Why does Iran hate Isreal?

[untermensche]

So all this talk about rockets is the concern over one dead Israeli?

That's why there are hundreds of dead Palestinian children?

The context here is support given to Hamas. Iran may be a "minor supporter", but the support it gives is something that can't be bought with money.

But if you insist, there are hundreds of dead Palestinian children because Hamas are bunch of fuckers who know nothing but violence. Instead of rocket parts, they could have smuggled in food, medicine, tools, machine parts, and so on. Instead of building bunkers and tunnels they could have been building houses and factories, farms.

I see. All those children were killed because Hamas is bad and killed one Israeli with a rocket.

Now it all makes sense.

Collective punishment. Reprisals.

Yes, that will help the situation.

 

[Jayjay]

They DID. That's what the majority of the smuggling was actually FOR.

Instead of building bunkers and tunnels they could have been building houses and factories, farms.

They DID. That, also, is what the lion's share of the smuggling was meant to support.

Meant to? So Hamas meant to build houses and factories, but got tunnels and rockets instead by some administrative blunder? Were their contractors holding the blueprints upside down?

As for supplies, rocket parts might be minority of it. But nevertheless, without that there would be more medicine and other supplies. The throughput of the smuggling operation is limited.

 

[untermensche]

They DID. That's what the majority of the smuggling was actually FOR.



They DID. That, also, is what the lion's share of the smuggling was meant to support.

Meant to? So Hamas meant to build houses and factories, but got tunnels and rockets instead by some administrative blunder? Were their contractors holding the blueprints upside down?

As for supplies, rocket parts might be minority of it. But nevertheless, without that there would be more medicine and other supplies. The throughput of the smuggling operation is limited.

A lot of the smuggling is humanitarian supplies.

The tunnels, under the town of Rafah, are used to transfer food, fuel and consumer products into the densely populated Palestinian enclave.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=680987

Only a minority of the tunnels are used to bring in weapons.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If evidence is required to support every opinion, we should shut down this forum immediately!

If we don't ask people to provide evidence to support odious opinions we might as well shut this forum down.

Just because you don't like reality doesn't make it go away.

The Shia/Sunni division is widely discussed and the use of Israel as a scapegoat is also discussed in places that aren't anti-semitic.

 

[Jayjay]

The context here is support given to Hamas. Iran may be a "minor supporter", but the support it gives is something that can't be bought with money.

But if you insist, there are hundreds of dead Palestinian children because Hamas are bunch of fuckers who know nothing but violence. Instead of rocket parts, they could have smuggled in food, medicine, tools, machine parts, and so on. Instead of building bunkers and tunnels they could have been building houses and factories, farms.

I see. All those children were killed because Hamas is bad and killed one Israeli with a rocket.

Of course not. Besides that Israeli was a beduin living in Negev, who got killed because Israel considered his home to be "open ground" and therefore didn't bother to extend Iron Dome over it. (As for the other Israeli civilian that was killed, I think that was not an Iranian rocket but mortar fire or shorter range rocket... but I'm too lazy to go check it out now.)

Those children got killed because Hamas wanted a shooting war. Hamas could have stopped the invasion on its tracks at the beginning by simply refraining from shooting those goddamn rockets. When it became obvious to Israel how many tunnels there were, there probably wouldn't have been anything Hamas could have done to convince Israel to not dismantle them, but those kidnapping tunnels are just another way of pissing Israel off for no good reason.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Iran may be a minor supporter in monetary terms, but they're the ones giving rocket parts and (presumably) training.

What exactly are the total Israeli casualties from these rockets?

You keep treating this as a sporting event.

- - - Updated - - -

Hamas has been pin pricking and goading Israel for a long time. Israel finally took the bait.

Hamas won a legitimate election and Israel simply nullified the vote.

A blockade is an act of aggression.

The truth is, Israel was very upset when Hamas tried to establish a unity government in Gaza. That is what this is all about. Every movement towards peace by the Palestinians is always met with violence from Israel. The thing it fears most is having to make peace with the Palestinians and end it's dreams of taking the entire West Bank.

Nullified the vote??

They recognized that the vote amounted to a declaration of war and reacted accordingly.

It was Hamas that staged a coup after the vote because they didn't get as much power as they wanted.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Meant to? So Hamas meant to build houses and factories but got tunnels and rockets instead by some administrative blunder?

No, they got houses, farms, a few (small) factories. They ALSO got more tunnels, which allowed them to build more houses, farms and a few slightly less-small factories.

As for supplies, rocket parts might be minority of it.

Read above. I don't believe they are actually smuggling rocket parts from abroad anymore. At this point, they're probably making it all in-house.

 

[Jayjay]

Meant to? So Hamas meant to build houses and factories, but got tunnels and rockets instead by some administrative blunder? Were their contractors holding the blueprints upside down?

As for supplies, rocket parts might be minority of it. But nevertheless, without that there would be more medicine and other supplies. The throughput of the smuggling operation is limited.

A lot of the smuggling is humanitarian supplies.

The tunnels, under the town of Rafah, are used to transfer food, fuel and consumer products into the densely populated Palestinian enclave.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=680987

Only a minority of the tunnels are used to bring in weapons.

So where did the 10,000 rockets (or their parts and fuel) come from? Where did the cement to make those tunnels come from? Where did all the other weapons that Hamas has come from? This may be a "minority", and it's not as if Hamas has any public records on what goes in or out, but if I pull a number out of my ass and presume that only 20% are for weapons and Hamas's infrastructure use, that's still 20% that could be used for civilian purposes. Plus, without the periodical wars that Hamas starts a lot of the civilian infrastructure wouldn't have been blown to pieces.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It was Hamas that staged a coup after the vote because they didn't get as much power as they wanted.

Incorrect. The Bush Administration joined with the Israelis immediately after the election and demanded that Hamas renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist or Palestine would face harsh sanctions. Hamas refused, stating -- correctly -- that foreign governments have no business demanding concessions from political parties. Fatah then panicked, trying to oust Hamas from power (with Israel's support) and Hamas reacted by kicking Fatah's ass and driving them out of Gaza altogether.

Interestingly, we now come full circle once again: Israel refuses to accept any unity government that includes Hamas, and has now concocted a massive military operation designed to drive them back to the fringes and cripple their resources and their people as much as possible. The result is a bloodbath which they will ALSO blame on Hamas because Freedom.

 

[Jayjay]

No, they got houses, farms, a few (small) factories. They ALSO got more tunnels, which allowed them to build more houses, farms and a few slightly less-small factories.

Smuggling tunnels to Egypt, yes. But the tunnels to Israel are not for smuggling.

As for supplies, rocket parts might be minority of it.

Read above. I don't believe they are actually smuggling rocket parts from abroad anymore. At this point, they're probably making it all in-house.

Even if they are making the rockets, they still need the parts and the fuel. As for your earlier comment, I doubt hamas figured out by themselves how to make and fire Fajr rockets. They don't have the space to do test launches or refine the designs. It's far more likely that they got support from Iran or Hezbollah who showed them how the stuff is made.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In this conflict, I think just one. But these are the only rockets that can reach Tel Aviv or any other part of Israel besides the villages just next to Gaza, and it's not like Hamas can just buy them from Home Depot.

They've spent almost ten years designing, building, testing and refining the designs of those things. They've had old Russian and Iranian rockets to examine and use, they've had their own designs to play with. They've had every opportunity to learn how to make these rockets ON THEIR OWN and every reason to continue to do so. I don't think they're "buying" them from anyone, I think they make those rockets entirely on their own.

Israel has intercepted multiple shiploads of weapons.

Some are homemade (which explains the horrible misfire rate) and the long range stuff is almost all imported.

 

[untermensche]

So where did the 10,000 rockets (or their parts and fuel) come from? Where did the cement to make those tunnels come from? Where did all the other weapons that Hamas has come from? This may be a "minority", and it's not as if Hamas has any public records on what goes in or out, but if I pull a number out of my ass and presume that only 20% are for weapons and Hamas's infrastructure use, that's still 20% that could be used for civilian purposes. Plus, without the periodical wars that Hamas starts a lot of the civilian infrastructure wouldn't have been blown to pieces.

Again, the crude rockets.

So this is all about the alleged killing of one Israeli by rockets? That's why hundreds of children have been killed and thousands terrorized?

 

[Jayjay]

So where did the 10,000 rockets (or their parts and fuel) come from? Where did the cement to make those tunnels come from? Where did all the other weapons that Hamas has come from? This may be a "minority", and it's not as if Hamas has any public records on what goes in or out, but if I pull a number out of my ass and presume that only 20% are for weapons and Hamas's infrastructure use, that's still 20% that could be used for civilian purposes. Plus, without the periodical wars that Hamas starts a lot of the civilian infrastructure wouldn't have been blown to pieces.

Again, the crude rockets.

So this is all about the alleged killing of one Israeli by rockets? That's why hundreds of children have been killed and thousands terrorized?

Why do you insist on harping on that one Israeli? It's completely irrelevant. He was killed weeks into the conflict. Hundreds of children had already died at that point. But I suspect you knew that. The issue here was Iran's support to Hamas. It doesn't matter if the rockets killed thousand Israelis or one or nobody at all. Point is that the rockets are something Hamas can't get from Saudi Arabia or Qatar, even if those two might be the biggest supporters in terms of money.

 

[untermensche]

Again, the crude rockets.

So this is all about the alleged killing of one Israeli by rockets? That's why hundreds of children have been killed and thousands terrorized?

Why do you insist on harping on that one Israeli? It's completely irrelevant. He was killed weeks into the conflict. Hundreds of children had already died at that point. But I suspect you knew that. The issue here was Iran's support to Hamas. It doesn't matter if the rockets killed thousand Israelis or one or nobody at all. Point is that the rockets are something Hamas can't get from Saudi Arabia or Qatar, even if those two might be the biggest supporters in terms of money.

So Israel attacked and began killing an unarmed mainly civilian population despite the fact that not one Israeli had been harmed by the rockets?

And how exactly is this brutal attack justified?

Israel has the right to kill to defend itself from worthless rocket fire?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Smuggling tunnels to Egypt, yes. But the tunnels to Israel are not for smuggling.

Actually, most of them ARE. The Israeli mafia makes a killing off the Palestinian market, especially in the demand for consumer electronics and end-products that the Palestinians otherwise couldn't get from the Egyptian side. There is, as I'm sure you've noticed, a relatively high demand among Palestinian teenagers for smartphones...

Even if they are making the rockets, they still need the parts and the fuel.

Fuel is ridiculously easy to make. Artillery rockets like the Qassams use cordite, which is just nitroglycerine and nitro-cellulose; with some basic knowledge of chemistry, you could make that in your kitchen. Hamas, by now, has industrialized that process, and considering how dangerous it is to smuggle that stuff in bulk it's EXTREMELY unlikely they are importing it from elsewhere.

As for your earlier comment, I doubt hamas figured out by themselves how to make and fire Fajr rockets.

Not on their own, no. The Iranians sold them the blueprints.

But the fact is they don't need to smuggle the parts OR the fuel if they have even basic knowledge of how to construct them and enough time to setup a manufacturing capability. They have had both.

 

[Jayjay]

Why do you insist on harping on that one Israeli? It's completely irrelevant. He was killed weeks into the conflict. Hundreds of children had already died at that point. But I suspect you knew that. The issue here was Iran's support to Hamas. It doesn't matter if the rockets killed thousand Israelis or one or nobody at all. Point is that the rockets are something Hamas can't get from Saudi Arabia or Qatar, even if those two might be the biggest supporters in terms of money.

So Israel attacked and began killing an unarmed mainly civilian population despite the fact that not one Israeli had been harmed by the rockets?

And how exactly is this brutal attack justified?

Israel has the right to kill to defend itself from worthless rocket fire?

Yup. Even if nobody is killed, there's still potential danger, there is occasional infrastructure damage, the cost of the Iron Dome interceptors themselves (Wikipedia says $20,000 - $50,000 per missile), and financial cost for reduced tourism and disruptions in business due to e.g. shutting down air traffic for a while after a rocket hit near the Ben Gurion airport. These things are hardly worthless.

The rockets are not worthless to Hamas either. Sure they can build the crude Qassam rockets by themselves for cheap, but their range is limited. The military-grade stuff they get from Iran isn't so easy to manufacture or get operational. Plus there is the launch pads and storage requirements.

 

[Jayjay]

Actually, most of them ARE. The Israeli mafia makes a killing off the Palestinian market, especially in the demand for consumer electronics and end-products that the Palestinians otherwise couldn't get from the Egyptian side. There is, as I'm sure you've noticed, a relatively high demand among Palestinian teenagers for smartphones...

Source? Not for the smartphone part, but for the smuggling from Israel. I've heard the claim made a few times before but I've not seen any news or articles that would back up that there is any significant smuggling from Israel to Gaza directly. Iimagine that if Israeli criminal element is involved, it'd be a lot easier to smuggle stuff first over the border to Egypt and then via tunnels back to Gaza.

As for your earlier comment, I doubt hamas figured out by themselves how to make and fire Fajr rockets.

Not on their own, no. The Iranians sold them the blueprints.

But the fact is they don't need to smuggle the parts OR the fuel if they have even basic knowledge of how to construct them and enough time to setup a manufacturing capability. They have had both.

The article says nothing about Iran "selling" the blueprints, but giving them. And besides, it's not like IRGC would openly admit training or supplying parts anyway. All they need is plausible deniability.

 

[untermensche]

So Israel attacked and began killing an unarmed mainly civilian population despite the fact that not one Israeli had been harmed by the rockets?

And how exactly is this brutal attack justified?

Israel has the right to kill to defend itself from worthless rocket fire?

Yup. Even if nobody is killed, there's still potential danger, there is occasional infrastructure damage, the cost of the Iron Dome interceptors themselves (Wikipedia says $20,000 - $50,000 per missile), and financial cost for reduced tourism and disruptions in business due to e.g. shutting down air traffic for a while after a rocket hit near the Ben Gurion airport. These things are hardly worthless.

The rockets are not worthless to Hamas either. Sure they can build the crude Qassam rockets by themselves for cheap, but their range is limited. The military-grade stuff they get from Iran isn't so easy to manufacture or get operational. Plus there is the launch pads and storage requirements.

Israel can get rid of the rockets without killing people.

Give up it's dreams of expansion and make peace.

They prefer to kill Palestinian children and maintain the settlements.

 

[Jayjay]

Yup. Even if nobody is killed, there's still potential danger, there is occasional infrastructure damage, the cost of the Iron Dome interceptors themselves (Wikipedia says $20,000 - $50,000 per missile), and financial cost for reduced tourism and disruptions in business due to e.g. shutting down air traffic for a while after a rocket hit near the Ben Gurion airport. These things are hardly worthless.

The rockets are not worthless to Hamas either. Sure they can build the crude Qassam rockets by themselves for cheap, but their range is limited. The military-grade stuff they get from Iran isn't so easy to manufacture or get operational. Plus there is the launch pads and storage requirements.

Israel can get rid of the rockets without killing people.

Give up it's dreams of expansion and make peace.

They prefer to kill Palestinian children and maintain the settlements.

Bollocks. Hamas doesn't care about the settlements: they haven't launched a single attack against the settlements in West Bank in recent years, unless you count the botched kidnapping of those three kids.

In a way, Hamas is following Hebzollah's footsteps. After Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah didn't give up its weapons. On the contrary, it started stocking up and kept sniping at Israel. It only stopped after 2006 when Israel retaliated in excessive force. If history is any indication, only way to stop fuckers like Hezbollah or Hamas is to kill people (though the reason Hezbollah was deterred wasn't the lives lost, it was the costly infrastructure losses. The people that got killed were largely collateral damage, just like in Gaza). Sad but true, once you let the conflict into the point where such groups get into power, there is no winding back the clock to get rid of them.

 

[untermensche]

Israel can get rid of the rockets without killing people.

Give up it's dreams of expansion and make peace.

They prefer to kill Palestinian children and maintain the settlements.

Bollocks. Hamas doesn't care about the settlements: they haven't launched a single attack against the settlements in West Bank in recent years, unless you count the botched kidnapping of those three kids.

In a way, Hamas is following Hebzollah's footsteps. After Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah didn't give up its weapons. On the contrary, it started stocking up and kept sniping at Israel. It only stopped after 2006 when Israel retaliated in excessive force. If history is any indication, only way to stop fuckers like Hezbollah or Hamas is to kill people. Sad but true, once you let the conflict into the point where such groups get into power, there is no winding back the clock to get rid of them.

Hamas won't exist very long in a sovereign Palestine.

The people will have far more important things to do than worry about Israel.

The only reason they care about Israel now is because it's boot is slowly crushing them. Remove the boot and there is no reason to give a damn about Israel.