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Ontario raising minimum wage to $15

Why should the employer pay more than the labour is worth to them?
"Worth to them"? The value of labor isn't a fixed thing. In general, corporations will pay the lowest amount they can get away with for labor. Even today, corporations are fined for underpaying or not paying for labor (big and small companies).

They buy at the market rate. That rate changes with UBI. When you have enough money to survive without a job, you have considerably more bargaining power with an employer.

If a corporation pays their employees such a wage that the taxpayers have to subsidize the employees food, housing, heating, health care, that is a burden on the society.

Why shouldn't all of society hold that burden? Why should employers (big and small; not all of them corporations) be responsible for anything but the fair exchange at the market value for labour? Why should they be responsible for the food, housing, heating, and health care of people they pay to work for them? Is that thought a holdover from slavery? They don't own the employees, nor are they in a parental relationship with the employees. The employees should be free to sell labour to who they wish and the employers should be free to buy it at whatever rate the employee and employer agree on.

The question should be asked, "Just how much of a burden can a corporation be on the taxpayers?" What is the benefit to the nation of allowing a corporation to underpay their workers so much that the nation has to pay to support the employee so they don't have to live on the street?

You have that question backwards. Having people not living on the street is something the whole of society should be concerned with and responsible for, not just those who buy labour. You are shifting this whole burden onto the employer and off of the automated company, idle rich, and the rest of us. So the real question is why don't you want the automated employer and idle rich paying their fair share?
 
The foundation of capitalist ideology is a fairexchange of value.

Who dictates what is and is not "Fair"? Historically, the government does. I'd respond to the rest but your first sentence is actually the downfall of your entire point so there's no need to.

Not moot point, because it isn't binary. Yes, technology will and is already pushing employees out, but making labor more expensive is only going to push that faster. Seriously, why would we predict a business owner not buy machines if machines are cheaper than humans?
Good, the faster we make human labor obsolete the better.

First, no it isn't. Second, when it is, by how much?
Yes, yes it is. The only thing holding us back from total automation is practicality of robots in certain fields, but that is changing and quickly.

What I said was coherent. [1] You just have to read what it was responding to. [2] He is demanding that employers be responsible for the living standards of employees, even when the labour done doesn't justify the employer paying that amount. [3] That is putting a burden on the the employer and taking it off of the rest of society (both of whom can be said to have an interest in the person having a living income), and it is a burden that the employer can flee from, leaving nobody to help the employee. It is a mirage tactic. [4] The real answer isn't minimum wage increase. The real answer is universal basic income through reverse taxation. [5]

1. No it isn't. It'd help if you bothered to specify who 'They' is for instance.

2. I did. Didn't help. Who is 'They'? Further, the fragment "live 4 families in an apartment" is the kind of poor syntax you come to expect from kindergartners. It all adds up to a sentence which is difficult to decipher the meaning of due to your failure to follow proper language conventions to a degree that is sufficient to impart your meaning.

3. There it is again, the word "Justify". Who decides what is and is not just? Once more, when it comes to America that role is historically filled by the government (And by extension, the people who own and operate it)

4. an employer can only let so many people go before they see a loss in productivity. I had a minimum wage job last year, and on occasion I got to see how much I brought in for the company I worked for at the end of my shift and then compare that to my take home. Even if they doubled my pay, my overall productivity as an employee is still worth more than my pay by two-to-four times. depending on the traffic on any particular day.

5. I already responded to this point in an earlier post. Further, if you offer tax relief to people who are working, you're going to need to make up for that shortfall somewhere. So who gets to suffer at the end of the day? People like my boyfriend who are incapable of working, or the rich who would need to be taxed to make up for it?
 
The foundation of capitalist ideology is a fair exchange of value.
"Fair" is subjective and largely depends on the assessment of needs. Each side is expected to try and fill their own needs as completely as possible. In an imbalance of power, one side is unable to do so and the exchange becomes unfair to the side with less power.

Because we live in a democratic society -- and not, as it were, a capitalist one -- is is understood that the side with more power is SUPPOSED to be the citizens for whom the government nominally speaks, and it is through the government (which represents the people) that that power is manifested.

One manifestation of that power is the minimum wage. It's basically a gigantic collective bargaining agreement.

Why should employers be saddled with that burden as well?
Because the people said so.

Not moot point, because it isn't binary. Yes, technology will and is already pushing employees out, but making labor more expensive is only going to push that faster.
No. Making the technology cheaper will push that faster. Companies that couldn't afford to do it before won't be able to do it with a wage increase (in fact, they'll be less likely to do it because their payroll costs have gone up). Companies that COULD afford to do it will either do it anyway or invest in more skill training for their suddenly more expensive employees.

Of course, companies that already pay their employees 2 or 3 times the minimum wage won't notice any change at all except that they suddenly have a noticeable increase in customers.

Seriously, why would we predict a business owner not buy machines if machines are cheaper than humans?
Because machines can't DO most of the things humans can do. Machines can't replace teachers, paramedics and nurses. They can't replace contractors, construction workers, welders, pipefitters. They can't replace plumbers and electricians. They can't (yet) replace bus drivers, uber drivers, taxi drivers, delivery drivers, forklift drivers and couriers.

If and when machines CAN replace all of those workers, it won't matter what their wages are. No human worker can compete with a machine whose hourly rate is effectively zero.

What might happen then, is a whole different can of worms. It's entirely possible that a new economy will form where more and smaller businesses become competitive because a single person can employ automation to reduce his startup costs to almost nothing and let a small army of machines do all of the work. That would make venture capitalism accessible to people who a generation earlier would have just been cogs in the machine. But that would depend on the cost of the machines being relatively low and affordable, which isn't usually the case; ultimately, it's still cheaper to hire and train better employees in many cases than it is to try and buy a machine that can do the same job not-quite-reliably and still needs a technician to supervise it.

it is a burden that the employer can flee from
Not if he wants to stay in business. He still needs to pay SOMEONE to do that job, and if he wants the job done, he's going to have to pay minimum or higher. Automation isn't going to magically save him from having to pay minimum wage; if he has the money to pay $30,000 for a robotic dishwasher that will have to be replaced in a few years anyway and also has a variable cost of ownership (e.g. maintenance, upgrades, technical support, etc) then he might as well just pay somebody $30,000 a year to wash his dishes. At least in this case, the dishwasher can also bus tables, mop the floors, put the chairs away at the end of the day and help the kitchen staff clean up. A dishwashing robot can do none of those things.

The real answer isn't minimum wage increase. The real answer is universal basic income through reverse taxation.

I would agree with this except I don't think a nation like the United States could ever actually provide enough tax revenue to provide an acceptable basic income. I'd be all for it if we could, but the math doesn't seem to work out. From what I can tell, we would need something like $20k to $22k per person to cover costs of housing and food (about $400 per week). Basic income from tax revenues would cost something like $6 trillion per year.

Not saying that's unrealistic, we spend more money than that on stupid shit all the time. I'm saying it's not something that would be sustainable for any length of time, IMO.
 
Why shouldn't all of society hold that burden?
Because the corporation is profiting off of it.

How so more than the rest of society? All of society benefits from people not living on the street. Again, why don't you want the automated corporations and idle rich paying their fair share for this benefit?
 
Because the labor is worth a lot more to the employees than it is to the employer.

So? If I have something to sell you that is worth more to me than it is to you, that means you must pay me more than it is worth to you?
Yes, if I I want to buy it from you. And if you're the only manufacturer of that product. If you have a deal with every other manufacturer of that product never to under-sell you, then I am screwed and am forced to accept your price. But price-fixing is illegal in most cases, or at least highly frowned upon, for the same reason monopolies used to be: it makes businesses less competitive and it makes it harder for people to DO business, which is therefore bad for the economy.

Workers are different. They're selling their labor because that is how they provide for their families and for themselves. Their ability to negotiate their prices depends on their ability to act collectively and make sure they can get the best prices they possibly can. Protecting that ability is a crucial function of a healthy democracy.

So make the people pay.
Theoretically, they already do. But because this is an issue of market value and collective bargaining, it is up to the market to determine HOW MUCH the people pay. If the rising minimum wage causes an increase in prices (which it probably will), then the people still pay. What's important is that not everyone will have to pay for every wage increase, only customers of those companies most affected by the wage hike.

That's important, because it can contain the negative effects of the wage increase to the markets that were most likely to cause the problem in the first place, while also concentrating the benefits. In the end, the minimum wage increase turns out to be a really good way to specifically target employers who have a tendency to cheat their employees; companies who already pay a fair wage won't be affected much, if at all, and their customers won't pay that much more (although they might MAKE more money and decide to pay more anyway because who doesn't like to eat at nice restaurants?)

Why put the full burden to support our fellow people on the employer and put none of it on the company that has automated or on the idle rich?
Because automation and/or the idle rich aren't the cause of shitty wages.

The cause of shitty wages is companies deciding to pay people shitty wages.

The companies that made that decision will no longer be allowed to pay people shitty wages. That is literally the most direct solution to that problem.
 
Who dictates what is and is not "Fair"? Historically, the government does. I'd respond to the rest but your first sentence is actually the downfall of your entire point so there's no need to.

The government determines for you what is fair? Only to an authoritarian follower.

Good, the faster we make human labor obsolete the better.

Yes, but without Universal Basic Income, that means a lot of starving and dying people.

Yes, yes it is. The only thing holding us back from total automation is practicality of robots in certain fields, but that is changing and quickly.

My local Tim Horton's Coffee shop still has human employees working the counter and the drive through. There are machines that can do this (as seen at McDonald's), but they are expensive. It is inevitable that these workers will be replaced by these machines. How quickly that happens depends on the relative cost of labor vs automation.

an employer can only let so many people go before they see a loss in productivity.

That depends on the particular business. Automation, relocation, etc is more viable for some businesses than others. Pushing up minimum wage puts the burden even further on those businesses that are less able to take such options.

I had a minimum wage job last year, and on occasion I got to see how much I brought in for the company I worked for at the end of my shift and then compare that to my take home. Even if they doubled my pay, my overall productivity as an employee is still worth more than my pay by two-to-four times. depending on the traffic on any particular day.

That is irrelevant. It doesn't matter to a business how much money you bring in if you can be replaced by somebody or something that costs less to generate the same income.

I already responded to this point in an earlier post. Further, if you offer tax relief to people who are working, you're going to need to make up for that shortfall somewhere. So who gets to suffer at the end of the day? People like my boyfriend who are incapable of working, or the rich who would need to be taxed to make up for it?

How do you expect to extract money from those incapable of working? Those incapable of working are those living on UBI... they obviously can't be the ones paying for it. The rich will obviously have to pay more in taxes, and rightly so. The rich get rich by having the society in place for them to work to get rich off of, so they should pay the burden of keeping that society going. All of them should pay this burden, not just those who hire employees. The idle rich and automated businesses (which are growing in number) shouldn't be able to shirk this and put it all on businesses that still hire employees.
 
How so more than the rest of society?
Literal profits, as in cash, not as in metaphorically profiting.

Paying $x for an employee to to y doesn't bring better profits than buying a machine for $x to do y.

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The government determines for you what is fair? Only to an authoritarian follower.

I AM THE GOVERNMENT!

Did you seriously never take a civics course in high school or something?

You are not the government. WE are the government.... in a perfect non-corrupt democratic system, which we don't have. And even if we did, group decisions are not always fair to individuals.
 
"Worth to them"? The value of labor isn't a fixed thing. In general, corporations will pay the lowest amount they can get away with for labor. Even today, corporations are fined for underpaying or not paying for labor (big and small companies).

They buy at the market rate.
No they don't. Many of them go out of their way to pay the lowest rate they can get away with. If they can convince qualified people to accept LESS than market rate, they absolutely will.

Why shouldn't all of society hold that burden?
Because all of society isn't the cause of that particular problem. Just penny-pinching companies that do everything they can to fuck their workers. The solution should be targeted at the cause of the problem, not at the entire society in which the problem broadly exists.

Why should employers (big and small; not all of them corporations) be responsible for anything but the fair exchange at the market value for labour?
Because EMPLOYERS shouldn't be responsible for that at all. WORKERS should be responsible for that. And the way workers do that is by getting their government to pass laws that determine what "fair" means. Hence the minimum wage.

You have that question backwards. Having people not living on the street is something the whole of society should be concerned with and responsible for, not just those who buy labour.
Sure, but that is an entirely different can of worms.
 
Literal profits, as in cash, not as in metaphorically profiting.

Paying $x for an employee to to y doesn't bring better profits than buying a machine for $x to do y.

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The government determines for you what is fair? Only to an authoritarian follower.

I AM THE GOVERNMENT!

Did you seriously never take a civics course in high school or something?

You are not the government. WE are the government.... in a perfect non-corrupt democratic system, which we don't have. And even if we did, group decisions are not always fair to individuals.

"I" am a part of "WE". Don't try to out-pedantry me, okay?

Edit: In fact, I'm not even being pedantic!
 
Literal profits, as in cash, not as in metaphorically profiting.

Paying $x for an employee to to y doesn't bring better profits than buying a machine for $x to do y.
Automation doesn't work that way.

A high precision CNC machine might cost $24,000 as a one-time buy and then run up $8,000 worth of maintenance and repairs over a five year period. That's $32,000 over five years, or $6,400 a year. Maybe this machine replaces a machinist who used to make $40,000 a year... except now, you have to hire a technician and a specialist in CAD design who makes $45,000 a year to operate this same machine. Plus, the old machines you used to have -- metal benders, lathes, saws, etc -- also weren't cheap to purchase.

So in the end, you aren't paying anything less than you used to.

But the advantage of automation isn't the reduction of wages. The advantage of automation is that this one engineer with his one CNC machine is TEN TIMES AS PRODUCTIVE as he used to be, and his products are ten times as good. So while your labor prices actually slightly increase, your REVENUES multiply considerably. Then you buy another CNC machine and another technician, double your revenue. Rinse and repeat.

Of course, a machnist isn't going to earn anything close to minimum wage, so raising the minimum wage to $15 isn't going to even be a blip on that company's radar. It might slightly increase their shipping costs, however, which might make them want to invest in more CNC machines so they can offset the increased cost of shipping with greater volume. But the wage increase won't affect them at all.

Believe when I say that any minimum wage job that can be replaced by automation either has already, or is about to be. Raising wages will not change that, and LOWERING wages certainly won't.
 
Many of them go out of their way to pay the lowest rate they can get away with. If they can convince qualified people to accept LESS than market rate, they absolutely will.

That is how a free market works. UBI will shift it in favour of the employees.

Why shouldn't all of society hold that burden?

Because all of society isn't the cause of that particular problem.

Sure it is. The problem is that cost of living is too high for the person to be able to live a decent life. The question is then who should supplement their income above and beyond the market rate for their labour. I don't see why their employer should take all of that burden.

The solution should be targeted at the cause of the problem, not at the entire society in which the problem broadly exists.

The problem is lack of money to live a decent life on. Employment isn't the cause of that problem.

You have that question backwards. Having people not living on the street is something the whole of society should be concerned with and responsible for, not just those who buy labour.
Sure, but that is an entirely different can of worms.

No. It is the same can. We are talking about fair distribution of the worms. Why should the idle rich and automated companies and the rest of society not take any worms? Why should the employer, the one entity that is already taking worms from the can, have to take more of them when all benefit from the emptying the can?
 
That is how a free market works. UBI will shift it in favour of the employees.
So would the minimum wage increase. The only difference is it wouldn't cost the taxpayers nearly as much, and it would only affect those companies that are screwing those workers who cannot afford to be that screwed. Because corporations are not people, have no feelings, lives or basic human rights, I have no objection to screwing them over.

UBI is a great idea, it's just not the solution to THIS problem.

Why shouldn't all of society hold that burden?

Because all of society isn't the cause of that particular problem.

Sure it is. The problem is that cost of living is too high for the person to be able to live a decent life. The question is then who should supplement their income above and beyond the market rate for their labour. I don't see why their employer should take all of that burden.
"The employer" doesn't. Only a certain small number of companies that refuse to pay people a living wage would be affected. The burden, therefore, is on those who are dependent on cheap, unsustainable labor rates. Other companies that already pay a living wage or better are not actually part of the problem.

The problem is lack of money to live a decent life on. Employment isn't the cause of that problem.
Underemployment is the cause of the problem. So the solution is to make underemployment illegal.

No. It is the same can. We are talking about fair distribution of the worms. Why should the idle rich and automated companies and the rest of society not take any worms?
Because the idle rich and "automated companies" (whatever that means) aren't the ones paying people shitty wages they can't live on. The people who insist on under-paying their employees are the problem, so we should simply make it illegal to pay people too little to live on. That's collective bargaining on a massive scale.

Why should the employer, the one entity that is already taking worms from the can, have to take more of them when all benefit from the emptying the can?
Because you're wrong about that: not everyone actually benefits. Even the implementation of UBI wouldn't affect workers making 3 or 4 times the current poverty level. They couldn't sustain their existing lifestyle on basic, and their employers know this. Basic works as a SAFETY NET, but it's useless as a bargaining tool.

Substituting a minimum wage with Basic would also only affect the poorest employees while also making their labor market ALOT more competitive. A highly qualified employee will almost always be preferred over a less qualified one, but will also be under pressure to accept the lowest wage the company can get away with. Since there's no "bottom" of the payscale, companies can actually pressure workers to take less and less over time and "Well, it's okay, you still have Basic."

That's not what workers want. They want a living wage and room to GROW from that wage over time. "Basic" promises them rescue from the worst effects of poverty and then a long hard slog to something that might begin to resemble mediocrity.
 
How about both? A basic living income plus a $15/hr minimum wage. And make the basic income apply to every adult rather than per household. That way two-parent families live better than singles. People need to have some hope of improving their lives. In the current system (aka, capitalist ideology) income below some threshold means no hope of ever getting ahead or saving for opportunities when they occur (basic economic sense, like stocking up on food when it's on sale). BLI offers not just a way for individuals and families to get by but, most importantly, as a hope for their children's futures. Higher minumum wage provides that, plus the possibility of advancement through meaningful (aka, creative) effort. Not simply waiting for a machine or offshore worker to eventually confirm one's uselessness.
 
The problem is lack of money to live a decent life on. Employment isn't the cause of that problem.
Underemployment is the cause of the problem. So the solution is to make underemployment illegal.

Underemployment? Like a doctor driving a taxi cab or people on reduced hours who can't find more work? Why would you make that illegal?

No. It is the same can. We are talking about fair distribution of the worms. Why should the idle rich and automated companies and the rest of society not take any worms?
Because the idle rich and "automated companies" (whatever that means) aren't the ones paying people shitty wages they can't live on.

True. They aren't paying anything at all for the person to live on. At least the employer is paying something. The question here is should the employer pay the full load to bring them up to a living income or should we all be responsible for that.

The people who insist on under-paying their employees are the problem

You keep repeating this bit about underpaying. If they are paying the free market rate they are not underpaying. They are paying what the work is worth. If they are being forced to pay more than that then they are being exploited for the gain of the idle rich and automated companies (by which I mean companies that do not hire employees) and the rest of society. As we've agreed, more and more work is going to become automated, which means this burden will fall on fewer and fewer, or shift moreso onto those that hire more rather than fewer employees. This unfair distribution is set to increase over time unless we do something to even out of the burden (which UBI paid for through taxes based on income/profit level would do).

Why should the employer, the one entity that is already taking worms from the can, have to take more of them when all benefit from the emptying the can?
Because you're wrong about that: not everyone actually benefits.

Yes, everyone benefits from not having our fellow human beings unable to pay for the cost of living, and starving or going without shelter, etc.

Even the implementation of UBI wouldn't affect workers making 3 or 4 times the current poverty level. They couldn't sustain their existing lifestyle on basic, and their employers know this. Basic works as a SAFETY NET, but it's useless as a bargaining tool.

UBI doesn't solve all problems, but it does cover the same issue minimum wage is said to cover (and fails to cover if employers lay off workers or cheat them). Why do you want to make people entirely reliant on these very companies that you claim are cheating them now? UBI is also indeed a bargaining tool, for those at the bottom, as the desperation of absolutely needing to work is taken away.

Substituting minimum wage with Basic would also only affect the poorest employees while also making their labor market ALOT more competitive. A highly qualified employee will almost always be preferred over a less qualified one, but will also be under pressure to accept the lowest wage the company can get away with. Since there's no "bottom" of the payscale, companies can actually pressure workers to take less and less over time and "Well, it's okay, you still have Basic."

So what? Adjust Basic to a level where people can get by. Some will choose that route and others will work for more money, set at a rate employers are agreeable to pay. As technology takes out human labour more and more people will be in the former group and the latter will diminish.


"Basic" promises them rescue from the worst effects of poverty and then a long hard slog to something that might begin to resemble mediocrity.

UBI covers basic income; enough to survive on, and no more. Why is that a problem? If they want more they can contract out their labour for what employers will pay, start their own business, etc. While living on mere UBI they could also go to school to get training for higher paying jobs. Educated society benefits all, so again that should be funded by all, and not exclusively by their current employers.
 
How about both? A basic living income plus a $15/hr minimum wage. And make the basic income apply to every adult rather than per household.

Absolutely make it to every adult, and the existing tax system can be used. It would work like a negative tax, giving people money instead of taking it from them, or factoring into what they are paying in taxes.

In the current system (aka, capitalist ideology) income below some threshold means no hope of ever getting ahead or saving for opportunities when they occur (basic economic sense, like stocking up on food when it's on sale).

We need education funded through taxes and provided to all. Universal single payer health care as well. These too should be a burden taken on by society at large, through taxes, and not put all on one particular group (employers). Requirements from government forcing employers to pay health care for employees in the US is nonsensical and unfair. Universal Health Care single payer is the way to go. Education and income people needed over the current market rate of their labour should be the same.

Higher minumum wage provides that, plus the possibility of advancement through meaningful (aka, creative) effort. Not simply waiting for a machine or offshore worker to eventually confirm one's uselessness.

I don't see what minimum wage adds that is of any benefit here. And I also predict that as UBI comes in, wages will naturally increase and you won't need this $15 minimum wage, as companies will lose bargaining power and employees will be able to demand more. They have to pay enough to encourage employees to come work for them instead of staying home living at a subsistence level on just UBI. The spectre of starvation and homelessness would no longer force people to take crappy jobs for little pay. Low paying dirty and dangerous jobs nobody wants to do today other than to survive could see their pay rates shoot way up.
 
You're describing exactly why I don't support increasing the minimum wage.

I don't think it's time yet for a universal basic income but I would like to see the government supplement low wage work--something along the lines of our earned income tax credit but larger.

My boyfriend is on disability. He gets roughly 600-ish from the government every month, 550 of that used to go right to rent. I dont think taxes are the problem.

Which is an issue with our disability system, not with taxes or minimum wage.
 
It's been my observation that a person needs to earn a minimum of $25 and hour at a full time job to support a spouse and two kids in a modest home. This with wearing everything out.
I prefer a minimum wage and hours worked scaled to a person's age so that by time they were say 28, they would be making this $25 minimum and have to be guaranteed 40 hours of work per week.

Then they need to get some marketable skills!

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Minimum wage is higher in Australia without having significantly higher or lower levels of unemployment than any other comparable economy.

1) They have training wages that take the place of most of the minimum wage jobs in the US.

2) Purchasing power--Australia's wage isn't that much higher than ours once you look at what things cost.
 
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