Do

[DBT]

Ultimately there is no separation between the state of the brain and the state of self. These being one and the same. Whatever you think you are doing, it is the brain that is generating that experience of you distinguishing yourself from the brain. Brains form self identity, learn language and experience the world as someone called 'Fast' who posts on TFT.

What I'm saying is found in your own words. You said the brain generates experience and brains form self identity.

Do brains generate brains? No. You're not saying that. They generate the same thing, a brain? Again, no. You said brains generate something else. There is something else (other than the brain) that the brain generates. What? You said experience. Okay, so what's the problem? I'm not denying the necessary condition of the brain. I agree, no brain, then no experience. But you, you want, you want to deny distinction. It's not called experience surgery; it's called brain surgery, and if you operated on the brain, you could affect that which it generates, but it's that which it (it) generates.

Ah, but what brains generate is not separate from the brain despite the apparent differences in the quality of the things being generated (sight, sound, etc). The ability to experience is built into the very fabric and architecture of a brain, it's evolved role and purpose being to experience the world and self, to respond to the world through the means of a conscious self.

 

[ryan]

What I'm saying is found in your own words. You said the brain generates experience and brains form self identity.

Do brains generate brains? No. You're not saying that. They generate the same thing, a brain? Again, no. You said brains generate something else. There is something else (other than the brain) that the brain generates. What? You said experience. Okay, so what's the problem? I'm not denying the necessary condition of the brain. I agree, no brain, then no experience. But you, you want, you want to deny distinction. It's not called experience surgery; it's called brain surgery, and if you operated on the brain, you could affect that which it generates, but it's that which it (it) generates.

Ah, but what brains generate is not separate from the brain despite the apparent differences in the quality of the things being generated (sight, sound, etc). The ability to experience is built into the very fabric and architecture of a brain, it's evolved role and purpose being to experience the world and self, to respond to the world through the means of a conscious self.

I think what fast is saying is that while the brain generates experiences there still needs to be a brain to function too. As the brain generates experiences, the brain continues to function biologically too. It's at least property dualism with only a one-way causality to the mental. Although I still think that we can't rule out free will until we understand what mechanism is behind QM if any.

 

[DBT]

Ah, but what brains generate is not separate from the brain despite the apparent differences in the quality of the things being generated (sight, sound, etc). The ability to experience is built into the very fabric and architecture of a brain, it's evolved role and purpose being to experience the world and self, to respond to the world through the means of a conscious self.

I think what fast is saying is that while the brain generates experiences there still needs to be a brain to function too. As the brain generates experiences, the brain continues to function biologically too. It's at least property dualism with only a one-way causality to the mental. Although I still think that we can't rule out free will until we understand what mechanism is behind QM if any.

Regulating biological functions and forming an experience of the world and self is just a part and parcel of brain function. Free will is a poorly defined term that can be ruled out with the simple fact that brain state equals mental ability. If the brain is damaged, decision making ability disintegrates to the degree of brain damage and the ability of neuronal plasticity to rewire and re-route the necessary functions.

Brain state and condition equals decisions made and actions taken, this is true regardless of possible quantum processing, higher dimension space or whatever else....free will implies autonomy from brain condition, but there is no evidence for it. As a concept, it's a dead end.

 

[ryan]

I think what fast is saying is that while the brain generates experiences there still needs to be a brain to function too. As the brain generates experiences, the brain continues to function biologically too. It's at least property dualism with only a one-way causality to the mental. Although I still think that we can't rule out free will until we understand what mechanism is behind QM if any.

Regulating biological functions and forming an experience of the world and self is just a part and parcel of brain function. Free will is a poorly defined term that can be ruled out with the simple fact that brain state equals mental ability. If the brain is damaged, decision making ability disintegrates to the degree of brain damage and the ability of neuronal plasticity to rewire and re-route the necessary functions.

Brain state and condition equals decisions made and actions taken, this is true regardless of possible quantum processing, higher dimension space or whatever else....free will implies autonomy from brain condition, but there is no evidence for it. As a concept, it's a dead end.

Quantum processing means that a brain does not necessarily make decisions based on prior brain states/condition. If QM processing is true, 2 identical brains may make different decisions in identical environments.

 

[DBT]

Regulating biological functions and forming an experience of the world and self is just a part and parcel of brain function. Free will is a poorly defined term that can be ruled out with the simple fact that brain state equals mental ability. If the brain is damaged, decision making ability disintegrates to the degree of brain damage and the ability of neuronal plasticity to rewire and re-route the necessary functions.

Brain state and condition equals decisions made and actions taken, this is true regardless of possible quantum processing, higher dimension space or whatever else....free will implies autonomy from brain condition, but there is no evidence for it. As a concept, it's a dead end.

Quantum processing means that a brain does not necessarily make decisions based on prior brain states/condition. If QM processing is true, 2 identical brains may make different decisions in identical environments.

Then you are referring not to decisions but random or unrelated response. A decision is related to the desire, issue, problem or challenge at hand. It is not random.

Even if you consider that quantum states may alter the decision making process of weighing options that offer a cost to benefit ratio, this is not free will because the change brought about by quantum fluctuations or probabilistic outcomes is not open to conscious choice, it is something that acts upon the system that's not subject to will or control, hence not an example of free will.

 

[ryan]

Quantum processing means that a brain does not necessarily make decisions based on prior brain states/condition. If QM processing is true, 2 identical brains may make different decisions in identical environments.

Then you are referring not to decisions but random or unrelated response. A decision is related to the desire, issue, problem or challenge at hand. It is not random.

I agree that issues, problems and challenges help dictate the decision making process, but they may not be the only factors. But desire, that is a perfect candidate for free will.

Even if you consider that quantum states may alter the decision making process of weighing options that offer a cost to benefit ratio, this is not free will because the change brought about by quantum fluctuations or probabilistic outcomes is not open to conscious choice, it is something that acts upon the system that's not subject to will or control, hence not an example of free will.

The consciousness is somehow an integration of physical brain states. I am not just talking about integrating, say, carbon atoms to make a diamond. I really do mean integration in the calculus sense. Somehow a single continuous object, a whole consciousness, appears from divided molecules. The only physical/reasonable way to explain this integration of particles is by QM.

This ultimately means that all that is minimally required to produce my consciousness must have some degree of entanglement in order to fully correlate to this holistic consciousness.

 

[DBT]

The consciousness is somehow an integration of physical brain states. I am not just talking about integrating, say, carbon atoms to make a diamond. I really do mean integration in the calculus sense. Somehow a single continuous object, a whole consciousness, appears from divided molecules. The only physical/reasonable way to explain this integration of particles is by QM.

This ultimately means that all that is minimally required to produce my consciousness must have some degree of entanglement in order to fully correlate to this holistic consciousness.

Even assuming that what you say is true, this still doesn't establish a case for free will....unless you are defining free will as the possibility of different outcome under the same conditions. But under this definition, given that quantum states are not subject to will, a throw of the dice may be described as an example of free will.

 

[ryan]

The consciousness is somehow an integration of physical brain states. I am not just talking about integrating, say, carbon atoms to make a diamond. I really do mean integration in the calculus sense. Somehow a single continuous object, a whole consciousness, appears from divided molecules. The only physical/reasonable way to explain this integration of particles is by QM.

This ultimately means that all that is minimally required to produce my consciousness must have some degree of entanglement in order to fully correlate to this holistic consciousness.

Even assuming that what you say is true, this still doesn't establish a case for free will....unless you are defining free will as the possibility of different outcome under the same conditions. But under this definition, given that quantum states are not subject to will, a throw of the dice may be described as an example of free will.

Your given is basically what I am arguing against.

Rolling dice is just "relative probability" based the amount of information the observer has available. It may be determinable with enough information. QM might not be determinable no matter how much information the observer has.

And, I am not saying that dice could be like the decision making process. You may have said this because I wasn't really clear when I said, "all that is minimally required to produce my consciousness must have some degree of entanglement". I should have added "also" after "consciousness".

 

[DBT]

Your given is basically what I am arguing against.

Rolling dice is just "relative probability" based the amount of information the observer has available. It may be determinable with enough information. QM might not be determinable no matter how much information the observer has.

And, I am not saying that dice could be like the decision making process. You may have said this because I wasn't really clear when I said, "all that is minimally required to produce my consciousness must have some degree of entanglement". I should have added "also" after "consciousness".

A decision making process entails weighing cost to benefit ratios based on a given set of criteria, which for humans includes inherit likes, dislikes, aversions, desires, fears, etc, that are not necessarily always logical or rational, yet driven by these factors, which is not a matter of free will, just information processing....the brain being a parallel information processor.

If something unchosen interrupts this activity, like a random glitch, fluctuation or whatever, thus producing a different outcome, this cannot be described as an example of free will because it was neither chosen or a normal part of decision making. Just a disruption that altered what would otherwise have been the outcome. Perhaps a more desirable outcome had it not happened.

 

[ryan]

Your given is basically what I am arguing against.

Rolling dice is just "relative probability" based the amount of information the observer has available. It may be determinable with enough information. QM might not be determinable no matter how much information the observer has.

And, I am not saying that dice could be like the decision making process. You may have said this because I wasn't really clear when I said, "all that is minimally required to produce my consciousness must have some degree of entanglement". I should have added "also" after "consciousness".

A decision making process entails weighing cost to benefit ratios based on a given set of criteria, which for humans includes inherit likes, dislikes, aversions, desires, fears, etc, that are not necessarily always logical or rational, yet driven by these factors, which is not a matter of free will, just information processing....the brain being a parallel information processor.

If something unchosen interrupts this activity, like a random glitch, fluctuation or whatever, thus producing a different outcome, this cannot be described as an example of free will because it was neither chosen or a normal part of decision making. Just a disruption that altered what would otherwise have been the outcome. Perhaps a more desirable outcome had it not happened.

That isn't what I am talking about. It's more about the idea of the entire decision making process being entangled in a unified way as well as being objectively random, but not subjectively random.

Here is an abstract that summarizes nicely what I am talking about, https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1561627

 

[DBT]

A decision making process entails weighing cost to benefit ratios based on a given set of criteria, which for humans includes inherit likes, dislikes, aversions, desires, fears, etc, that are not necessarily always logical or rational, yet driven by these factors, which is not a matter of free will, just information processing....the brain being a parallel information processor.

If something unchosen interrupts this activity, like a random glitch, fluctuation or whatever, thus producing a different outcome, this cannot be described as an example of free will because it was neither chosen or a normal part of decision making. Just a disruption that altered what would otherwise have been the outcome. Perhaps a more desirable outcome had it not happened.

That isn't what I am talking about. It's more about the idea of the entire decision making process being entangled in a unified way as well as being objectively random, but not subjectively random.

Here is an abstract that summarizes nicely what I am talking about, https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1561627

Decision making is not random, that's the point. Decisions involve to criteria related to actual objects and events, to buy a house/ the benefit to cost ratio. Which car to buy, this model or that model, to go to work or stay home, cost to benefit, etc.

 

[Malintent]

Life by dictionary... or, as I like to call it, the Autistic Experience.. .where lines are hard and issues are black and white and words stand alone, on islands unto themselves, never with nuanced meaning or style. A line in a dictionary... nice and neat and easy to understand by itself without unpleasant, noisy distractions of how people imperfectly communicate.

"Do" is a state of action. Action is an expression of change. Things change without intent.
Anthropomorphisation is prevalent throughout language... try not to read too much into it or you will find yourself stuck in the Autistic Experience.

 

[ryan]

That isn't what I am talking about. It's more about the idea of the entire decision making process being entangled in a unified way as well as being objectively random, but not subjectively random.

Here is an abstract that summarizes nicely what I am talking about, https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1561627

Decision making is not random, that's the point. Decisions involve to criteria related to actual objects and events, to buy a house/ the benefit to cost ratio. Which car to buy, this model or that model, to go to work or stay home, cost to benefit, etc.

Subjectively on purpose, but the decisions would appear random to an outside observer looking at a brain's QM decision making processes, assuming QM decision making processes.

 

[DBT]

Decision making is not random, that's the point. Decisions involve to criteria related to actual objects and events, to buy a house/ the benefit to cost ratio. Which car to buy, this model or that model, to go to work or stay home, cost to benefit, etc.

Subjectively on purpose, but the decisions would appear random to an outside observer looking at a brain's QM decision making processes, assuming QM decision making processes.

QM is not the decision making process, that's what neural architecture is for; to process, sort and classify information - this is a house, that is a person, there is an animal, a vegetable, etc - and to respond to the objects and events of the world according to a set of criteria; this is desirable for such a reason, that is to be avoided, there is a good possibility of reward down the track but entails a degree of risk and hardship.

 

[ryan]

Subjectively on purpose, but the decisions would appear random to an outside observer looking at a brain's QM decision making processes, assuming QM decision making processes.

QM is not the decision making process, ...

My whole argument rests on whether or not QM decision making (with entanglement) is still considered a possibility. I have shown many papers of it being possible, predicted and even some evidence for it. I don't know how you can just say it isn't and expect me to take your word for it.

... that's what neural architecture is for; to process, sort and classify information - this is a house, that is a person, there is an animal, a vegetable, etc - and to respond to the objects and events of the world according to a set of criteria; this is desirable for such a reason, that is to be avoided, there is a good possibility of reward down the track but entails a degree of risk and hardship.

 

[DBT]

QM is not the decision making process, ...

My whole argument rests on whether or not QM decision making (with entanglement) is still considered a possibility. I have shown many papers of it being possible, predicted and even some evidence for it. I don't know how you can just say it isn't and expect me to take your word for it.

... that's what neural architecture is for; to process, sort and classify information - this is a house, that is a person, there is an animal, a vegetable, etc - and to respond to the objects and events of the world according to a set of criteria; this is desirable for such a reason, that is to be avoided, there is a good possibility of reward down the track but entails a degree of risk and hardship.

It's not my word. The fact is that when neural connectivity fails due to physical damage to architecture, there is no decision making process. All the evidence supports this. You can't get around that. Whatever role microtubules or underlying quantum effects may play within the brain, this is secondary to neural architecture. No functional macro scale neural architecture equals no consciousness, no information processing and no decision making.

 

[ryan]

My whole argument rests on whether or not QM decision making (with entanglement) is still considered a possibility. I have shown many papers of it being possible, predicted and even some evidence for it. I don't know how you can just say it isn't and expect me to take your word for it.

... that's what neural architecture is for; to process, sort and classify information - this is a house, that is a person, there is an animal, a vegetable, etc - and to respond to the objects and events of the world according to a set of criteria; this is desirable for such a reason, that is to be avoided, there is a good possibility of reward down the track but entails a degree of risk and hardship.

It's not my word. The fact is that when neural connectivity fails due to physical damage to architecture, there is no decision making process. All the evidence supports this. You can't get around that.

Yes, if the structure is destroyed the consciousness probably would be too. If anything QM entanglement would be more delicate than classical neural networks.

Whatever role microtubules or underlying quantum effects may play within the brain, this is secondary to neural architecture. No functional macro scale neural architecture equals no consciousness, no information processing and no decision making.

The possibility of entanglement changes all of that. Molecules can work in a unified way even though they may be separated parts of the architecture or additional to the architecture. This can affect the entire decision making process as a whole. The entangled molecules or microtubules of neurons would collectively inhibit signals, cause action potentials, etc.

 

[DBT]

The possibility of entanglement changes all of that. Molecules can work in a unified way even though they may be separated parts of the architecture or additional to the architecture. This can affect the entire decision making process as a whole. The entangled molecules or microtubules of neurons would collectively inhibit signals, cause action potentials, etc.

Particle entanglement doesn't change anything if the neural architecture/connecctivity breaks down, Entanglement may remain constant but consciousness breaks down regardless. A sufficient blow to the head, for instance, shuts down consciousness regardless of entanglement, activity and function of microtubules, or anything else quantum.

 

[ryan]

The possibility of entanglement changes all of that. Molecules can work in a unified way even though they may be separated parts of the architecture or additional to the architecture. This can affect the entire decision making process as a whole. The entangled molecules or microtubules of neurons would collectively inhibit signals, cause action potentials, etc.

Particle entanglement doesn't change anything if the neural architecture/connecctivity breaks down, Entanglement may remain constant but consciousness breaks down regardless. A sufficient blow to the head, for instance, shuts down consciousness regardless of entanglement, activity and function of microtubules, or anything else quantum.

I agree, but I don't see that being a problem for my argument. The entanglement also needs a heart in the body, lungs to breath, food, veins, etc.

added: oh I see what you mean. The entanglement probably won't "live" on since there would be such a major change to everything that it depends on.

 

[DBT]

Particle entanglement doesn't change anything if the neural architecture/connecctivity breaks down, Entanglement may remain constant but consciousness breaks down regardless. A sufficient blow to the head, for instance, shuts down consciousness regardless of entanglement, activity and function of microtubules, or anything else quantum.

I agree, but I don't see that being a problem for my argument. The entanglement also needs a heart in the body, lungs to breath, food, veins, etc.

added: oh I see what you mean. The entanglement probably won't "live" on since there would be such a major change to everything that it depends on.

Well its obviously a problem for quantum as a source of consciousness. Quantum underlies all things, but not all things appear to have consciousness.