Are we pushing too hard and fast?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I more or less wouldn't doubt it and putting aside in biblical sense that says; this situation is to be expected and more so. It does at least give concern and scrutiny to criticize those preaching who still remain financially successful for wealths sake or other seperate agenda rather than the goals of the gospel of Christ.

These supposed goals and gospel that practically every Christian views differently.

If there IS a single religion it must be exactly that, namely, searching for a goal in all the magic stories.

And people are constantly inventing new magic stories that are twists on older magic stories. Fascinating stuff, and a great observation on the human condition.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

If think that the push back stems from the fact that it's more socially acceptable to criticize religion and its leaders no longer enjoy the privilege and relative immunity from questioning that they used to have. They feel a bit cornered and see the tide of history turning against them for the first time basically ever.

The pushback is the result of serious body blows against them and an indication that the current attitudes and actions are the correct ones. They know that their power and influence are going to diminish more and more and they have a limited time to be able to exert that influence. They cannot slowly and calmly work towards their goals.

That double standard that religion has enjoyed for millenia is edging closer and closer to the shitter as people become more educated and have access to greater knowledge. Church attendances are proof of same.

But I know people who still go talk to their favorite religious salesman when they have an issue.

 

[Learner]

These supposed goals and gospel that practically every Christian views differently.

Isn't that true then for everyone ... including non Christians ... having views and opinions of the gospels?

 

[sharon45]

These supposed goals and gospel that practically every Christian views differently.

Isn't that true then for everyone ... including non Christians ... having views and opinions of the gospels?

Unbelievers are purely free to harbor their own views, since the religion is ultimately a lie anyway. Yet I have heard that there are at least 20,000 distinct sects of Christianity. Hardly a religion of unity. While Jesus and Paul already taught a conflicting message with each other, they both surely had harsh words to say for anyone else spreading a different version.

 

[Learner]

Unbelievers are purely free to harbor their own views, since the religion is ultimately a lie anyway.

I won't argue against your entitlement I'll take it as a view in any case.

Yet I have heard that there are at least 20,000 distinct sects of Christianity. Hardly a religion of unity. While Jesus and Paul already taught a conflicting message with each other, they both surely had harsh words to say for anyone else spreading a different version.

Last time I checked it was 30,000 plus. Yes it does sound like a "divide an conquer" of a faith if you were to see it as a non unity religion as well as Jesus having enemies and those who hated Him then and now. Not meaning atheists in general since they don't believe of Jesus in this regard.

I heard a sermon a few weeks ago from what I thought imo an amazing preacher about uniting the various denominations by a common denominator. That is the teachings of Jesus "only" nothing else which adds to the phrases like " Only through Christ". This is different of course as to some Christians having said and being concerned about ... that there are ideas promoting the future merging of all various other faiths into one.

A safe guard perhaps ..should Various Christians be at a loss amongst themselves.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[sharon45]

I won't argue against your entitlement I'll take it as a view in any case.

You need not ever bother, since there is no credible defense.

A safe guard perhaps ..should Various Christians be at a loss amongst themselves.

Ha, it is simply par for the sand foundation of that extremely narrow course to have Christians at a loss.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And he hanged in crucified delight. As I have said many times before, to dare love a ridiculous monstrosity.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I won't argue against your entitlement I'll take it as a view in any case.

Yet I have heard that there are at least 20,000 distinct sects of Christianity. Hardly a religion of unity. While Jesus and Paul already taught a conflicting message with each other, they both surely had harsh words to say for anyone else spreading a different version.

Last time I checked it was 30,000 plus. Yes it does sound like a "divide an conquer" of a faith if you were to see it as a non unity religion as well as Jesus having enemies and those who hated Him then and now. Not meaning atheists in general since they don't believe of Jesus in this regard.

I heard a sermon a few weeks ago from what I thought imo an amazing preacher about uniting the various denominations by a common denominator. That is the teachings of Jesus "only" nothing else which adds to the phrases like " Only through Christ". This is different of course as to some Christians having said and being concerned about ... that there are ideas promoting the future merging of all various other faiths into one.

A safe guard perhaps ..should Various Christians be at a loss amongst themselves.

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The canonical gospel protagonist is on record saying that we're all gods. So he's still saying love yourself and those around you.

 

[LordKiran]

I think people wanting to be their own man is out of fashion. The new thing is wanting to belong, and have a strong and distinct group identity. Well... atheism is completely useless for this, as it's a non-identity.

That's a shame from where I sit. It's the one thing I would have liked to remain from my parent's generation. I find it preferable that people be the heroes of their own story rather than just trying to belong in someone else's but then again I am a massive cynic over such things so I don't know...

I've got old numbers. Turns out the last big study that could catch this was 2001. I guess we'll just have to wait to know for sure. The studies we've had since there are more binary, (rather than focusing on what people actually believe) they focus on what people identify as.

Turns out that Islam is the fastest growing religion today. But there's problems with this. Most of the new converts are in countries where the gathering of statistics is unreliable. And since Islam in many countries are a force in politics, it's doubly unreliable numbers. Islam is one of those religions where a lot of them identify as being Muslims even when being an out-of-the-closet atheist. Judaism is another religion where "believers" are fine about identifying as Jews while not giving a hoot about any of the religious stuff and being aggressively and militantly atheist.

We just don't know.

You see this same attitude in far right ideologues. Identifying with the cultural and social trappings of christianity, which sounds about right to be honest. Christianity has long since lost any lasting moral authority in people's lives. As much as I'd like to see Bhuddist thought dominate our spiritual conversations for at least a while, I think we'll see Christianity eventually be reborn as a cultural institution.

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's a shame from where I sit. It's the one thing I would have liked to remain from my parent's generation. I find it preferable that people be the heroes of their own story rather than just trying to belong in someone else's but then again I am a massive cynic over such things so I don't know...

I think's it's Hegelian dialectics. The post-war generations were massively shaped by an identity opposite of Nazi Germany. Whatever Nazi Germany was for, the post-war west was against. Because mentally, that meant that they could feel that people like them won the war. People like winning things.

A little analysis shows that the collectivist trend that brought us Nazism was strong all over the western world. Ku Klux Klan had their biggest numbers since forever in USA. Which in turn was a reaction to 19'th century liberalism, coupled with (faulty) ideas of social Darwinism. England already had their horrendously racist empire, which was ,sort of, a similar thing.

But looking back in history humans had never been just individuals. They'd always been part of some group or another. I think it's the natural state for humans. What's different this time around is that this time we get to chose our collectives freely. A parent being a member doesn't guarantee that we will be.

I've got old numbers. Turns out the last big study that could catch this was 2001. I guess we'll just have to wait to know for sure. The studies we've had since there are more binary, (rather than focusing on what people actually believe) they focus on what people identify as.

Turns out that Islam is the fastest growing religion today. But there's problems with this. Most of the new converts are in countries where the gathering of statistics is unreliable. And since Islam in many countries are a force in politics, it's doubly unreliable numbers. Islam is one of those religions where a lot of them identify as being Muslims even when being an out-of-the-closet atheist. Judaism is another religion where "believers" are fine about identifying as Jews while not giving a hoot about any of the religious stuff and being aggressively and militantly atheist.

We just don't know.

You see this same attitude in far right ideologues. Identifying with the cultural and social trappings of christianity, which sounds about right to be honest. Christianity has long since lost any lasting moral authority in people's lives. As much as I'd like to see Bhuddist thought dominate our spiritual conversations for at least a while, I think we'll see Christianity eventually be reborn as a cultural institution.

I both agree and don't. Those that reach for the old collective identities are reactionaries trying to cling onto a dead paradigm. There were plenty of proponents of mercantilism well into the 20'th century. You know.... people who just don't get it. The far right is all be made up of idiots refusing to accept reality. If they aren't already these people will over time migrate to the lower classes. They'll stick around for centuries probably. But won't dominate much. And increasingly become impoverished and bitter. While the rest of us switch flexibly and dynamically between groups, identities and grow our networks enriching ourselves through our networks.

The story of Julian (the Apostate) is a warning fable. He was a brilliant and capable ruler. Yet, failed because he clung to a dead paradigm (Paganism). And all his reforms failed.

 

[Learner]

You need not ever bother, since there is no credible defense.

Credible defense that my version or opinion V your opinion of the biblical text? Or rather I claim there is a God and you say there can be NO such thing?

And he hanged in crucified delight. As I have said many times before, to dare love a ridiculous monstrosity.

No one of course really does that ... unless ... they were coming back!

 

[DrZoidberg]

Credible defense that my version or opinion V your opinion of the biblical text? Or rather I claim there is a God and you say there can be NO such thing?

Christians have had 2000 years now and still aren't able to back it up. Leap of faith... lol. Ie believing something even when you know you shouldn't.

Here's what I believe. I believe that the people who wrote the Bible understood God was just a metaphor. Why do I believe that? Because those who wrote it were literate. That means that they must have belonged to a tiny minority of Jewish nobles who were well educated, knew Greek philosophy, knew Jewish theology, knew the works of Philo of Alexandria and were well read in general. They were NOT ignorant shepherds. They would have known that the Christian concept of God is the Socratic "unmoved mover". They would have known it was a paradox, ie could not be literally true. Judaism also has a tradition of questioning the Torah. These christian nobles would have attended the Yeshiva. They would have been trained in NOT taking things in the Torah literally. They would have been taught to think of God as both a metaphor and as real. It was people like this that wrote the earliest Bibles. Because it couldn't have been anyone else.

All this makes me question whether well educated Jewish theologians would knowingly make stupid mistakes (= writing the Bible as literal).

 

[Lion IRC]

I more or less wouldn't doubt it and putting aside in biblical sense that says; this situation is to be expected and more so. It does at least give concern and scrutiny to criticize those preaching who still remain financially successful for wealths sake or other seperate agenda rather than the goals of the gospel of Christ.

These supposed goals and gospel that practically every Christian views differently.

"...practically every Christian"?

No lol
Do yourself a favor and check out the meaning of word orthodox

Or better still, name just one doctrinal issue on which Learner and me disagree

...coz you said EVERY Christian has different views

 

[sharon45]

Credible defense that my version or opinion V your opinion of the biblical text? Or rather I claim there is a God and you say there can be NO such thing?

Defense against this supposed entitlement of mine which you are taking as a view. And I have not said that there is no god, because there might be; just no Christian version of a god.

And he hanged in crucified delight. As I have said many times before, to dare love a ridiculous monstrosity.

No one of course really does that ... unless ... they were coming back!

Hardly. It is because the moronic character remains purely fiction.

 

[sharon45]

These supposed goals and gospel that practically every Christian views differently.

"...practically every Christian"?

No lol
Do yourself a favor and check out the meaning of word orthodox

Or better still, name just one doctrinal issue on which Learner and me disagree

...coz you said EVERY Christian has different views

No, you check out what you quoted from me above. I obviously said "practically every Christian." And as far as playing callow games between Christians, uh, thanks, but you two can have all of the fun you want on your own.

 

[sharon45]

Credible defense that my version or opinion V your opinion of the biblical text? Or rather I claim there is a God and you say there can be NO such thing?

this makes me question whether well educated Jewish theologians would knowingly make stupid mistakes (= writing the Bible as literal).

They have many different ways of understanding the Bible, which is already a very stupid mistake.

 

[Lion IRC]

"...practically every Christian"?

No lol
Do yourself a favor and check out the meaning of word orthodox

Or better still, name just one doctrinal issue on which Learner and me disagree

...coz you said EVERY Christian has different views

No, you check out what you quoted from me above. I obviously said "practically every Christian." And as far as playing callow games between Christians, uh, thanks, but you two can have all of the fun you want on your own.

It's not a game. Was your line about practically EVERY Christian just thoughtless banter?

Can't you even think of just ONE doctrinal issue?

 

[sharon45]

No, you check out what you quoted from me above. I obviously said "practically every Christian." And as far as playing callow games between Christians, uh, thanks, but you two can have all of the fun you want on your own.

It's not a game. Was your line about practically EVERY Christian just thoughtless banter?

Can't you even think of just ONE doctrinal issue?

After reading and believing in what Jesus spews, you have the stale crust to supposedly charge someone else with thoughtless banter? Yet another reason why it really is a game.

 

[Lion IRC]

Hmmm
That's what I expected

 

[sharon45]

Hmmm
That's what I expected

And how, oh, because I already said this days ago. Consistency is a real pain to those who live in the contradiction.

 

[DrZoidberg]

this makes me question whether well educated Jewish theologians would knowingly make stupid mistakes (= writing the Bible as literal).

They have many different ways of understanding the Bible, which is already a very stupid mistake.

Well... the Bible is a collection of books written by a variety of authors, writing for different reasons, pushing different agendas. They are also leaving out loads of information that their contemporary readers would have taken for granted. Context which we need to have today, to make sense of it.

I think there's many different ways to interpret the Bible because I think that the Christianity in the Bible is several distinct religions. I recommend Bart Ehrman's book, "Lost Christianities". It's really good. There probably never was any single original Christianity, or any single true interpretation. And just like any movement it can take a long time before they've figured out what they want to be. I think the Bible contains the evolution of a religion.