What's the fuss about recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital?

[Ford]

If Israel is not entitled to Jerusalem, what is it entitled to?

Well there's the rub, Lumpy. Some dusty old book says that god personally gave that city to the Hebrews, but another dusty old book says "actually no" and a third book says "all we really care about is the Armageddon."

Kinda weird that in the 21st Century we're still arguing over which group Bronze Age god gave the land to, but that's the idiocy of religion for ya.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

too much semantics, not enough stating the reality

To insist that Israel cannot claim Jerusalem as its capital is the same as saying Israel should not exist as a nation. If Israel is not entitled to Jerusalem, what is it entitled to?

That doesn't follow. The issue isn't that Israel can't choose its own capital; but that capital should be a city that's actually recognized as part of Israel.

What does "recognized" mean? Is it part of Israel or not? You are making no sense unless you mean "Jerusalem is not part of Israel." Do you say that? You have to say those words, or you are making no sense. So that question has to be answered first.

If Jerusalem is not part of Israel, then what is? If that city can be judged as not part of Israel, then you can just as easily claim that nothing else is part of Israel either.

Half of Jerusalem is considered occupied territory by the most countries of the world, including America.

Virtually all land on the planet is "occupied territory."

It's better to put aside the jingo and speak plainly.

It's inconsistent to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and at the same time not recognize it as part of Israel.

It is part of Israel, which claims it as the capital, and so it's consistent with reality to recognize it as the capital and locate the embassy there. Like we do with all other countries which exist and possess territory.

It's a bit as if Russia declared Alaska to be a Russian oblast. Should America recognize that too?

This is why your word "recognize" is meaningless. Alaska is not part of Russia. If anything should be "recognized" it should be whatever is fact, and it's not a fact that Alaska is part of Russia, but it is a fact that Jerusalem is part of Israel.

You need to stop obsessing on what is "recognized" by whom, and just ask what the reality is.

Would non-recognition of such claims in any way indicate that Russia doesn't have right to exist as a nation?

Again your obsession with "recognition" or "recognized" etc. instead of with the reality.

Is Alaska part of Russia or not? Yes or no?

Is Jerusalem part of Israel or not? Yes or no?

Once it's established what the reality is, then the question of who recognizes it and who does not might be useful.

 

[Derec]

Jerusalem is a sacred city to Muslims and Palestinians.

It is a much more important/sacred city to Jews/Israelis.
Muslims already have Mecca and Medina.

 

[Arctish]

Jerusalem is a sacred city to Muslims and Palestinians.

It is a much more important/sacred city to Jews/Israelis.
Muslims already have Mecca and Medina.

What is this, a pissing contest over who cares about Jerusalem the most? My bet is the people who actually live there care about it the most, followed by those with property, business interests, and family history there.

 

[Derec]

What is this, a pissing contest over who cares about Jerusalem the most? My bet is the people who actually live there care about it the most, followed by those with property, business interests, and family history there.

You hear the argument frequently that Muslim Palestinians should get Jerusalem because it is the "third most holy city in Islam". Apparently it doesn't matter that it is the most holy city in Judaism. Muslims must be appeased, lest they start killing people. Oh, wait.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

If Israel is not entitled to Jerusalem, what is it entitled to?

Well there's the rub, Lumpy. Some dusty old book says that god personally gave that city to the Hebrews, but another dusty old book says "actually no" and a third book says "all we really care about is the Armageddon."

Kinda weird that in the 21st Century we're still arguing over which group Bronze Age god gave the land to, but that's the idiocy of religion for ya.

So then, your answer is that Israel is not entitled to any territory? Is any country entitled to any territory? What entitles them to it?

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

To insist that Israel cannot claim Jerusalem as its capital is the same as saying Israel should not exist as a nation. If Israel is not entitled to Jerusalem, what is it entitled to?

Are you also onboard with Palestine claiming Jerusalem as its capital and us opening the Palestinian embassies there? Why not make it both nations' capital?

That might be OK, when Palestine is a nation.

Is Catalonia a nation yet?

 

[Arctish]

What is this, a pissing contest over who cares about Jerusalem the most? My bet is the people who actually live there care about it the most, followed by those with property, business interests, and family history there.

You hear the argument frequently that Muslim Palestinians should get Jerusalem because it is the "third most holy city in Islam". Apparently it doesn't matter that it is the most holy city in Judaism. Muslims must be appeased, lest they start killing people. Oh, wait.

I only hear that argument when someone is playing the Whose Beliefs Matter card. The fact it's holy to Jews is made out to be the most convincing argument ever for why it should be Israel's capital, while the fact it's holy to Muslims is dismissed as irrelevant. The only people who find it convincing are the ones whose religious beliefs it reinforces, and bigots who think Palestinians don't deserve a nice place like Jerusalem.

Anyway, the argument that Muslims already have holy cities elsewhere so Jews should have this one is pretty lame.

 

[Ford]

If Israel is not entitled to Jerusalem, what is it entitled to?

Well there's the rub, Lumpy. Some dusty old book says that god personally gave that city to the Hebrews, but another dusty old book says "actually no" and a third book says "all we really care about is the Armageddon."

Kinda weird that in the 21st Century we're still arguing over which group Bronze Age god gave the land to, but that's the idiocy of religion for ya.

So then, your answer is that Israel is not entitled to any territory? Is any country entitled to any territory? What entitles them to it?

Well Israel isn't "entitled" to any territory based on the "got gave it to us" argument. For that matter neither are the Palestinians. Simply claiming a plot of land because "got gave it to us" is absurd, don't you think?

 

[Jayjay]

What does "recognized" mean? Is it part of Israel or not? You are making no sense unless you mean "Jerusalem is not part of Israel." Do you say that? You have to say those words, or you are making no sense. So that question has to be answered first.

If Jerusalem is not part of Israel, then what is? If that city can be judged as not part of Israel, then you can just as easily claim that nothing else is part of Israel either.

West Jerusalem is part of Israel. East Jerusalem is not, but Israel thinks it is. So the Jerusalem that Israel recognizes as its capital is not part of Israel.

Half of Jerusalem is considered occupied territory by the most countries of the world, including America.

Virtually all land on the planet is "occupied territory."

It's better to put aside the jingo and speak plainly.

I was talking about military occupation, which has a specific meaning.

It's inconsistent to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and at the same time not recognize it as part of Israel.

It is part of Israel, which claims it as the capital, and so it's consistent with reality to recognize it as the capital and locate the embassy there. Like we do with all other countries which exist and possess territory.

The dilemma is East Jerusalem. If Israel can't agree with the world on where Jerusalem is and what it's borders are, why should anyone else?

It's a bit as if Russia declared Alaska to be a Russian oblast. Should America recognize that too?

This is why your word "recognize" is meaningless. Alaska is not part of Russia. If anything should be "recognized" it should be whatever is fact, and it's not a fact that Alaska is part of Russia, but it is a fact that Jerusalem is part of Israel.

You need to stop obsessing on what is "recognized" by whom, and just ask what the reality is.

The point of the thought experiment was, that what if Russia said Alaska was a Russian territory, and USA obviously disagreed, it would not imply that USA doesn't recognize that Russia exists. It only disputes that single territory. By analogy, not recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital (or more accurately, not respecting it as its capital by moving an embassy therein) doesn't imply non-recognition of Israel as a country.

The reality is that only West Jerusalem is part of Israel, and East Jerusalem is under military occupation. It's Israel's failure to recognize that reality.

 

[Jayjay]

Jerusalem is a sacred city to Muslims and Palestinians.

It is a much more important/sacred city to Jews/Israelis.
Muslims already have Mecca and Medina.

Religious delusions are not a sound method of determining land ownership.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

What entitles a nation to its territory?

So then, your answer is that Israel is not entitled to any territory? Is any country entitled to any territory? What entitles them to it?

Well Israel isn't "entitled" to any territory based on the "got gave it to us" argument. For that matter neither are the Palestinians. Simply claiming a plot of land because "got gave it to us" is absurd, don't you think?

So then, since some of them claim "God gave it to us," your conclusion is that Israel is entitled to no territory? Also, since some Americans sing, "God bless America," that means the U.S. should have no territory? Every country having people in it who think God gave them something is entitled to have no territory?

So, only countries who take an oath renouncing any belief in God are entitled to have any territory?

Is that why Israel should not exist? because it believes God gave them some land?

Israel seems to be a nation. Its gdp is 34th largest among 191 nations recognized by the U.N. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
And in other ways also it seems to be a country entitled to own some territory, like the other 191 recognized countries which choose the location of their capital. If Jerusalem is not part of Israel's legitimate territory, what is its legitimate territory? What entitles any country to the territory we assume belongs to it?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

The problem with nation state argument is that Palestinians in occupied territory don't have one officially according to others. They are not recognized. So we're hearing "israel has the right to self-determination," but these Palestinians are being excluded from the same rights.

 

[untermensche]

Can one be this blind to recent history?

The American pathology of knowing absolutely no history.

Jerusalem is a sacred city to Muslims and Palestinians.

This is a very controversial issue.

It is not just a Jewish city despite what the stupidest man in the world thinks.

Personally, I could care less about either side's religion. Just don't care. To me, the issue is simple. Jerusalem is roughly 61% Jewish, 39% Palestinian. Therefore, allow the Jewish section to remain in Israel, allow the Palestinian side to go to the West Bank; give all citizens remaining in the Jewish side equal citizenship.

It's not 61% Jewish by some act of Yahweh.

It was made 61% Jewish by theft and brutality.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Can one be this blind to recent history?

The American pathology of knowing absolutely no history.

Jerusalem is a sacred city to Muslims and Palestinians.

This is a very controversial issue.

It is not just a Jewish city despite what the stupidest man in the world thinks.

Personally, I could care less about either side's religion. Just don't care. To me, the issue is simple. Jerusalem is roughly 61% Jewish, 39% Palestinian. Therefore, allow the Jewish section to remain in Israel, allow the Palestinian side to go to the West Bank; give all citizens remaining in the Jewish side equal citizenship.

It's not 61% Jewish by some act of Yahweh.

It was made 61% Jewish by theft and brutality.

I'm not going to get into a history debate. I try to not let history determine my actions. I want to find solutions to real problems that will work longterm. IMO, land belongs to the people who live there. And people should determine how they should be ruled. Therefore, to me the solution is simply Israel and Palestinians decide on a border; and then all the people within that border become citizens. A two-state solution. If Israel is against that, fine. They have several million more voting citizens that might make things interesting.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

It's not 61% Jewish by some act of Yahweh.

It was made 61% Jewish by theft and brutality.

I'm not going to get into a history debate. I try to not let history determine my actions. I want to find solutions to real problems that will work longterm. IMO, land belongs to the people who live there. And people should determine how they should be ruled. Therefore, to me the solution is simply Israel and Palestinians decide on a border; and then all the people within that border become citizens. A two-state solution. If Israel is against that, fine. They have several million more voting citizens that might make things interesting.

...which is one factor in why things are the way they are. Palestinians in occupied territory are essentially non-people. They cannot have their own recognized nation and they cannot become a part of Israel.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It's not 61% Jewish by some act of Yahweh.

It was made 61% Jewish by theft and brutality.

I'm not going to get into a history debate. I try to not let history determine my actions. I want to find solutions to real problems that will work longterm. IMO, land belongs to the people who live there. And people should determine how they should be ruled. Therefore, to me the solution is simply Israel and Palestinians decide on a border; and then all the people within that border become citizens. A two-state solution. If Israel is against that, fine. They have several million more voting citizens that might make things interesting.

...which is one factor in why things are the way they are. Palestinians in occupied territory are essentially non-people. They cannot have their own recognized nation and they cannot become a part of Israel.

Yeah, when looked at in this light, it becomes hard to say the Palestinians are getting anything of a decent ride out of this. I remember Trump saying one-state would be great, clearly being oblivious to the result of such an outcome. Of course, they could get Tom Delay to do the districting.

 

[funinspace]

It's not 61% Jewish by some act of Yahweh.

It was made 61% Jewish by theft and brutality.

I'm not going to get into a history debate. I try to not let history determine my actions. I want to find solutions to real problems that will work longterm. IMO, land belongs to the people who live there. And people should determine how they should be ruled. Therefore, to me the solution is simply Israel and Palestinians decide on a border; and then all the people within that border become citizens. A two-state solution. If Israel is against that, fine. They have several million more voting citizens that might make things interesting.

...which is one factor in why things are the way they are. Palestinians in occupied territory are essentially non-people. They cannot have their own recognized nation and they cannot become a part of Israel.

Yep, in other words Apartheid. The Israeli's have been in a 3 decade systematic pogrom to steal the best lands in the West Bank and partition the people who live their out of their livelyhood and land...

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's been done. Was done. Until the Israelis won a couple of wars and displaced the shared authority of the city with a unitary Israeli one. For some reason, the Israelis have been reluctant to return to that eminently equitable state of affairs.

History lesson:

Original partition: Jerusalem entirely to Israel.

1948 armistice: "East Jerusalem" was on the Arab side of the armistice line. It was ethnically cleansed.

1967 war: It was recaptured by Israel.

The only time that "original" state existed was from the 48 armistice to the 67 war. There never was a shared authority, either.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure. I imagine the Zionists would have seized even more land and turned even more Palestinians into refugees.

They seized nothing before the Arab attack.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem with nation state argument is that Palestinians in occupied territory don't have one officially according to others. They are not recognized. So we're hearing "israel has the right to self-determination," but these Palestinians are being excluded from the same rights.

If you want the rights of a nation you have to be a nation.

The Palestinians consistently refuse because they don't want a two-state solution. Their objective is to conquer Israel.