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Ontario raising minimum wage to $15

Have you noticed yet that the companies that are beginning to replace workers with automation are companies like McDonalds and Walmart whose quarterly profits are already in the high billions? A company that is on the margins and can't afford a wage hike isn't going to be able to afford a switch to automation either, especially if the demand for those systems goes up and the price of IT support services for those systems does as well.

Have you noticed how many workers are involved in such places, though? Looking at their total profits is a mistake, you need to look at profits as a % of gross revenue or a % of total labor to see how much margin there actually is. Looking at the gross number is a case of lying with statistics.

you are in effect conceding every time you do that because my position only requires it to be non-zero.

Is THAT your position now? That "raising the minimum wage will cause at least one person to be fired by an employer who can no longer afford his salary?"

Well it took 15 pages, but it looks like you have finally moved the goalposts to a position where you might actually be right.:joy:

You were insisting there would be no job loss. I've been rebutting that.
 
Have you noticed how many workers are involved in such places, though? Looking at their total profits is a mistake
You have been crowing about minimum wage depressing profit margins for FIFTEEN FUCKING PAGES. Now you're saying profits don't even matter?

Looking at the gross number is a case of lying with statistics.
That makes no sense. McDonalds is rolling out its automation systems at the same time it is voluntarily raising wages for its workers. Actions speak louder than words, and they sure as hell speak louder than statistics.

You were insisting there would be no job loss.
Nope. We covered that 12 pages ago when I said
Marginal businesses that cannot afford the increases will either get their act together, or they'll go under.
And also when I said:
There will be losers and there will be winners. Business owners that are innovative and forward thinking will make a killing off the wage hike. Business owners that are trying to squeeze blood from the financial stone of low-skill labor will loose out big time.
And also when I said:
But he's going to get fired much sooner at $15/hr.
He's going to get fired NO MATTER WHAT. That's what it means to be a crappy employee. And if you are a crappy enough employee that your boss doesn't want you working for him, any wage you can agree to work for will not actually save your job.

And no, you haven't "been" rebutting that strawman claim you made up. Until 4 pages ago you were claiming that minimum wage forces the profit rates of entire industries too low and results in job loss. When that argument fell apart, you switched tracks and claimed that companies that use automation are TOO profitable and destroy their competitors, resulting in job loss.

What will you think up next? Let me guess: raising the minimum wage results in higher taxes, which makes people angry, and angry people start riots, and riots cause property damage, which causes job loss.
 
I wonder if Loren uses the "hurts just one person" argument against every policy or just the ones he doesn't like.
 
I wonder if Loren uses the "hurts just one person" argument against every policy or just the ones he doesn't like.

Is this why you go to such absurd lengths to delude yourself into believing the minimum wage doesn't hurt people?
 
You have been crowing about minimum wage depressing profit margins for FIFTEEN FUCKING PAGES. Now you're saying profits don't even matter?

Nice job of failing to understand what I'm saying.

I'm saying you're looking at the wrong units--you're looking at profits as $ rather than profits as a %. It makes it easy to demonize the big companies but doesn't give any actual understanding of what can be done.

Looking at the gross number is a case of lying with statistics.
That makes no sense. McDonalds is rolling out its automation systems at the same time it is voluntarily raising wages for its workers. Actions speak louder than words, and they sure as hell speak louder than statistics.

Raising wages--but fewer worker/hours because of that automation. From the Seattle data it looks like we are about at the tipping point where the reduced hours cost more than the increased rate gains.

You were insisting there would be no job loss.
Nope. We covered that 12 pages ago when I

You tried to push the job loss off onto business owners that don't adapt to the new ways. Yes, in practice that is likely to happen. What I have been showing is that even if that doesn't happen there would be job loss.

I think I understand the problem here--this looks like yet another case of ignoring the bad results of a do-no-evil approach. You help the workers with the minimum wage increase, the people who end up unemployed are suffering because of "bad" business owners, not because of your actions. You don't care about the outcome, only of the morality of your position.

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I wonder if Loren uses the "hurts just one person" argument against every policy or just the ones he doesn't like.

It hurts a lot of people.

- - - Updated - - -

I wonder if Loren uses the "hurts just one person" argument against every policy or just the ones he doesn't like.

Is this why you go to such absurd lengths to delude yourself into believing the minimum wage doesn't hurt people?

sure, why not?

So you admit that you're deluded and have no idea of what you're talking about.
 
Nice job of failing to understand what I'm saying.

I'm saying you're looking at the wrong units--you're looking at profits as $ rather than profits as a %.
Ten billion dollars of profit is ten billion dollars more than the company lost in expenses and overhead. It doesn't matter if that's 2% or 99%, that's how much profit they have to work with in absorbing new expenses. They can either afford the new expenses or they can't.

Raising wages--but fewer worker/hours because of that automation.
McDonalds is not cutting hours OR laying off workers, as per the article I quoted. It seems they've actually learned from their mistakes and have recognized that one of the biggest contributors to their losses in previous years was the horrible service in all of their stores, which is a direct result of their staff being underpaid and overworked. Hiring more workers and paying them better has resulted in better service, which means customers are less likely to say "Let's no go to McDonalds today. Their service sucks and so does their food."

You tried to push the job loss off onto business owners that don't adapt to the new ways.
I'm not "pushing" anything. Business owners that can't adapt to change don't stay in business. Rising wages is one of those changes. The CAUSE of change is irrelevant.

Do you think people who loose their jobs because their boss can't adapt to change should be protected from that job loss? I certainly do. That's why welfare programs and unemployment insurance exists.

The minimum wage, however, is a provision to make labor profitable to people who actually HAVE jobs, not to protect people who cannot obtain one in the first place. If you choose not to participate in the labor market for whatever reason -- you don't have the skills to compete, or you are raising children at home, or you are a full time student, or you are taking an unpaid internship to improve your skills and connections in your field, or you are doing volunteer work for the red cross or missionary work, etc -- there are programs in place to help you and laws in place to protect you. But the minimum wage is designed to protect the employed. Not the unemployed, not the incompetent, not the conservative, not the unimaginative.

You help the workers with the minimum wage increase, the people who end up unemployed are suffering because of "bad" business owners, not because of your actions. You don't care about the outcome, only of the morality of your position.
Since I am not aware of any moral imperative that favors "prevent the loss of unskilled labor jobs" over all other considerations, I am struggling to make sense of this statement. I happen to believe that in a balance between "loss of jobs for unskilled workers" and "increased profitability for unskilled workers who do have jobs" the latter is the clear winner. Especially in the case that the social safety net, subsidies and legal protections exist -- and can be strengthened -- for those in the former category.

Put simply: It is better than a few fall into the safety net and have to climb back out of it than have EVERYONE languish in inescapable poverty for another generation. If you think the safety net is inadequate to alleviate their suffering, you have only your "throwing money at it won't solve the problem!" ideology to blame for that.
 
I wonder if Loren uses the "hurts just one person" argument against every policy or just the ones he doesn't like.

Is this why you go to such absurd lengths to delude yourself into believing the minimum wage doesn't hurt people?


Are people expected to work for virtually nothing in order to prop up some business that's probably failing because of oversupply?
 
Is this why you go to such absurd lengths to delude yourself into believing the minimum wage doesn't hurt people?


Are people expected to work for virtually nothing in order to prop up some business that's probably failing because of oversupply?

Plus, one can make the case that it is far more harmful to society for people to be working a full time schedule (or two) while remaining in poverty than it is for them to be unemployed on welfare/public assistance. In the latter case, those would be workers are still just as poor, but also have TIME as a resource they can invest in self improvement and retraining to eventually escape from poverty.
 
Ten billion dollars of profit is ten billion dollars more than the company lost in expenses and overhead. It doesn't matter if that's 2% or 99%, that's how much profit they have to work with in absorbing new expenses. They can either afford the new expenses or they can't.

% gives a far better picture of what they actually can do. You're being blinded by big numbers.

Raising wages--but fewer worker/hours because of that automation.
McDonalds is not cutting hours OR laying off workers, as per the article I quoted. It seems they've actually learned from their mistakes and have recognized that one of the biggest contributors to their losses in previous years was the horrible service in all of their stores, which is a direct result of their staff being underpaid and overworked. Hiring more workers and paying them better has resulted in better service, which means customers are less likely to say "Let's no go to McDonalds today. Their service sucks and so does their food."

Short-staffing hurts. That's a different issue than automation.

You tried to push the job loss off onto business owners that don't adapt to the new ways.
I'm not "pushing" anything. Business owners that can't adapt to change don't stay in business. Rising wages is one of those changes. The CAUSE of change is irrelevant.

You are pushing blame so you can pretend it wasn't from your change. Do-no-evil all too often leads to great evil so long as one can do the mental gymnastics to decide that the evil was someone else's fault.

The minimum wage, however, is a provision to make labor profitable to people who actually HAVE jobs, not to protect people who cannot obtain one in the first place. If you choose not to participate in the labor market for whatever reason -- you don't have the skills to compete, or you are raising children at home, or you are a full time student, or you are taking an unpaid internship to improve your skills and connections in your field, or you are doing volunteer work for the red cross or missionary work, etc -- there are programs in place to help you and laws in place to protect you. But the minimum wage is designed to protect the employed. Not the unemployed, not the incompetent, not the conservative, not the unimaginative.

The minimum wage was explicitly designed to force the bottom people out of the labor market. It still works as designed.

Put simply: It is better than a few fall into the safety net and have to climb back out of it than have EVERYONE languish in inescapable poverty for another generation. If you think the safety net is inadequate to alleviate their suffering, you have only your "throwing money at it won't solve the problem!" ideology to blame for that.

The problem is that you are trying to chop off the path to climb out of the net.

- - - Updated - - -

Are people expected to work for virtually nothing in order to prop up some business that's probably failing because of oversupply?

Plus, one can make the case that it is far more harmful to society for people to be working a full time schedule (or two) while remaining in poverty than it is for them to be unemployed on welfare/public assistance. In the latter case, those would be workers are still just as poor, but also have TIME as a resource they can invest in self improvement and retraining to eventually escape from poverty.

Reality: This is a pipe dream. Retraining is a total joke. And the route to self-improvement is to be in the labor force.
 
You are pushing blame

I'm pushing responsibility. Business owners are responsible for whether or not their business succeeds or fails. Government regulations, wage laws, weather conditions and Barrack Obama, not so much.

Aren't you really big into personal responsibility? I thought you were. Maybe I'm wrong?

The minimum wage was explicitly designed to force the bottom people out of the labor market.
No, it was specifically designed to benefit American workers so that people who work a full-time job will not have to languish in inescapable poverty.

It is not possible to "force someone out" of the labor market.

The problem is that you are trying to chop off the path to climb out of the net.
Gainful employment is a path out of the net. The minimum wage protects that path. How one gets on the path in the first place is a totally different issue with a totally different solution... maybe you should spend some time thinking about what that solution actually is before you try to pretend "lower the minimum wage" should be part of it?

Reality: This is a pipe dream. Retraining is a total joke.
Not for those who have no useful skills to begin with (e.g. those who have to work for minimum wage).

the route to self-improvement is to be in the labor force.

And no one who is in the labor force and working full time should have to languish in poverty. Thus the minimum wage is the law.
 
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