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When Godwin Was Wrong

Jarhyn

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I've said it before and I'm probably going to have to say it again, Trump is literally taking pages out of Hitler's playbook.

Trump is using blacks, Muslims, and Mexicans as Hitler used the Irish, Jews, blacks, and Romani, and decades of nervously trying to not compare people to Nazis has conditioned us, ironically enough, to not see Nazis, or at least not make an impactful comparison.

Stop and frisk and confiscating guns from any Jews black people? Deporting Irish immigrants 'illegals'? Deporting all Jews Muslims? Saying Romani Mexicans are rapists?

He's set to put a MAJORITY of cronies into the supreme Court.

This is not ok. Not at all. He is literally Hitler 2.0 and this is literally the rise of fascism in the West. We need to stop shying away from seeing it or saying it or using dog whistles to imply it.
 
On the contrary, the Islamophiles on the Left have a lot more in common with Hitler/Nazis.
6-hitler_zum_islam1.png

Grand-Mufti-et-SS.jpg


The Islamophilic Left also loves to hate the Jews.
180713115715-b1-.jpg

Just like the Nazis did.
 
I've said it before and I'm probably going to have to say it again, Trump is literally taking pages out of Hitler's playbook.

Trump is using blacks, Muslims, and Mexicans as Hitler used the Irish, Jews, blacks, and Romani, and decades of nervously trying to not compare people to Nazis has conditioned us, ironically enough, to not see Nazis, or at least not make an impactful comparison.

Stop and frisk and confiscating guns from any Jews black people? Deporting Irish immigrants 'illegals'? Deporting all Jews Muslims? Saying Romani Mexicans are rapists?

He's set to put a MAJORITY of cronies into the supreme Court.

This is not ok. Not at all. He is literally Hitler 2.0 and this is literally the rise of fascism in the West. We need to stop shying away from seeing it or saying it or using dog whistles to imply it.

Well, I don't know about that. Hitler's really remembered more for the whole genocide thing than the playing on people's fears thing. Also, Hitler actually believed in what he was saying and, as a result, was willing to take drastic actions in order bring his vision about.

Trump doesn't give a shit about the things he's saying and is doing all this in order to make some money. He has no intention of implementing any of his policies and isn't going to fight against any resistance to them because he simply does not care enough. Also, he's not a two-term President and simply wants to check off "Became President of the United States" on his bucket list and then wander off and do something else that's not as hard, so it's not like he's going to be implementing some decade-long plan.

While there are some similarities in their initial rhetoric, the same as there are similarities with the rhetoric of everyone else who tried to climb to power by demonizing an out-group for the problems people have, that's where the similarities end.
 
Stop and frisk and confiscating guns from any Jews black people? Deporting Irish immigrants 'illegals'? Deporting all Jews Muslims? Saying Romani Mexicans are rapists?

What a meaningless load of nonsense.

Trump never said to confiscate guns from people because they are black. There actually is a difference between a government treating people differently based on ethnicity vs treating them differently based on legal status. I don't recall a sincere proposal to deport Muslims as such or that Mexicans are rapists in general.

You are literally inventing his position in your head.

He is literally Hitler 2.0 and this is literally the rise of fascism in the West. We need to stop shying away from seeing it or saying it or using dog whistles to imply it.

I guess when relating people to the KKK doesn't get the response you want, you gotta step it up in the 'spot the bigot' game.
 
You are literally inventing his position in your head.

Yeah, completely fabricated... from Tump's statements. How dare he?

I guess when relating people to the KKK doesn't get the response you want, you gotta step it up in the 'spot the bigot' game.

That's no game - it's so simple a caveman could do it.

Trump doesn't give a shit about the things he's saying and is doing all this in order to make some money. He has no intention of implementing any of his policies and isn't going to fight against any resistance to them because he simply does not care enough.

Exactly.
 
I've said it before and I'm probably going to have to say it again, Trump is literally taking pages out of Hitler's playbook.

Trump is using blacks, Muslims, and Mexicans as Hitler used the Irish, Jews, blacks, and Romani, and decades of nervously trying to not compare people to Nazis has conditioned us, ironically enough, to not see Nazis, or at least not make an impactful comparison.

Stop and frisk and confiscating guns from any Jews black people? Deporting Irish immigrants 'illegals'? Deporting all Jews Muslims? Saying Romani Mexicans are rapists?

He's set to put a MAJORITY of cronies into the supreme Court.

This is not ok. Not at all. He is literally Hitler 2.0 and this is literally the rise of fascism in the West. We need to stop shying away from seeing it or saying it or using dog whistles to imply it.

Has Trump said he's going to deport all those different people. As I understand his focus is mainly on illegal immigrants and without amnesties. He wanted to stop Muslim migration due to security issues but I can't see any of the houses approving such a bill. We do have a security issue with immigrants from the Middle East as well as home grown. What the US should do is to continue surveillance and restrict entry to special skills and asylum seekers who must leave if they fail on appeal to be allowed to stay.
 
Hitlerism in its true, racist sense exists only in 'Israel' where capitalism has never been under threat, and since capitalism is not under any very immediate threat anywhere, full outright attacks of workers' organisations and free speech are just at their run-of-the-mill capitalist normality. When it comes to simply telling convenient and popular lies with total cynicism. Mr Trump is clearly a remake of Hitler, though flabbier and less intelligent. He wouldn't have lasted five minutes in Weimar Germany, in my view: right wing Americans are equally flabby, however.
 
But Trump isn't a fascist, he is just running a fascist campaign. The guy wants to win, he doesn't want to be President. And the comparison is Mussolini, not Hitler.
 
Supporting Tom's post and expanding entirely on my own, in the final analysis Trump isn't willing to put in the effort to be Hitler 2. He lacks the rhetorical and organizational skills, as well as the motivation to achieve a viable fascist state.

He is, however, using many of the same tools of fascist propaganda; excessive nationalism, the big lie repeated often, the scapegoating of ready identifiable groups blaming them for problems not of their making, that only he can solve our problems, the dependence on irrational fear, the secret plans that he can't divulge, nativism, denial of individual human rights, glorification of the military and over reliance on military solutions, the personification of the movement in himself, the advancement of the corporations and the suppression of labor, sexism, the denial of fact, calls for authoritarianism, the rejection of the validity of elections, etc.

A few of these are Trump's new and undesirable insertions into our public discussion but most are just extensions of where the Republicans and movement conservatism have been heading over the last few decades as they have continued to move ever further to the right.
 
I think he wants mainly to improve his brand; IOW make money.

I believe his xenophobic racist misogyny is sincere, but he won't put any energy into those things. Money is what he wants.
 
But Trump isn't a fascist, he is just running a fascist campaign. The guy wants to win, he doesn't want to be President. And the comparison is Mussolini, not Hitler.

Mussolini not only wanted to win but demonstrated (to Hitler and similar no-hopers) how to do it. One vital tactic was to take foreign money when it helped, as when the West bought him to push Italy into war on their side. I think Trump wouldn't have enough sense to work that.
 
But Trump isn't a fascist, he is just running a fascist campaign. The guy wants to win, he doesn't want to be President. And the comparison is Mussolini, not Hitler.

Mussolini not only wanted to win but demonstrated (to Hitler and similar no-hopers) how to do it. One vital tactic was to take foreign money when it helped, as when the West bought him to push Italy into war on their side. I think Trump wouldn't have enough sense to work that.

That is one extremely good point. While the Hitlerian analogies don't really apply to Trump, what he is doing is showing someone else who actually buys into this garbage how to do it. If someone without all of Trump's stupidity and negatives came along and ran a similar campaign, knowing how to dog-whistle and not commit to such overt racism and sexism, they'd have a decent chance of coming out ahead. Trump has exposed a dark underbelly of America and given a roadmap of how to tap into a lot of the very legitimate anger that's out there and how to focus the blame for it on some outgroup. A better and more evil and committed person could take advantage of that.
 
I presume these recent posts are related in part to illegal immigration as an issue. The current US administration also has a policy of only welcoming legal immigration but the situation is out of control.

In Europe we have seen the problems with uncontrolled amounts of people entering different countries, but more on the problems with building housing, schools and finding sufficient jobs especially in countries like Italy, Spain, Greece and Portugal who have high levels of unemployment and a certain amount of people in poverty.
 
Mussolini not only wanted to win but demonstrated (to Hitler and similar no-hopers) how to do it. One vital tactic was to take foreign money when it helped, as when the West bought him to push Italy into war on their side. I think Trump wouldn't have enough sense to work that.

That is one extremely good point. While the Hitlerian analogies don't really apply to Trump, what he is doing is showing someone else who actually buys into this garbage how to do it. If someone without all of Trump's stupidity and negatives came along and ran a similar campaign, knowing how to dog-whistle and not commit to such overt racism and sexism, they'd have a decent chance of coming out ahead. Trump has exposed a dark underbelly of America and given a roadmap of how to tap into a lot of the very legitimate anger that's out there and how to focus the blame for it on some outgroup. A better and more evil and committed person could take advantage of that.

I'm wondering who that might be (on the assumption that it will be mere speculation, of course.) Who is better at masking duplicity yet more evil than Trump?

The only example I can think of is Lex Luthor (who in DC canon did indeed become U.S. President.)
 
I'm wondering who that might be (on the assumption that it will be mere speculation, of course.) Who is better at masking duplicity yet more evil than Trump?

The only example I can think of is Lex Luthor (who in DC canon did indeed become U.S. President.)

Probably Peyton Manning. There's a reason that the mainstream media will never cover the story of how Peyton Manning kidnaps, murders and eats young black children - it's because he's managed to develop a persona of a decent, hard-working, humble man whom everybody likes and respects and his being a cannibalistic, racist serial killer doesn't fit into the preconceived narrative that the liberal elitists have constructed for him. Even if they did talk about it, they'd probably find a way to blame it on Tom Brady.

Nobody's going to believe that Peyton Manning is a racist, so he can say and do as many racist things as he wants and the accusations won't stick. Nobody's going to believe that Peyton Manning would break campaign finance laws, so he can take as many illegal foreign donations as he pleases and no prosecutor would take up the case because he'd feel it was baseless. He could run around the Democratic candidate's rallies and toss grenades into the crowd and the only news reporting would be about how good his throwing arm still is because the idea that Peyton Manning would commit mass murder against his opponent's supporters isn't a claim that would get past the stations' fact checkers since they can't see Peyton Manning doing something like that.

He has perfectly positioned himself to take up Trump's mantle and impose a fascist dystopia that's somehow all Bill Belichek's fault and not his.
 
I'm wondering who that might be (on the assumption that it will be mere speculation, of course.) Who is better at masking duplicity yet more evil than Trump?

The only example I can think of is Lex Luthor (who in DC canon did indeed become U.S. President.)

Probably Peyton Manning. There's a reason that the mainstream media will never cover the story of how Peyton Manning kidnaps, murders and eats young black children - it's because he's managed to develop a persona of a decent, hard-working, humble man whom everybody likes and respects and his being a cannibalistic, racist serial killer doesn't fit into the preconceived narrative that the liberal elitists have constructed for him. Even if they did talk about it, they'd probably find a way to blame it on Tom Brady.

Nobody's going to believe that Peyton Manning is a racist, so he can say and do as many racist things as he wants and the accusations won't stick. Nobody's going to believe that Peyton Manning would break campaign finance laws, so he can take as many illegal foreign donations as he pleases and no prosecutor would take up the case because he'd feel it was baseless. He could run around the Democratic candidate's rallies and toss grenades into the crowd and the only news reporting would be about how good his throwing arm still is because the idea that Peyton Manning would commit mass murder against his opponent's supporters isn't a claim that would get past the stations' fact checkers since they can't see Peyton Manning doing something like that.

He has perfectly positioned himself to take up Trump's mantle and impose a fascist dystopia that's somehow all Bill Belichek's fault and not his.

That means Trevor Siemian will have to wait his turn again?
 
This is a review of recent book on Hitler.

In ‘Hitler,’ an Ascent From ‘Dunderhead’ to Demagogue - The New York Times
Mr. Ullrich, like other biographers, provides vivid insight into some factors that helped turn a “Munich rabble-rouser” — regarded by many as a self-obsessed “clown” with a strangely “scattershot, impulsive style” — into “the lord and master of the German Reich.”

• Hitler was often described as an egomaniac who “only loved himself” — a narcissist with a taste for self-dramatization and what Mr. Ullrich calls a “characteristic fondness for superlatives.” His manic speeches and penchant for taking all-or-nothing risks raised questions about his capacity for self-control, even his sanity. But Mr. Ullrich underscores Hitler’s shrewdness as a politician — with a “keen eye for the strengths and weaknesses of other people” and an ability to “instantaneously analyze and exploit situations.”

• Hitler was known, among colleagues, for a “bottomless mendacity” that would later be magnified by a slick propaganda machine that used the latest technology (radio, gramophone records, film) to spread his message. A former finance minister wrote that Hitler “was so thoroughly untruthful that he could no longer recognize the difference between lies and truth” and editors of one edition of “Mein Kampf” described it as a “swamp of lies, distortions, innuendoes, half-truths and real facts.”

• Hitler was an effective orator and actor, Mr. Ullrich reminds readers, adept at assuming various masks and feeding off the energy of his audiences. Although he concealed his anti-Semitism beneath a “mask of moderation” when trying to win the support of the socially liberal middle classes, he specialized in big, theatrical rallies staged with spectacular elements borrowed from the circus. Here, “Hitler adapted the content of his speeches to suit the tastes of his lower-middle-class, nationalist-conservative, ethnic-chauvinist and anti-Semitic listeners,” Mr. Ullrich writes. He peppered his speeches with coarse phrases and put-downs of hecklers. Even as he fomented chaos by playing to crowds’ fears and resentments, he offered himself as the visionary leader who could restore law and order.

• Hitler increasingly presented himself in messianic terms, promising “to lead Germany to a new era of national greatness,” though he was typically vague about his actual plans. He often harked back to a golden age for the country, Mr. Ullrich says, the better “to paint the present day in hues that were all the darker. Everywhere you looked now, there was only decline and decay.”

• Hitler’s repertoire of topics, Mr. Ullrich notes, was limited, and reading his speeches in retrospect, “it seems amazing that he attracted larger and larger audiences” with “repeated mantralike phrases” consisting largely of “accusations, vows of revenge and promises for the future.” But Hitler virtually wrote the modern playbook on demagoguery, arguing in “Mein Kampf” that propaganda must appeal to the emotions — not the reasoning powers — of the crowd. Its “purely intellectual level,” Hitler said, “will have to be that of the lowest mental common denominator among the public it is desired to reach.” Because the understanding of the masses “is feeble,” he went on, effective propaganda needed to be boiled down to a few slogans that should be “persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward.”

• Hitler’s rise was not inevitable, in Mr. Ullrich’s opinion. There were numerous points at which his ascent might have been derailed, he contends; even as late as January 1933, “it would have been eminently possible to prevent his nomination as Reich chancellor.” He benefited from a “constellation of crises that he was able to exploit cleverly and unscrupulously” — in addition to economic woes and unemployment, there was an “erosion of the political center” and a growing resentment of the elites. The unwillingness of Germany’s political parties to compromise had contributed to a perception of government dysfunction, Mr. Ullrich suggests, and the belief of Hitler supporters that the country needed “a man of iron” who could shake things up. “Why not give the National Socialists a chance?” a prominent banker said of the Nazis. “They seem pretty gutsy to me.”
 
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