theology reasons the laws of logic to be a description of the functioning of God’s mind. Therefore theologically it follows that the universe, his creation, would function logically. Again this is an issue misrepresented in the OP.

Reality was certainly around long before humans…

Logic as well, theologically speaking. Reality as you specifically portrayed it here…..

there was cause and effect, etc..

….functioned logically even before, according to you, there were humans around.

I concur.

But that was my point. So please explain this…

Logic is a method invented by and used by humans to understand reality.

.... according to your worldview. How could nature function logically, cause and effect etc., before there were humans around to invent logic?

After all according to the pondering's of Einstein
"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"

To a theist this isn’t an issue. But from a skeptic's pov I can understand the preponderance.

So again back to my point……given those theological clarifications....Did the OP present a straw man?

Before men were around to count things, how could there possibly be any number of things?
Like that?

By "confusing reality and logic", I believe what is meant is that you are confusing the language of things for the actual thing.
Logic is the language of causality, and other things. those things existed before someone came along and gave them a name.

Not sure where you claim I’m confused. For here……….

… those things existed before someone came along and gave them a name.

….I completely agree.

I did not make the claim, Skeptic did and I was attempting to clarify what I thought was meant by it.

 

[Learner]

Well it is rather amazing that the 'nature of the universe' is rather formulaic . One can invent all types of measuring units and find the universe would still seem logically calculable. Before man came about, maths was waiting there to be discovered.

(Not suggesting this means anything its just fascinating.)

 

[skepticalbip]

To be fair I wanted to put up your whole quote for context before I attempted to address it.

I think you are confusing logic with reality.

There are a great deal of assumptions in there. Of major relevance here are two big issues.

One. You would, I assume, limit reality to only the physical natural universe. I, of course, would need to reason beyond the temporal natural physical universe itself. Again I was not attempting to debate the two different worldviews. I was only pointing out that CC misrepresented the theological worldview.

Two. I’m not confusing logic with reality itself. Theology reasons the laws of logic to be a description of the functioning of God’s mind. Therefore theologically it follows that the universe, his creation, would function logically. Again this is an issue misrepresented in the OP.

Reality was certainly around long before humans…

Logic as well, theologically speaking. Reality as you specifically portrayed it here…..

there was cause and effect, etc..

….functioned logically even before, according to you, there were humans around.

I concur.

But that was my point. So please explain this…

Logic is a method invented by and used by humans to understand reality.

.... according to your worldview. How could nature function logically, cause and effect etc., before there were humans around to invent logic?

After all according to the pondering's of Einstein
"The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"

To a theist this isn’t an issue. But from a skeptic's pov I can understand the preponderance.

So again back to my point……given those theological clarifications....Did the OP present a straw man?

As I said, you are confusing reality and logic. I would suggest that you look up the definition of logic.

Things happen. Things happening causes other things to happen. etc. That is simply reality.

Along comes humanity. They see things happening and want to understand it so they apply reasoning (a function of an operating brain). Their reasoning helps them to understand but because of biases, ignorance, etc. their reasoning doesn't always allow them to accurately understand and predict. This bothers them so they develop a rigid system of reasoning they called logic that helps them better understand and predict.

. Things happen - that is reality.
. Logic is an invented system of reasoning that allows human to understand that reality - it isn't that reality nor is it necessary for that reality to be what it is, only for us to understand it.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Words often have various meanings. "Logic" certainly does. What I meant in the OP was reality, the way things work in this material world. Now either God creates that reality, that logic (Descartes and others) or God does not. If not where does that reality, that logic come from, and how deep does it go? Where does it come from and what is it and why is it what it is?

Many theologians do want to avoid admitting that this reality is apart and separate from God, that God is necessary in the sense of being the underlying foundation of all. Suppositionalism makes that claim for example. The doctrine of the simplicity of God was created to avoid having to explain how God came to be what God is, what metaphysical necessities underlie God's nature and attributes. And what put them together in one substance.

So this is a serious theological set of puzzles with deep and long roots. I have not seen many atheists take this set of problems seriously with the examination this really deserves.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The less time we spend on the nature of imaginary beings and the more time we spend on how the known universe works,seems like a bit better.

By paying careful attention to the nature of imaginary beings, we can demonstrate that they are indeed imaginary beings.

There are many people who do not believe God is an imaginary being and that causes a lot of problems today. Destroying science education in our schools, radical Islam, homophobia etc.

 

[skepticalbip]

Words often have various meanings. "Logic" certainly does. What I meant in the OP was reality, the way things work in this material world. Now either God creates that reality, that logic (Descartes and others) or God does not. If not where does that reality, that logic come from, and how deep does it go? Where does it come from and what is it and why is it what it is?

Many theologians do want to avoid admitting that this reality is apart and separate from God, that God is necessary in the sense of being the underlying foundation of all. Suppositionalism makes that claim for example. The doctrine of the simplicity of God was created to avoid having to explain how God came to be what God is, what metaphysical necessities underlie God's nature and attributes. And what put them together in one substance.

So this is a serious theological set of puzzles with deep and long roots. I have not seen many atheists take this set of problems seriously with the examination this really deserves.

AHA, then you are talking about the laws of physics (c being a constant, laws of motion, mass/energy equivalence, etc.) rather than logic (a human invention). Your question is then an interesting one. Einstein addressed it with his question, "did god have a choice in creating the universe?" But then he was questioning whether the laws of physics could have been different than they are.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Remez:

"-Created all things that are logically possible. This is important. God cannot create a married bachelor."

Believe it or not, there are in fact theologians that have hypothesized God can make contradictions work, and can do illogical things. But then, we are not talking about such things. Can God make the metaphysical necessities of the world what they are. For example, Descartes claimed God could change the ration of a radius of a circle to the circumference at will.

This is an interesting proposition, that God lays down the laws of the Universe like a king lays down his laws. By fiat.

If so, it has some interesting ramifications. If not, that also has some interesting ramifications. Yes, this does have some deep problems to think about, and no, my presentation is not a strawman.