bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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Lumpenproletariat seems to think..
I disagree.
Lumpenproletariat seems to think..
Your MHORC seems to require the miracles to be recorded by someone(s) not currently part of the cult (aka random puzzle piece;
This is not "random" but is a relevant factor that increases the credibility. If the claims come only from disciples of the guru or alleged miracle-worker, then we have less reason to believe them because the disciple is intimidated by the guru's charisma and feels pressure to confirm the miracle claim being made. Or the disciple is easily deceived and can imagine seeing something that didn't really happen, or misinterpret as a miracle something that was really normal. The obsession with the guru distorts the disciple's critical judgment.
. . . which you conveniently leave out the fact that you CLEARLY have no evidence to support that your cult’s parlor tricks weren’t recorded by participating cultists).
There is evidence that the miracles of Jesus were observed and reported by onlookers who were not his disciples. For most of the Jesus miracle acts, the accounts clearly imply that observers or non-disciples went from the scene to tell others and spread the word about his healing acts. Very few of these acts were done privately with no outsiders/onlookers present. In most cases this is implied rather than stated explicitly, but it's clearly there in the wording of the accounts.
I agree that it would be a relevant factor supporting believability of a claim. However, the point is that you don’t have anything to support the notion.
Also, we did this dance already, and I went thru Mark and showed how most of the miracle accounts were most likely recorded by disciples, and then secondarily unknowable.
Let’s take a walk thru the miracles within GMark and look for internal evidence for who could have possibly or probably passed on this implausible stories. This of course assumes that the sagas weren’t made up shit from months to decades later.
Mark 1:21-38 said:They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
I’d say the first sentence gives it away, as most likely sourced from a disciple.
And nothing is suggestive of mysterious onlookers doing the telling.
Mark 1:21-38 said:They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach. 22 They were amazed at His teaching;
(Disciples: 1; onlookers: 0)
Mark 1:21-38 said:They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach. 22 They were amazed at His teaching;
. . . for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. 23 Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit;
. . . and he cried out, 24 saying, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!” 25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be quiet, and come out of him!” 26 Throwing him into convulsions, the unclean spirit cried out with a loud voice and came out of him. 27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.
Ummmmmm.... No, Lumpy. This is not a credible analysis of the miracle stories in the Bible.Whereas for the Jesus stories there is a count, like 4-1, or 8-2, etc., meaning most of the stories fit the pattern that non-disciples were present.
Except, as you have been shown over and over, it is only your wish, not fact, that the oral stories were passed on by people not currently part of the cult. It could be true, but there is no evidence to show it so. The Lord of the Rings has Hobbits talking. That doesn’t mean that Hobbits can talk.Your MHORC seems to require the miracles to be recorded by someone(s) not currently part of the cult (aka random puzzle piece;
[for clarification: The miracles were REPORTED by someone not currently part of the cult -- That's what the "MHORC" requires. There were reports about them from NON-disciples, mostly oral, perhaps even written much later. But this doesn't mean they were not also recorded by disciples.]
Clearly, you also fail to comprehend the meaning of the word “fact”.FiS said:Also, we did this dance already, and I went thru Mark and showed how most of the miracle accounts were most likely recorded by disciples, and then secondarily unknowable.
Of course they were later recorded in writing by believers (probably not direct disciples). But this doesn't change the fact that at the original events there were onlookers or NON-disciples present who went out and told others what happened. And the resulting stories or rumors or gossip caused general stories to circulate and become part of the oral tradition used by the later writers, as they presented their version of this in the form of a "gospel of Christ" for circulation.
So a believer writes, "A non-believer saw Jesus perform a supernatural miracle."
And from that, we declare the non-believer to be a reliable witness?
Mark 1:29-31 said:And immediately after they came out of the synagogue, they came into the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John. 30 Now Simon’s mother-in-law was lying sick with a fever; and immediately they spoke to Jesus about her. 31 And He came to her and raised her up, taking her by the hand, and the fever left her, and she waited on them.
Yeah, you are probably right here, there was probably a peep hiding in Simon’s house trying to get sick, . . .
. . . and happened to onlook upon this and spread the story all the way to the Fiji.
(Disciples: 2; onlookers: 0)
Now just who could have been able to record the below sequence? Was a stranger with him in the morning before Jesus and the disciples woke up? Or is it far more likely that this story came right from one of the purported disciples?
Mark 1:35-45 said:In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there. 36 Simon and his companions searched for Him; 37 they found Him, and said to Him, “Everyone is looking for You.” 38 He said to them, “Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach there also; for that is what I came for.” 39 And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.
40 And a leper came to Jesus, beseeching Him and . . .
. . . falling on his knees before Him, and saying, “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” 41 Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, “I am willing; be cleansed.” 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed. 43 And He sternly warned him and immediately sent him away, 44 and He said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” 45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely and to spread the news around, to such an extent that . . .
(Disciples: 3; onlookers: 0)
. . . Jesus could no longer publicly enter a city, but stayed out in unpopulated areas; and they were coming to Him from everywhere.
Mark 2:1-3 said:When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home. 2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.
This one isn’t definitive, but the intro modestly suggests someone close, as they know he had been home for several days, but I’ll just call this one a tossup with no real internal guidance.
(Disciples: 3; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 1)
3 And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. 4 And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and when they had made an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic lay. 5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven." 6 Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 8 And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, "Why do you question thus in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise, take up your pallet and walk'? 10 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --he said to the paralytic-- 11 "I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home." 12 And he rose, and immediately took up the pallet and went out before them all; so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, "We never saw anything like this!"
How would the stories be any different if they were complete fabrications, Lumpy?NON-disciples are usually present,
No, they did not. Because these never happened.and in many cases they subsequently report it to others.
Now this one was either passed on by a Pharisee (who was conspiring against Jesus) or by Jesus retelling it to someone, as only the Pharisees and the FSM would know of their “conspiring".
Mark 3:1-6 said:He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered. 2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him. 3 He said to the man with the withered hand, “Get up and come forward!” 4 And He said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent. 5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored. 6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
It is most unlikely that the Pharisees would have acted in that way. The most wicked among them would never have resolved to kill Jesus because he had performed a work of healing on the Sabbath -- a permissible deed anyway. For this reason Luke's version (6:11) is preferable here. (Flusser, Jesus, p. 64)
Luke 6: 10 And he looked around on them all, and said to him, "Stretch out your hand." And he did so, and his hand was restored. 11 But they were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus.
Flusser, p. 64: Few scholars have noted the distinctively different ending to Luke's account or the tendentious English translation of άνοια, "But they were filled with fury." The English translators have rendered the Greek word in light of Mark's ending (cp. Mark 3:6; Matt. 12:14). The Greek term, however, is never elsewhere translated "anger, fury, wrath." [See Liddell & R. Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon . . . Instead, those watching should be understood to be filled with "frustration, bafflement."
And we know that Jesus had a direct line with the FSM. So I think this one would have to be passed along by one of the disciples again.
(Disciples: 4; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 1).
Jesus stilling the Storm Mark 4:35-41: Yeah no need to quote this one.
(Disciples: 5; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 1)
The Gerasene Demoniac is a harder one to categorize. The first sentence suggests a person who knew where they came from:
Mark 5:1-20 said:They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. 2 When He got out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him.
But the ending could easily suggest the formerly possessed man carried the story forward.
Mark 5:1-20 said:They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gerasenes. 2 When He got out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met Him. < snip > . . . [miracle healing event happens] 14 The herdsmen fled, and told it in the city and in the country. And people came to see what it was that had happened.
15 And they came to Jesus, and saw the demoniac sitting there, clothed and in his right mind, the man who had had the legion; and they were afraid. 16 And those who had seen it described to them how it had happened to the demon-possessed man, and all about the swine. 17 And they began to implore Him to leave their region.
18 As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed was imploring Him that he might accompany Him. 19 And He did not let him, but He said to him, “Go home to your people and report to them what great things the Lord has done for you, and how He had mercy on you.” 20 And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things Jesus had done for him; and everyone was amazed.
However, as Jesus is part of the tri-headed god, he would also know what happened in Decapolis. IMPOV, the reality is that only Jesus and his disciples could know the whole story, . . .
. . . but I’ll let this one slide into unknowable.
(Disciples: 5; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 2)
The healing of the dead (or just a [comatose]/sleeping) Daughter of Jairus and the women who just touched his garments: Mark 5:21-43.
21 And when Jesus had crossed again in the boat to the other side, a great crowd gathered about him;
and he was beside the sea. 22 Then came one of the rulers of the synagogue, Ja'irus by name; and seeing him, . . .
. . . he fell at his feet, 23 and besought him, saying, "My little daughter is at the point of death. Come and lay your hands on her, so that she may be made well, and live." 24 And he went with him. And a great crowd followed him and thronged about him.
25 And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years, 26 and who had suffered much under many physicians, . . .
. . . and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27 She had heard the reports about Jesus, . . .
. . . and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28 For she said, "If I touch even his garments, I shall be made well." 29 And immediately the hemorrhage ceased; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30 And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone forth from him, immediately turned about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?" 31 And his disciples said to him, "You see the crowd pressing around you, and yet you say, 'Who touched me?'"
32 And he looked around to see who had done it. 33 But the woman, knowing what had been done to her, came in fear and trembling and fell down before him, and told him the whole truth. 34 And he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease." 35 While he was still speaking, there came from the ruler's house some who said, "Your daughter is dead. Why trouble the Teacher any further?" 36 But ignoring what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, "Do not fear, only believe." 37 And he allowed no one to follow him except Peter and James and John the brother of James.
38 When they came to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, he saw a tumult, and people weeping and wailing loudly. 39 And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping." 40 And they laughed at him. But he put them all outside, and took the child's father and mother and those who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 Taking her by the hand he said to her, "Tal'itha cu'mi"; which means, "Little girl, I say to you, arise." 42 And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement. 43 And he strictly charged them that no one should know this, and told them to give her something to eat.
But the saga plays as one sequence, and only the people who were part of the whole sequence would know both of the . . .
. . . both of the ill mystery woman and Jairus’ daughters healing within the saga.
I think the only reasonable choice is again the disciples.
(Disciples: 6; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 2)
-- and so on.Mark 6:30-39+ said:30 The apostles gathered together with Jesus; and they reported to Him all that they had done and taught. 31 And He said to them, “Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while.” (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.) 32 They went away in the boat to a secluded place by themselves. 33 The people saw them going, and many recognized them and ran there together on foot from all the cities, and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus went ashore, He saw a large crowd, and He felt compassion for them because they were like sheep without a shepherd; and He began to teach them many things. 35 When it was already quite late, His disciples came to Him and said, “This place is desolate and it is already quite late; 36 send them away so that they may go into the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.” 37 But He answered them, “You give them something to eat!” And they said to Him, “Shall we go and spend two hundred denarii on bread and give them something to eat?” 38 And He said to them, “How many loaves do you have? Go look!” And when they found out, they said, “Five, and two fish.” 39 And He commanded them all to sit down by groups on the green grass.
This one’s lead in quite clearly puts the story in the disciple category, . . .
. . . as it includes private conversation.
(Disciples: 7; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 2)
In 7 of 9 miracle stories, non-disciples are among the witnesses.
Jesus Walking on the Water Mark 6:47-56: Yeah, a private event, another onlooker fail.
(Disciples: 8; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 2)
Mark 6: 53 And when they had crossed over, they came to land at Gennes'aret, and moored to the shore. 54 And when they got out of the boat, immediately the people recognized him, 55 and ran about the whole neighborhood and began to bring sick people on their pallets to any place where they heard he was. 56 And wherever he came, in villages, cities, or country, they laid the sick in the market places, and besought him that they might touch even the fringe of his garment; and as many as touched it were made well.
This passage slips from the previous event, to this event, which is about the only suggestion of who would be telling the tale.
Mark 7:24-30 said:Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 28 But she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children’s crumbs.” 29 And He said to her, “Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” 30 And she went home, and found the child lying in bed, and the demon gone.
I guess one could posit that the woman passed on the tale of her daughter's healing, and the editor of Mark merely smoothed out the flow between micro sagas. However, there is nothing internally to suggest this is so, but I’ll still give it a weak unknowable.
(Disciples: 9; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 3)
Why? It's meaningless...(this Wall of Text to be continued)
Mark 7:31-37 said:31 Then he returned from the region of Tyre, and went through Sidon to the Sea of Galilee, through the region of the Decap'olis. 32 And they brought to him a man who was deaf and had an impediment in his speech; and they besought him to lay his hand upon him. 33 And taking him aside from the multitude privately, he put his fingers into his ears, and he spat and touched his tongue; 34 and looking up to heaven, he sighed, and said to him, "Eph'phatha," that is, "Be opened." 35 And his ears were opened, his tongue was released, and he spoke plainly. 36 And he charged them to tell no one; but the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it. 37 And they were astonished beyond measure, saying, "He has done all things well; he even makes the deaf hear and the dumb speak."
Well, here is one miracle event where it is at least unclear who would have been likely to have passed it along. Even the “they” isn’t clear as to whether it is the crowd or the disciples. But, even so, this is hardly a win for the “onlooker” category.
(Disciples: 9; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 4)
We don’t need to read the whole feeding of 4,000 to realize that this is also recorded by someone who was a disciple, . . .
. . . as Jesus had a private conversation with his disciples as they were whining about what to do about food for so many.
(Disciples: 10; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 4)
Mark 8:1-4 said:In those days, when there was again a large crowd and they had nothing to eat, Jesus called His disciples and said to them, 2 “I feel compassion for the people because they have remained with Me now three days and have nothing to eat. 3 If I send them away hungry to their homes, they will faint on the way; and some of them have come from a great distance.” 4 And His disciples answered Him, “Where will anyone be able to find enough bread here in this desolate place to satisfy these people?”
And the next story: This time the “they” is clearly his disciples.
Mark 8:22-26 said:And they came to Bethsaida. And they brought a blind man to Jesus and implored Him to touch him. 23 Taking the blind man by the hand, He brought him out of the village; and after spitting on his eyes and laying His hands on him, He asked him, “Do you see anything?” 24 And he looked up and said, “I see men, for I see them like trees, walking around.” 25 Then again He laid His hands on his eyes; and he looked intently and was restored, and began to see everything clearly. 26 And He sent him to his home, saying, “Do not even enter the village.”
Though this time, the story really doesn’t internally give much of any hints as to who is telling the tale, so it could have been an onlooker or a disciple.
Not really a Lumpy win here either.
(Disciples: 10; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 5)
“we must…” You are funny.(continued from previous Wall of Text)
Yeah, you are probably right here, there was probably a peep hiding in Simon’s house trying to get sick, . . .
No, this is one case where there were no outsiders present. But you're assuming the general details are correct, as with all these examples. We are trusting the account to give us the details generally, minus the miracle event, which is the only part we treat as doubtful.
. . . and happened to onlook upon this and spread the story all the way to the Fiji.
(Disciples: 2; onlookers: 0)
Your scoreboard is meaningless. In virtually all these cases (this one excepted) there were disciples AND NON-disciples present. And usually we must conclude (from what's implied in the text) that some of the non-disciples subsequently told others about it.
You almost get close here. You are debating what the characters of a story did outside of said story. Unfortunately, we have nothing outside the Gospels to corroborate these purported side characters.This particular account clearly implies no one was present except these disciples. Whereas most/all the other healing stories imply there were non-disciples present.
3. Leper healed (plus many cases of "casting out the demons")
Now just who could have been able to record the below sequence? Was a stranger with him in the morning before Jesus and the disciples woke up? Or is it far more likely that this story came right from one of the purported disciples?
Mark 1:35-45 said:In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there. 36 Simon and his companions searched for Him; 37 they found Him, and said to Him, “Everyone is looking for You.” 38 He said to them, “Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach there also; for that is what I came for.” 39 And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.
(The Mt and Lk versions omit any mention of "casting out the demons" at this point.)
The first 4 verses are not the miracle healing story. Vs 39 mentions "casting out" demons in "synagogues throughout all Galilee," which clearly implies that there were non-disciples present (though this text does not narrate a miracle event, but speaks only generally about "casting out" demons).
It's obvious that these ones healed were NON-disciples mainly. It clearly implies that Jesus is encountering a large number of people who are mostly NON-disciples, though maybe some disciples are also there.
It says "He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee . . ." Obviously most of those encountered, according to this text, were NON-disciples. Of course you can just assume the whole story is completely fiction and that no synagogues were entered and no people were encountered to be healed. But if we treat both these and the Joseph Smith miracle stories straightforwardly, believing the general description offered, the Jesus miracle stories obviously have large numbers of NON-disciples present, and non-disciple(s) being healed (or believed to be healed), whereas all the Joseph Smith stories are ones where those present were all JS disciples, including the victims healed.
40 And a leper came to Jesus, beseeching Him and . . .
Here again, it's clearly implied that this was NOT a Jesus disciple. Maybe he subsequently became one -- It doesn't say explicitly. The idea of these stories is that Jesus encounters a great number of new people he hadn't seen before, NON-disciples, who are healed by him. Whereas in the JS miracle stories, all the ones healed were already his disciples.
. . . falling on his knees before Him, and saying, “If You are willing, You can make me clean.” 41 Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and said to him, “I am willing; be cleansed.” 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed. 43 And He sternly warned him and immediately sent him away, 44 and He said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” 45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely and to spread the news around, to such an extent that . . .
This is one case where it says explicitly that it was the one healed who spread the news about the healing miracle, which isn't to deny that disciples also spread the word -- it's not necessary to insist that it had to be only one or the other reporting the story. And the one healed in this case almost certainly was a NON-disciple, unlike the JS stories, where no one was present other than disciples, including the one healed. So the JS stories did not spread as a result of NON-disciples who were present going out and telling others.
(Disciples: 3; onlookers: 0)
The only logic of your scoreboard is simply that we must totally dismiss the Jesus miracle accounts as false -- period! By starting with that premise, that the stories are totally false, you then proceed to your conclusion that only disciples transmitted the stories and everyone knowing of them were disciples only who fabricated the story.
But the proper premise is to accept the accounts as true except for the specific miracle act itself, which is set aside as doubtful -- for both the Jesus miracles in the gospels, and the 19th-century Joseph Smith miracle stories. It's reasonable to accept the accounts generally, i.e., as reasonably accurate reports of what generally happened, or what the general pattern was for these reported events.
This one fits the pattern of at least one non-disciple being present. The earlier crowds may be included, or excluded, as part of this miracle story. The general context shows that probably other non-disciples also were present, but in this case it's not clearly implied.
Maybe you should try taking some Imodium….(this Wall of Text to be continued)
If one compares reports of miracles from the so-called synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), one will find that, as one moves from the earlier to the later Gospels, some of the miracles become more exaggerated. Consider the following passage from Mark, the earliest Gospel:
That evening, at sundown, they brought to him all who were sick or possessed with demons. ... And he healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons. ... (1:32-34)
Now compare the same incident as reported by the two later Gospels, Matthew and Luke (who probably took the original account from Mark and amended it). Here is Matthew:
That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick. (8:16)And here is Luke:
Now when the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to him; and he laid his hands on every one of them and healed them. (4:40)
According to Mark, all were brought to Jesus and many were healed; according to Matthew, many were brought and all were healed; and according to Luke, all were brought and all were healed. The miracle keeps getting better all the time. As A. Robertson observes, “We are witnessing the progressive growth of a legend.”
Mark 9:14-29 said:When they came back to the disciples, they saw a large crowd around them, and some scribes arguing with them.
<snip>
25 And when Jesus saw that a crowd came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You dumb and deaf spirit, I command you, come out of him, and never enter him again." 26 And after crying out and convulsing him terribly, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse; so that most of them said, "He is dead." 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose. 28 When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, “Why could we not drive it out?” 29 And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”
The ending gives it away, and again a private conversation; another onlooker fail. (Disciples: 11; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 5)
Not really clear internally, but the beggar immediately became one of those corrupted followers influenced by the evil charisma. But I’ll still go for unknowable.
(Disciples: 11; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 6)
Mark 10:46-52 said:Then they came to Jericho. And as He was leaving Jericho with His disciples and a large crowd, a blind beggar named Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, was sitting by the road. 47 When he heard that it was Jesus the Nazarene, he began to cry out and say, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” 48 Many were sternly telling him to be quiet, but he kept crying out all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” 49 And Jesus stopped and said, “Call him here.” So they called the blind man, saying to him, “Take courage, stand up! He is calling for you.” 50 Throwing aside his cloak, he jumped up and came to Jesus. 51 And answering him, Jesus said, “What do you want Me to do for you?” And the blind man said to Him, “Rabboni, I want to regain my sight!” 52 And Jesus said to him, “Go; your faith has made you well.” Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.
Another private conversation; another onlooker fail.
(Disciples: 12; onlookers: 0; unknowable: 6)
Mark 11:20-22 said:As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. 21 Being reminded, Peter said to Him, “Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered.” 22 And Jesus answered saying to them, “Have faith in God.
So after a tour of the Jesus miracles in Mark, I came up with 11 [12] sagas that the internal evidences is most suggestive of a disciple passing the story forward and 6 sagas . . .
. . . where the internal evidence is pretty much lacking any guidance.
And the mystery onlookers racked up zero points.
I'd say your "internal evidence" is clearly lacking in support of your claim about the Jesus miracle stories coming from mystery "onlookers".
OUIJA board suggests another major goal post shift coming up....