Venezuela: la mierda hits el ventilador

[Crazy Eddie]

You mean defend themselves from foreign aggression.

You mean the south defending themselves from northern aggression right?

Nope. As far as the Vietnamese were concerned, North and South Vietnam were the same country and it was only a French decree that nobody agreed with that said otherwise (that and the U.S. puppet dictators in the south). Strictly speaking, the fighting in Vietnam was a civil war that France and then the United States became involved with by supporting one side while the Chinese and the Soviets supported the other.

 

[untermensche]

You mean defend themselves from foreign aggression.

You mean the south defending themselves from northern aggression right?

The South?

The South was for the North, not the US.

That is why the US bombed South Vietnam into the stone age.

The despotic leaders of the South were the only ones that wanted the US there.

 

[skepticalbip]

You mean the south defending themselves from northern aggression right?

Nope. As far as the Vietnamese were concerned, North and South Vietnam were the same country and it was only a French decree that nobody agreed with that said otherwise (that and the U.S. puppet dictators in the south). Strictly speaking, the fighting in Vietnam was a civil war that France and then the United States became involved with by supporting one side while the Chinese and the Soviets supported the other.

You are right that those in the North and South thought it was one country. What the war was about was what kind of government should control that government. When the country was divided, millions fled to the south because they didn't want to live in a communist country under Uncle Ho. Uncle Ho thought he should be the leader of all so sent his army south to make it so.

 

[untermensche]

Nope. As far as the Vietnamese were concerned, North and South Vietnam were the same country and it was only a French decree that nobody agreed with that said otherwise (that and the U.S. puppet dictators in the south). Strictly speaking, the fighting in Vietnam was a civil war that France and then the United States became involved with by supporting one side while the Chinese and the Soviets supported the other.

You are right that those in the North and South thought it was one country. What the war was about was what kind of government should control that government. When the country was divided, millions fled to the south because they didn't want to live in a communist country under Uncle Ho.

No.

Millions fled the insane US bombing and efforts to force the South into compliance.

The US did not have much willing support in the South. Mostly just people trying to survive the insane violence from across the ocean.

 

[skepticalbip]

You are right that those in the North and South thought it was one country. What the war was about was what kind of government should control that government. When the country was divided, millions fled to the south because they didn't want to live in a communist country under Uncle Ho.

No.

Millions fled the insane US bombing and efforts to force the South into compliance.

The US did not have much willing support in the South. Mostly just people trying to survive the insane violence from across the ocean.

It is amazing how you just make up your own history, ignoring reality.

Millions, who were able to. fled Vietnam when the US left by any means available, even taking river boats and trying to navigate the open ocean where an untold number died. For these people the takeover by the NVA was worse than the war they stayed through and lived through. While the US was there, they could have left by commercial airline or ship.

 

[untermensche]

No.

Millions fled the insane US bombing and efforts to force the South into compliance.

The US did not have much willing support in the South. Mostly just people trying to survive the insane violence from across the ocean.

It is amazing how you just make up your own history, ignoring reality.

Millions, who were able to. fled Vietnam when the US left by any means available, even taking river boats and trying to navigate the open ocean where an untold number died. For these people the takeover by the NVA was worse than the war they stayed through and lived through. While the US was there, they could have left by commercial airline or ship.

You mean the people who would be considered traitors fled the approaching army they opposed merely to survive?

Yes, when huge crimes like the US invasion of South Vietnam happen, many many people suffer.

 

[skepticalbip]

It is amazing how you just make up your own history, ignoring reality.

Millions, who were able to. fled Vietnam when the US left by any means available, even taking river boats and trying to navigate the open ocean where an untold number died. For these people the takeover by the NVA was worse than the war they stayed through and lived through. While the US was there, they could have left by commercial airline or ship.

You mean the people who would be considered traitors fled the approaching army they opposed merely to survive?

Exactly. Millions and millions who didn't want communist in charge of their country would be considered as traitors by those communists who forcefully took control. Millions escaped by boat, many of those who couldn't escape were put in "re-education camps where many died.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But there is a difference going after the supply chain, and the places for the enemy to fight then just saying, "I'm going to kill someone for the fun of it" Did people at the same time criticize the NLF and NVA for using neutral countries and civilians to shield themselves?

You mean defend themselves from foreign aggression.

You realize North Vietnam attacked South Vietnam? The NVA wasn't the victim of foreign aggression!

 

[untermensche]

You mean the people who would be considered traitors fled the approaching army they opposed merely to survive?

Exactly. Millions and millions who didn't want communist in charge of their country would be considered as traitors by those communists who forcefully took control. Millions escaped by boat, many of those who couldn't escape were put in "re-education camps where many died.

It is a lie to say these people wanted the US there.

They got caught up in a huge crime that was far bigger than them and then were abandoned by the criminal.

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You mean defend themselves from foreign aggression.

You realize North Vietnam attacked South Vietnam? The NVA wasn't the victim of foreign aggression!

No.

The US attacked South Vietnam to stop it from uniting with the North like it wanted to.

The US turned South Vietnam into a wasteland. North Vietnam did not.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are right that those in the North and South thought it was one country. What the war was about was what kind of government should control that government. When the country was divided, millions fled to the south because they didn't want to live in a communist country under Uncle Ho.

No.

Millions fled the insane US bombing and efforts to force the South into compliance.

The US did not have much willing support in the South. Mostly just people trying to survive the insane violence from across the ocean.

They were afraid of NV terrorists.

For a pretty atrocious example: We provided smallpox vaccinations. The NV came along and cut off arms that bore the scar of a smallpox vaccination. (The older shots left a small coin-sized ring around the injection site. While subtle it certainly can be seen.) That's the sort of behavior you're defending.

 

[skepticalbip]

Exactly. Millions and millions who didn't want communist in charge of their country would be considered as traitors by those communists who forcefully took control. Millions escaped by boat, many of those who couldn't escape were put in "re-education camps where many died.

It is a lie to say these people wanted the US there.

They didn't really want the U.S. there but welcomed the U.S. as the only way they could hope to avoid being overrun by the NVA which was their greatest fear. What the South wanted was peace and a non-communist government but Uncle Ho was determined to unite Viet Nam under his communist government so sent his army south to kill anyone who disagreed.

 

[untermensche]

No.

Millions fled the insane US bombing and efforts to force the South into compliance.

The US did not have much willing support in the South. Mostly just people trying to survive the insane violence from across the ocean.

They were afraid of NV terrorists.

Those giving aid and support to the enemy probably were.

But the people supported the North.

That was the whole problem.

The South wanted to unite with the North. That is why the US attacked the South and went on a murderous rampage.

In the South against people living in the South.

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It is a lie to say these people wanted the US there.

They didn't really want the U.S. there but welcomed the U.S. as the only way they could hope to avoid being overrun by the NVA which was their greatest fear. What the South wanted was peace and a non-communist government but Uncle Ho was determined to unite Viet Nam under his communist government so sent his army south to kill anyone who disagreed.

No they did not welcome the US.

They cursed the day they ever trusted the US.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Do you take your comedy show on the road unter? JK

So let's see. The country was split in 54. And I thought skepticalbip you were actually referring to the million North Vietnamese people who migrated from the North to the south in the short period afterward, prior to any fightining. The US didn't do any buildup until 63 and the marines landed at danang in 65. So almost ten years without major US presence and the country that supposedly wanted to unite didn't. And for two years after the US left in 73, the south fought the north. I'm very confused how such a strong desire in the south for unification couldn't do it until enough NVA helped the south in 75. Or maybe, the southern units that wanted unification were very small and only strengthened by the north over time was there any push for unification.

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You mean the south defending themselves from northern aggression right?

Nope. As far as the Vietnamese were concerned, North and South Vietnam were the same country and it was only a French decree that nobody agreed with that said otherwise (that and the U.S. puppet dictators in the south). Strictly speaking, the fighting in Vietnam was a civil war that France and then the United States became involved with by supporting one side while the Chinese and the Soviets supported the other.

Yes it was a civil with the proxies in charge. But the support in the south for it wasn't very strong without the influence of the north and the backing of the Chinese and the Soviets. If the north had stayed out of it, the south would have been okay.

 

[coloradoatheist]

But there is a difference going after the supply chain, and the places for the enemy to fight then just saying, "I'm going to kill someone for the fun of it"

Now you're moving the goalposts. YES, the United States killed Vietnamese citizens indiscriminately. They clearly had some kind of strategic objective in doing so; nobody ever said they did it just for fun. They believed that destroying the NVA and their Vietcong supporters would break their resolve and bring the war to a swift end; in this sense, they were practicing TOTAL WAR and anyone even peripherally related to the war effort was a target.

Did people at the same time criticize the NLF and NVA for using neutral countries and civilians to shield themselves?

No, because that's not what happened. AT ALL. The civilians being targeted were civilians who were openly supporting the NVA, either politically or materially, or just by virtue of their failing to support the south. They weren't "shielding" themselves with the civilians, they WERE the civilians.

So fighting the NVA and Vietcong who were fighting you is wrong? If the US had gone through with total war and actually gone after the north instead of a defensive front, they would have had a chance. Theough they were worried about Chinese involvement.

As a combatant in a fight, there is a duty to protect the civilians and part of that is by wearing a uniform and identifying yourself as apart from a civilian. And in the code, a civilian who does help intentionally is accorded any protection by default.

 

[skepticalbip]

Do you take your comedy show on the road unter? JK

So let's see. The country was split in 54. And I thought skepticalbip you were actually referring to the million North Vietnamese people who migrated from the North to the south in the short period afterward, prior to any fightining. The US didn't do any buildup until 63 and the marines landed at danang in 65. So almost ten years without major US presence and the country that supposedly wanted to unite didn't.

Exactly, there was mass migration in 54 by those who didn't want to live under a communist government. They did think of Viet Nam as one country but a divided country. They wanted the country united under a non-communist government but preferred the divided country to a united country under Uncle Ho. There was close ten years of war with Uncle Ho trying to take total control before Kennedy sent in "advisers" to help the South defend themselves. Johnson inherited the situation and escalated it as the North escalated their efforts.

And for two years after the US left in 73, the south fought the north. I'm very confused how such a strong desire in the south for unification couldn't do it until enough NVA helped the south in 75. Or maybe, the southern units that wanted unification were very small and only strengthened by the north over time was there any push for unification.

Your confusion seems to be which form of government the people of the South wanted. They still didn't want to be under a communist government so continued to fight after the US left until they were defeated. If they were given the option of the North joining them under a non-communist government then they would have jumped at it.

ETA:
It is similar to the situation in Korea except that the US is still in South Korea to help protect the South. Both North and South Koreans dream of reunification. However, the South does not want to live under the Kims and communism and the Kims only see reunification with communism and the Kims in charge.

 

[untermensche]

...Your confusion seems to be which form of government the people of the South wanted. They still didn't want to be under a communist government so continued to fight after the US left until they were defeated. If they were given the option of the North joining them under a non-communist government then they would have jumped at it...

The reason the US invaded South Vietnam and began rounding up and killing South Vietnamese was because the people in the South sided with the North.

They did not side with the puppet government controlled by a foreign power.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The support in the south for the unification was a cladestine terrorist organization. They didn't have support beyond much of being killed if they didn't cooperate.

 

[untermensche]

The support in the south for the unification was a cladestine terrorist organization. They didn't have support beyond much of being killed if they didn't cooperate.

That was the US propaganda.

The reason the US killed and tortured so many South Vietnamese was because the US was trying to re-establish imperial control through a puppet government and the South Vietnamese wanted no part of it.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The support in the south for the unification was a cladestine terrorist organization. They didn't have support beyond much of being killed if they didn't cooperate.

That was the US propaganda.

The reason the US killed and tortured so many South Vietnamese was because the US was trying to re-establish imperial control through a puppet government and the South Vietnamese wanted no part of it.

Haha. No, they were fighting the combination of the Viet Cong and NVA. It was the Viet Cong who operated clandestinally. They did it through assassinations and controlling villages through terror. If they were as popular as you say, did they knowing go about identifying themselves?

 

[untermensche]

That was the US propaganda.

The reason the US killed and tortured so many South Vietnamese was because the US was trying to re-establish imperial control through a puppet government and the South Vietnamese wanted no part of it.

Haha. No, they were fighting the combination of the Viet Cong and NVA. It was the Viet Cong who operated clandestinally. They did it through assassinations and controlling villages through terror. If they were as popular as you say, did they knowing go about identifying themselves?

I assure you all those South Vietnamese the US killed and tortured were not laughing.

The US was a foreign aggressor trying to maintain an illegitimate government.

To support the US in this is to have no moral compass.

That's why people with moral compasses like Chomsky opposed it.