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The Quick & Lazy way to the Easy Good Life
- Thread starter Ramaraksha
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Learner
Veteran Member
In this concept of reincarnation ; What were the previous lives of a communist leader, a dictator , a religious leader, a politician , and the much mentioned dictatorial "king"? It is not sensible if the concept means they become these by wanting to be top dog from previous lives.
You mentioned Christianity developed from earlier serving a king and master (forcefully) whereby the karma is to be overlording a great mass of people and not usually in a good-for-all way i.e. dictatorship.
Your gods then really created the "real life " of misery for many during a life time as history is read and is evident today. The notion of reincarnation is going back and forth between suffering one life then not suffering in another dependent on what he or she does continuously from previous lives.
Why do people become the victims of all sorts of atrocities from something they were in a previous life? What does one do to decide to become poor and starving ...beaten, raped or killed? Which is an eternal ongoing concept which MUST mean the design was made to have punishment ... eternally.
You mentioned Christianity developed from earlier serving a king and master (forcefully) whereby the karma is to be overlording a great mass of people and not usually in a good-for-all way i.e. dictatorship.
Your gods then really created the "real life " of misery for many during a life time as history is read and is evident today. The notion of reincarnation is going back and forth between suffering one life then not suffering in another dependent on what he or she does continuously from previous lives.
Why do people become the victims of all sorts of atrocities from something they were in a previous life? What does one do to decide to become poor and starving ...beaten, raped or killed? Which is an eternal ongoing concept which MUST mean the design was made to have punishment ... eternally.
sharon45
Veteran Member
One major problem with this is that Christianity is not merely about polishing shoes. It varies, yet true believers supposedly do earn their way into Heaven by following Jesus' teachings. See, as Luke 19:11-27 illustrates, the faithful ought to put this enlightenment to good use by not keeping it only to themselves hidden away, but to be a bright light in the darkness, for many more people to be saved.
Ramaraksha
Senior Member
You have the wrong concept of Reincarnation - that's the problem. If you did something in the past life and you think something bad is happening in this life is due to it, that is the wrong view - that is not Reincarnation or Karma. What you are describing is vengeance - some sort of magic being Accountant adding up your debits and credits and paying you back?
Honestly your views on justice are so backward - there is a difference between Justice and Vengeance - what you are advocating is Vengeance, not justice. An eye for an eye - I did something bad in the previous life, now i am paying for it? That is silly
Karma is nothing but Action - you didn't study, most probably you will fail the exam - that is Karma - As you sow, so you reap - you might have heard of those words, do they make sense? That is Karma
What Reincarnation and the Cartoon is saying is that don't think you can run away to some magic retirement home in the sky - Religions are just exploiting you with Heaven - understand why they say it is only if you believe. They know that they have no evidence and lots of people ask where is the evidence, so to shut out those who question, they say it will happen only if you believe & so end up with a core of fools chasing after Fools Gold
"What does one do to decide to become poor and starving ...beaten, raped or killed?" Good question - has your religion ever answered it? Do you have an answer? You think Hinduism teaches that something bad happened in the past life and now you are paying for it? That is the wrong view - again, it is Vengeance. You are familiar with Vengeance - it is the concept of Hell. You did something bad in life, your God will torture you for it? or let you go if you cry a few croc tears of remorse?
Hinduism does not do Vengeance - it does Justice. No one being punished or rewarded for past actions - as i said, that would be a magic being accountant in the sky
"You mentioned Christianity developed from earlier serving a king and master (forcefully)" OMG - you have to be blind not to see it - take a look at the terminology - Commandments, submit, beg, mercy, judge, wrath, punish, forgive, Fear - These are ALL Slave/Servant words. When was the last time you used those words while addressing your parents?
"Every knee shall bow"??? - when you go greet your parents at the airport, do you get down on your knees? or do you go hug them?
Ramaraksha
Senior Member
There is a problem with Earning your way, isn't there? In a corrupt country if you want anything done, you have to grease the palms. The people getting rich because of corruption hate honesty and ethics. They don't want people to earn a job or a contract because they have the best qualifications or the best product
That's the problem proselytizing religions like Christianity face - if all good people get to be with God, why convert? That is what Hindus have been saying all along - that is why we don't preach division and hate based on religion - no Hindu will ever cast you into hell because you are not Hindu. But Christians do it - lots of them. Lots of Christians think Jesus is the only way. You use a different name for God, you get hell! That doesn't say God is judging you based on your actions in life. You could have given your life trying to save a child from rape, but because you are an atheist, you get hell? The little child being raped was also the child of Atheists, so she gets hell as well? And the rapist because he is a believer gets heaven? But no one points out these sick ideas, no one!
The sad fact is that the ancients who came up with such ideas were not wrong - they lived in a different time and place. The rules were different then - they lived under Kings & most jobs or contracts went to those who had the right connections.
The King could do whatever he wanted - If a 100 people saw a criminal murder someone but the King said he can go free, he got to go free & if a honest man was ordered to be put to death by the king, that is what happened. You see the same idea being reflected in God's Forgiveness - God will forgive - the criminal just has to repent, nice God will forgive just as Kings did. And innocent people like Atheists and people of other religions dumped into Hell - just as the King did whatever he wanted
But we don't live in those days now - today to get a job or a promotion because of whether we kissed up to the boss or other is seen as an insult! Today, we are proud to say we EARN what we want
But when it comes to religion the same sad old ideas remain in place
sharon45
Veteran Member
But it is vengeance in some of your cartoons, because people are being obviously tricked by your own view.
sharon45
Veteran Member
Because that is the beginning to being considered a so-called good person.
Again, many have. You obviously just have not researched the subject enough.
Of course they were wrong.
It does not matter much, since it is done rampantly anyway.
Many earn it, and still many do not.
Learner
Veteran Member
Will have to get back to you Ramkins ... need to sleep early.
sharon45
Veteran Member
Ah, taking the quick and lazy way, I see.Will have to get back to you Ramkins ... need to sleep early.
Ramaraksha
Senior Member
So now it is not one's actions? it is now religion before one is considered a good person? Man, you guys have mastered the art of talking with a forked tongue.
Why oh God why is it so wrong for ALL Good people to be with God irrespective of religion? Why do you guys push your religion like this? You are serving religion, not God. The religious leaders are so happy, that is whom you are serving.
When we Hindus say One God we mean God for ALL - a parent - no parent will divide Her own children, no father would whip his son in hell, but a Master will - he will divide his slaves, whip and rape them. God is lowered down to a Master, your religion then becomes a Master/Slave religion
I will open a new topic - make you post where you have seen christians ever protesting against such ideas. First you agree with me and then you post that belonging to a religion is the start of being a good person, you contradict yourself there - but that is what i expect from a christian now - one word here, another a second later
Aaah, you keep getting lost in the story, in the example - yes many will do many crazy things - there may be christians who kill people, pedophiles but that is not what we are talking about - we talk about things in General, what most people would do or say
Ramaraksha
Senior Member
I can't write anything, can't draw anything - they are all tricks - yep you have the christian hate down - "all other religions and their people are all evil, satanic trying to mislead us, read only the Bible" lol
And we think North Koreans are brainwashed, lol
sharon45
Veteran Member
No, that comes afterward, hence the earlier reference I made to the beginning. They need to agree to take up their cross and follow Jesus.
Of course, that is only part of Christianity's trap.
Uh, there is no real skill to it; simply blatant lies and manipulations.
Because Christianity's god is ultimately a sick fool.
Uh, not me again. See above.
The idiot god of Christianity does.
Okay, this is the first time you have worded it to me asking for believing Christians. Now, that is a different story. The easiest would be examples of Christians having doubts.
Uh, no, I did not. I merely answered your question.
Not from me, of course, although you should prepare yourself for actual Christians.
Such is the unfair life. Some have it easy, others do not.
sharon45
Veteran Member
No, obviously they are not all tricks. The ones that I point out are.
Yes, I understand the Christian hate, but stop persistently confusing me with one of them. You talk about others not bothering to read anymore when you are clearly not following me well.
Ramaraksha
Senior Member
I only know you from your posts to me not your overall posts - so you are not christian? You are an Atheist? I am an Atheist Hindu to be fair. Some of your posts made me believe that you were Christian.
I want to go back to something -
Vengeance, hurting the criminal will be a lesson to others not to do what the criminal did. So my Jerry Falwell cartoon does the same thing - it is a warning to people not to run after fantasy lands in the sky. We know that there is no free lunch in life. If we want some we have to pay for it, nothing good comes in life without hard work, sacrifice and persistence. These are values that we teach our kids
Religions like Christianity preach the total opposite - one doesn't Earn heaven, one gets in because one has joined the "right" religion, polished the right shoes. Free lunches and dinners for eternity in heaven. Nothing to pay for everything is free, no need for hard work, sacrifice anymore - just sit back and enjoy the easy retired life!
What the ancient Hindus were saying is that THIS IS ALL THERE IS. So, if this is all there is people who want to run away to heaven might get their wish after all - they get to come back as pets and get their happy retirement home!
Does the above make sense?
I don't think I'd teach those values to my kids. My parents tried to do that to me, and by 12 I figured they were not wise people because they spent their lives sacrificing and working hard, largely due to ignorance and bad choices from being over-obedient to what their ignorant parents had taught them, and they were unhappy people raising their kids to be the same. They grew up in The Great Depression, so their work ethic is understandable. But, in my lifetime the depressed economy was over and done with... so what sense would it make to carry on the same values when an easier, lazier life was available? I'm an enthusiast of Epicurus' hedonism and a heavily taoistic
Dudeism. Simple in needs, rich in inner life -- by choice the opposite of the dreary, sacrificial, dutiful lives of my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents...I don't know Christianity well, having realized it's just more dreary moralistic dutifulness at about age 15, and healing the wounds from my short 1.5 year bout of that disease by my college years. I haven't sustained much interest. But still I don't recognize what you're saying as an accurate description. Christians prescribe a spiritual practice, and even if in some sects the forgiveness comes by grace and not works then still the expectation is your love of God will make you work to be the best Christian you can be. The rituals, moralisms, duties are life-long. So it's not a free lunch.
Well yeah, that's what retirement is. I think there's only one life on earth, but I do intend as full a retirement as possible from the burdens society tries to pile on me before I die. The Christians want an eternal retirement. They won't get it except by dying, after which all experience (and thus any "you") ends, but it's an understandable wish. The point of work is to not starve, to keep a roof over one's head, to make sure the kids get an education. Once those are no longer a concern, to go on working for them would be stupid.
No I don't believe that either. You strike me as an unreliable source of information on ancient Hinduism, and being a Hindu doesn't mean that can't be true. Moksha is a wish for liberation from the round of lives into the eternal bliss of union with Brahma. "You are that" means Atman and Brahman are one -- a realization that comes after seeing through the illusory nature of this world. Put simply, in Hinduism "this"... that you claim "is all there is" ... is illusion. Which means it cannot be all there is. There's something more than "the relative realm" we endure in our work-a-day lives: the ultimate reality, Brahman.
So Hinduism has a variety of heaven too. The major difference is that souls get to take the test over and over again before they attain it.
No, and it can never be made to make sense no matter how many times you repeat it. Your insistence that anyone should "get to" have whatever they want isn't evidenced in earthly reality. Too little evidence = no good reason to believe it. Just because you like the consequence, that it seems fair to people, doesn't make it either true or useful. The evidence is life is unfair and there's no justice in it except what humans strive for among themselves.
Don't conclude that people who critique your reincarnation idea don't understand your point and so need it repeated at them (in too many threads). The problem is that what you're saying is not well-reasoned. So consider being a good philosopher and doubt the truth of your ideas better.
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Ramaraksha
Senior Member
I don't think I'd teach those values to my kids. My parents tried to do that to me, and by 12 I figured they were not wise people because they spent their lives sacrificing and working hard, largely due to ignorance and bad choices from being over-obedient to what their ignorant parents had taught them, and they were unhappy people raising their kids to be the same. They grew up in The Great Depression, so their work ethic is understandable. But, in my lifetime the depressed economy was over and done with... so what sense would it make to carry on the same values when an easier, lazier life was available? I'm an enthusiast of Epicurus' hedonism and a heavily taoistic
Don't conclude that people who critique your reincarnation idea don't understand your point and so need it repeated at them (in too many threads). The problem is that what you're saying is not well-reasoned. So consider being a good philosopher and doubt the truth of your ideas better.
Last from first if they are addressed to you maybe you can say that, but since they are not, no need for you to respond. Saying my opinion is not well reasoned - well, that is your opinion, right? Your last words apply to you as well - ALL new ideas were hated at first - this is borne out by history - ALL new ideas, so you are not alone in not understanding these ideas
Your opinion of Moksha is what you heard elsewhere? Why did you accept it as the truth? Because it fits with what most other religions preach?
As for your first post - to me that is a horrible view - but you are entitled to your views - simple in needs yes then you get simple things. It is no different from a kid deciding getting an A is too hard - D is good enough for me and D is what you get. Same idea with coming back as pets - does that make sense now? You get to be who you are
Ancient Hindus were saying there is a steady progression - from bug to animal to human and beyond(Aham Brahmasmi) - Nietzsche read this and that is what he wrote - that we can aspire higher move on up to Super man. Many give up, life is too hard, the journey too hard - most quit and they had for heaven or what they think is heaven not realizing they are headed for a lower form of life
I want to move forward - I want to become God!(Moksha - Aham Brahmasmi) - that is how i understood these teachings - but between me and my goal stands the old enemy - pain and suffering
Please don't take these ideas literally - they are but ideas on how to lead one's life, that's all
sharon45
Veteran Member
I appreciate that, yet if you paid enough attention to my posts to you, you would have noticed me making fun of and bitterly criticizing Christianity and its god.
Correct on both counts. See, you can be right on occasion.
I was originally raised in the belief, but given that I did not like the god it brazenly described ever since I was a small child, this hardly made me one of the radiating faithful.
Right, which is why I called it a form a vengeance earlier. Surely not the worst, yet Falwell was still tricked, and his punishment does serve as a lesson to others, as you now say here also.
Not quite, but this is the common lesson we teach furure generations.
Yet again, I have told you that they do earn it in a number of ways.
No, doing as Jesus teaches and spreading it to as many as possible.
No, an eternity of worshipping the Christian god and doing everything at its pleasure by judging angels, naming post offices, etc.
See above.
sharon45
Veteran Member
No, not anywhere near true; especially when you can not possibly track down every new idea's origin.
Strive for an A, get a B...
The examples of overcoming the vast majority of pain and suffering are revealed by studying and learning from history and other people.
Ramaraksha
Senior Member
There are Tell's - you can say you are an Atheist - but from the above post it is quite clear you are not
First Jerry Falwell being tricked - you realize that it is my cartoon - the original idea that one comes back as an animal - you might have heard of it - came from ancient Hindus. This was thousands of years ago - long before any Falwell. People misunderstood what they said - they didn't realize that we come back as an animal because we want to - human life is tough - too painful - going down to an animal or bug life - things get easier - as you see the cat lives a pretty darn good life. That is what Falwell was after, most christians are after, the easy good life and religion just exploits that greed
"an eternity of worshipping the Christian god and doing everything at its pleasure by judging angels, naming post offices, etc" a mind-boggling post - worshipping is work now? - something these people do an hour a week they are going to do all the time? Really? So, God sits like a king on his throne and millions of people surround him and tell him what a great guy he is? And he loves it? That is why he created humans? Do you not see the image of a medieval king surrounded by courtiers praising him? It is blatantly obvious where their ideas of God came from, & yet you refuse to see it.
I am sorry i trying to see how an educated, intelligent person could write these words but i can't seem, but a religious person? yes i can see that
judging angles? naming post offices???? what? What exactly is being judged? how well you pray and dance?
"Yet again, I have told you that they do earn it in a number of ways" again here you show your bias - i have been told more than once that works don't matter, only religion does. I have not yet heard of any christian saying heaven is full of non-christians. When you apply for a job down here on earth - they consider your works, your qualifications - your religion, ethnicity, sex - all that does not matter. When did any christian ever say that? Heaven then should be full of people of all religions - can you give me an example of even one christian leader saying that? If religion does not matter, then why proselytize? Why use threats of hell if one doesn't covert? Why say Jesus is the only way?
Looks to me you are Christian.
I see it the way you support christian ideas and vehemently oppose non-christian ideas. Compared to the concept of Hell, Reincarnation as a cat is much less violent - in fact Jerry Falwell gets a good life - but you supported Hell - it is a lesson to others not to do this whereas Reincarnation suddenly did not meet that criteria - why isn't it also a lesson not to expect free lunches?
The child losing his toy - you know that if it was your kid that lost his toy - some other kid broke it - whether the parents of that other kid punish him or bring your kid a new toy is none of your business - what matters to you is the happiness of your kid and you would go buy him another one - that is what Reincarnation stresses - that the victim must be made whole & yet since it is a non-christian idea, you oppose it
Again, not seeing an Atheist here
sharon45
Veteran Member
You should know that I have been studying tells since I was a small child; meaning I am very good at it. I am so confident in my ability, that I presented you with lots of good ideas and wisdom, knowing full well that you are going to largely ignore them, and here is yet another signal of that.
But I am not concerned with the Hindus' exact concept, I am commenting on your interpretation.
And I keep telling you, (not that other type of tell), that Falwell does not get what he wants, he was tricked because he gets to realize it; which is not justice, but a form of vengeance.
Now you belittle work. It sure is not lying on the beach with a drink. You do understand that work can also be enjoyable, right?
Yes, along with anything else their lardship wants.
Oh, I already got the symbolism of this decades ago. It's nothing new.
That is taken out of the NT.
Now, that is only a little joke again.
You would have to ask the imbecile Jesus that one, but I already know that he can not give you a logical answer.
Ah, except that you are assuming Christianity should be rational; it blatantly is not. It is rife with mistakes and contradictions.
With the now more than 30,000 different sects in the religion, I would not be too surprised if at least one thought along this idea.
Because of the contradictions. Jesus does not even follow his own teachings very well. Try to imagine a credible book with such overt disregard for its own consistency. The Bible.
No, it looks like you have firmly stepped into a pretty obvious tell here.
Where am I doing anything of the sort?
Uh, yeah, but that is far beside the point you were trying to make with these threads.
Again, where do you see me supporting Hell?
I already told you that both contain warnings.
Yet again, I disgree with your findings that it is justice; my judging is not affected by where the idea originated from.