What do you mean by religious experience and can atheists have them?

[southernhybrid]

The theists here have mentioned that they have had religious experiences, but they've never given me an explanation of exactly what that means, so I thought I'd try to find out how religious experiences are defined.

I found a link that seems to do a good job. I've had many of these experiences myself, but I've never labeled them as religious. I will try to give a few examples and hope that both atheists and theists will share their own experiences or lack of experiences.

http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~janzb/courses/rel3432/religiousexperience1.htm

1. Interpretive Experiences: I've had plenty of these. For example, When I was about 31, a large man followed me to my car late at night. He pushed me into my car and threatened to rape me. Instead of acting scared or having a panic attack, I noticed he was wearing a wedding ring. I used that finding to make him feel guilty, which immediately let me take control of the situation. He eventually left my car without so much as touching me. If I had been a theist, I might have felt as if God had helped me see the ring and successfully use it against him.

2. Quasi-Sensory Experiences
"Here we have experiences in which the primary element is a physical sensation from one of the recognized senses. This includes visions, dreams, voices, and other sounds, smells, etc. It also includes the feeling of rising up (levitation)."

Haven't we all had these experiences, optical illusions, dreams that later seemed to be true, etc. I don't know why these would be considered religious unless you're religious and use that as an explanation. I had two imaginary friends when I was three and they seemed very real, but even at that young age, I think I understood that they were merely figments of my imagination. I had a recurrent dream that later seemed related to an event in my life, but I think it must have been a coincidence, since the dream didn't help me avoid the awful event. I've also cared for many mentally ill people who had extreme hallucinations and delusions. At least one of them thought it was god speaking to her. Perhaps we all sometimes have a small taste of those things. For example, I've had a few seizures and I experienced a very colorful, strong aura prior to seizing. It seemed very real, but I know it was just my brain fucking up before I seized. Our brains are remarkable organs that can make us think and do a lot of things, that our outside of our normal thinking.

3. Revelatory Experiences

"This is what the subjects might call sudden convictions, conversion, inspiration, revelation, enlightenment, the "mystical vision", and such like. They are not just mystical experience (we're coming to that one), but have other characteristics:"

Interesting enough, I had one of these experiences the day that I first realized my atheism. After searching for the true religion for about 10 years, it hit me like a thunder bolt that there were no gods out there. I felt enlightened, and joyful. Of course, I don't think this was a religious experience and I imagine that most people have an "aha" moment at least one time in their lives, especially if they have been looking for answers and finally find a solution. So, to me, this is just one more common human experience, with or without religion.

4. Regenerative Experiences
"This is the most frequent type of religious experience among ordinary people (that is, non-mystics, prophets, psychics). It includes a wide range of experiences -- new hope, joy, strength, comfort, peace, security. They are seen as religious because they are obtained during a religious exercise such as prayer, and they are apparently brought about by divine agency. The experience could be sudden or gradual, strong or weak, vague or specific."

Haven't we all had experiences like those mentioned above? Haven't we listened to a particular piece of music, watched a beautiful sunset or even moved on from a bad relationship or a left a job, and then suddenly had a rush of hope, peace or awe comes over us? I sure have, but again, I never associated it with religion, as I wasn't praying or doing any type of religious ritual when these things happened.

5. Numinous Experiences
"Rudolph Otto, in The Idea of the Holy, attempts a phenomenological description of "the holy". The holy is a combination of supreme moral goodness, and something more fundamental -- the "numinous". The feeling of numinous consists in two things:

A. "creature-consciousness": that is, the feeling that humanity is despicable before eternal majesty;

B. "mysterium tremendum":
a) awe or dread before the numen;
b) the sense of being completely overpowered in the presence of such majesty;
c) an experience of intense, almost unbearable energy or urgency;
d) the sense that the numen is "wholly other";
e) a fascination or with or attraction to the numen, and rapture upon contact with it."

This one is a little confusing. I do have physical experiences that make me feel almost supernatural, but I'm not sure I understand exactly what is meant by the numinous. I have felt emotionally rewarded when I've been able to help someone solve a problem of their own. We have some amazing brain chemicals that can make us feel at peace, physically overwhelmed with joy or intense energy, but I'm not sure if that is what the author is describing here. Imo, all of these things are due to our complex brains and the neurotransmitters sending signals.

I'd like a theist to give his or her own interpretation of religious experience and tell me why my experiences as an atheist aren't pretty much the same thing, other than my not supposing they are related to a god or religion. I'd like to know if other atheists experience some of the above. I'm rather convinced that which religious people refer to as "religious experiences" are just common natural occurrences, that most of us have at one time or another in our lives. Explain to me why I'm wrong. If you managed to read my long OP, thanks for taking the time.

 

[Tharmas]

Thanks for an interesting read. When I was about ten I had an experience that fit under the first category, "Interpretive Experiences," as further explained in the link:

- Some people connect paranormal experiences that have no specific religious content as being religious. One woman went to a movie with her husband, leaving her baby in the care of a sitter. When she got to the movie, she felt very uneasy and smelled burning. She went home, and saw that the baby-sitter had fallen asleep, dropped a cigarette, and the house was on fire. Both baby and sitter were saved, and the woman ascribed this to God's intervention.

That is, I experienced what I took to be a paranormal experience. The event seemed so striking to me that it literally gave me goose bumps and took my breath away when it occurred..

Even at the time I didn't ascribe this experience to God, but rather sort of kept it in my mind as I grew, as a kind of check to excessive rationalism. Remember, I would tell myself, there are things in this universe that can't be explained by science. When I was a teenager I became fascinated by Dunne's An Experiment With Time, which described events which seemed to parallel mine and which posited a quasi-scientific theory to explain them.

How much this view impacted my later mental development I don't know, even though as I matured and gained experience and saw many coincidences in life, the memory of my own "event" lost most of its power over my thinking. However I can see how if I had been raised more religiously the experience could very easily seemed like a confirmation of God's existence, or at the very least of some kind of cosmic force that transcended "mere" human physics.

 

[Politesse]

The theists here have mentioned that they have had religious experiences, but they've never given me an explanation of exactly what that means, so I thought I'd try to find out how religious experiences are defined.

I found a link that seems to do a good job. I've had many of these experiences myself, but I've never labeled them as religious. I will try to give a few examples and hope that both atheists and theists will share their own experiences or lack of experiences.

http://pegasus.cc.ucf.edu/~janzb/courses/rel3432/religiousexperience1.htm

1. Interpretive Experiences: I've had plenty of these. For example, When I was about 31, a large man followed me to my car late at night. He pushed me into my car and threatened to rape me. Instead of acting scared or having a panic attack, I noticed he was wearing a wedding ring. I used that finding to make him feel guilty, which immediately let me take control of the situation. He eventually left my car without so much as touching me. If I had been a theist, I might have felt as if God had helped me see the ring and successfully use it against him.

2. Quasi-Sensory Experiences
"Here we have experiences in which the primary element is a physical sensation from one of the recognized senses. This includes visions, dreams, voices, and other sounds, smells, etc. It also includes the feeling of rising up (levitation)."

Haven't we all had these experiences, optical illusions, dreams that later seemed to be true, etc. I don't know why these would be considered religious unless you're religious and use that as an explanation. I had two imaginary friends when I was three and they seemed very real, but even at that young age, I think I understood that they were merely figments of my imagination. I had a recurrent dream that later seemed related to an event in my life, but I think it must have been a coincidence, since the dream didn't help me avoid the awful event. I've also cared for many mentally ill people who had extreme hallucinations and delusions. At least one of them thought it was god speaking to her. Perhaps we all sometimes have a small taste of those things. For example, I've had a few seizures and I experienced a very colorful, strong aura prior to seizing. It seemed very real, but I know it was just my brain fucking up before I seized. Our brains are remarkable organs that can make us think and do a lot of things, that our outside of our normal thinking.

3. Revelatory Experiences

"This is what the subjects might call sudden convictions, conversion, inspiration, revelation, enlightenment, the "mystical vision", and such like. They are not just mystical experience (we're coming to that one), but have other characteristics:"

Interesting enough, I had one of these experiences the day that I first realized my atheism. After searching for the true religion for about 10 years, it hit me like a thunder bolt that there were no gods out there. I felt enlightened, and joyful. Of course, I don't think this was a religious experience and I imagine that most people have an "aha" moment at least one time in their lives, especially if they have been looking for answers and finally find a solution. So, to me, this is just one more common human experience, with or without religion.

4. Regenerative Experiences
"This is the most frequent type of religious experience among ordinary people (that is, non-mystics, prophets, psychics). It includes a wide range of experiences -- new hope, joy, strength, comfort, peace, security. They are seen as religious because they are obtained during a religious exercise such as prayer, and they are apparently brought about by divine agency. The experience could be sudden or gradual, strong or weak, vague or specific."

Haven't we all had experiences like those mentioned above? Haven't we listened to a particular piece of music, watched a beautiful sunset or even moved on from a bad relationship or a left a job, and then suddenly had a rush of hope, peace or awe comes over us? I sure have, but again, I never associated it with religion, as I wasn't praying or doing any type of religious ritual when these things happened.

5. Numinous Experiences
"Rudolph Otto, in The Idea of the Holy, attempts a phenomenological description of "the holy". The holy is a combination of supreme moral goodness, and something more fundamental -- the "numinous". The feeling of numinous consists in two things:

A. "creature-consciousness": that is, the feeling that humanity is despicable before eternal majesty;

B. "mysterium tremendum":
a) awe or dread before the numen;
b) the sense of being completely overpowered in the presence of such majesty;
c) an experience of intense, almost unbearable energy or urgency;
d) the sense that the numen is "wholly other";
e) a fascination or with or attraction to the numen, and rapture upon contact with it."

This one is a little confusing. I do have physical experiences that make me feel almost supernatural, but I'm not sure I understand exactly what is meant by the numinous. I have felt emotionally rewarded when I've been able to help someone solve a problem of their own. We have some amazing brain chemicals that can make us feel at peace, physically overwhelmed with joy or intense energy, but I'm not sure if that is what the author is describing here. Imo, all of these things are due to our complex brains and the neurotransmitters sending signals.

I'd like a theist to give his or her own interpretation of religious experience and tell me why my experiences as an atheist aren't pretty much the same thing, other than my not supposing they are related to a god or religion. I'd like to know if other atheists experience some of the above. I'm rather convinced that which religious people refer to as "religious experiences" are just common natural occurrences, that most of us have at one time or another in our lives. Explain to me why I'm wrong. If you managed to read my long OP, thanks for taking the time.

Of course they are. We aren't different species. We have, like, slightly different philosophies. People make way too much of religious differences.

 

[southernhybrid]

Of course they are. We aren't different species. We have, like, slightly different philosophies. People make way too much of religious differences.

I tend to agree with you, but you are not a fundamentalist, or evangelical. I've never had issues with liberal theists. Living in the Bible Belt sometimes makes it very difficult to not make to much of religious differences. When you are told that you're hell bound or are often judged harshly for being an atheist, it can make one bitter or frustrated. I usually have a sense of humor about these things but there have been times when I wanted to lash out at the other person. I could give you plenty of examples, but I don't want to derail my own OP.

So, have you had any of these experiences yourself? Do you equate them with religion? Or do you consider them natural experiences?

 

[southernhybrid]

Thanks for an interesting read. When I was about ten I had an experience that fit under the first category, "Interpretive Experiences," as further explained in the link:

- Some people connect paranormal experiences that have no specific religious content as being religious. One woman went to a movie with her husband, leaving her baby in the care of a sitter. When she got to the movie, she felt very uneasy and smelled burning. She went home, and saw that the baby-sitter had fallen asleep, dropped a cigarette, and the house was on fire. Both baby and sitter were saved, and the woman ascribed this to God's intervention.

That is, I experienced what I took to be a paranormal experience. The event seemed so striking to me that it literally gave me goose bumps and took my breath away when it occurred..

Even at the time I didn't ascribe this experience to God, but rather sort of kept it in my mind as I grew, as a kind of check to excessive rationalism. Remember, I would tell myself, there are things in this universe that can't be explained by science. When I was a teenager I became fascinated by Dunne's An Experiment With Time, which described events which seemed to parallel mine and which posited a quasi-scientific theory to explain them.

How much this view impacted my later mental development I don't know, even though as I matured and gained experience and saw many coincidences in life, the memory of my own "event" lost most of its power over my thinking. However I can see how if I had been raised more religiously the experience could very easily seemed like a confirmation of God's existence, or at the very least of some kind of cosmic force that transcended "mere" human physics.

Thanks for sharing that. I almost forgot that once when my husband and I were dating, he rushed us out of a bar where we had been listening to live music. He told me he had a feeling that something bad was going to happen. Later we learned that there had been a fire in the place, shortly after we left. I don't think anyone was injured, but it did make me wonder what gave him that feeling that we needed to leave.

I would guess that there was something that my husband noticed that he wasn't fully aware of, like maybe a weird smell. I do think we sometimes sense danger in very subtle ways, and perhaps religious people sometimes think these things are acts of a god. There are so many things that we still don't understand about our brains.


I also had a repetitive dream about an young child falling from a tall height. Several months later my infant son fell from a second story window. At first, I wondered if the dream was some kind of warning. Considering that my sister was in the room when my son fell and the dream didn't help prevent the fall, I decided it was just a coincidence, and was probably due to the stress and anxiety that I was experiencing at that time in my young life. ( my son recovered from the fall if you didn't read the other post where I mentioned this )

From my casual reading of neurology, it seems that dreams have no useful purpose and are probably just related to isolated thoughts. For example, I saw a friend last week who has a dog that can be very annoying. I kept pushing her away and telling her "no", when she tried to lick me. Last night I had a dream about a large, sad looking dog that kept begging me for attention.

There are still many people who believe that dreams have significant meaning. I think that's nonsense.

 

[Keith&Co.]

In Stephen King's book, The Body, there's one scene where the boys are walking along a railroad and a train comes up behind them. The narrator explains that he had his one and only psychic experience, then. He knew that a train was coming, first, then knelt down to touch the rails and feel the evidence of an approaching train.

I was really struck by that scene for some reason. I brought it up for discussion at school and a friend of mine said, "No. He meant that JESUS told him a train was coming."

I argued. I had read a lot of fantasy by then, and felt that within a novel, the author commands reality. If King wanted it to be Jesus, he'd have said Jesus. My friend was insistent, though, because Jesus is real, psychic powers are not. But that was also the year I read Lord of the Rings, and, like, dude! Wizards! It doesn't have to be real, it's in a fucking book!

But Jay didn't like to read fiction that didn't bolster his views of reality...

 

[poster]

There are still many people who believe that dreams have significant meaning. I think that's nonsense.

I think some dreams animate our emotions and allow for self-reflection/examination of our attitudes.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I suspect that intuitive people are more receptive to or comfortable with religious explanations for what I'd call transcendent experiences.

I don't see anything wrong with e.g. characterizing anger saying that an "angry spirit" has entered me. Saying that requires no need to argue for materiality, location, appearance, behavior etc., the experience and revelation are justification enough.

They are holistic explanations that satisfy an emotional need, just as data or factual explanations fulfill the emotional needs of sensing people.

 

[Politesse]

Of course they are. We aren't different species. We have, like, slightly different philosophies. People make way too much of religious differences.

I tend to agree with you, but you are not a fundamentalist, or evangelical. I've never had issues with liberal theists. Living in the Bible Belt sometimes makes it very difficult to not make to much of religious differences. When you are told that you're hell bound or are often judged harshly for being an atheist, it can make one bitter or frustrated. I usually have a sense of humor about these things but there have been times when I wanted to lash out at the other person. I could give you plenty of examples, but I don't want to derail my own OP.

So, have you had any of these experiences yourself? Do you equate them with religion? Or do you consider them natural experiences?

Sure. All of the above, I think. And I might throw in a category of ecstatic experiences, ie, the feeling of traveling or being outside of one's body, in another realm, etc. I do see most of these experiences in a spiritual light and do not see this as non-"natural", though my approach is more phenomenological than ontological if you know what I mean. I see these experiences from culture to culture and think, I know that the phenomenon is a real one if is inter-subjective on this level. But I can only feel that I have a sense of what it means, really. Interpretations are not universal, and I acknowledge our lack of contextual knowledge for understanding the numinous. I think for any human to truly understand our place in the universe, we would need to be able to "pan out" in a way that the limitations of mortal experience simply do not allow one to do.

 

[Politesse]

I suspect that intuitive people are more receptive to or comfortable with religious explanations for what I'd call transcendent experiences.

I don't see anything wrong with e.g. characterizing anger saying that an "angry spirit" has entered me. Saying that requires no need to argue for materiality, location, appearance, behavior etc., the experience and revelation are justification enough.

They are holistic explanations that satisfy an emotional need, just as data or factual explanations fulfill the emotional needs of sensing people.

Aha! Are you a Meyers-Briggs fan?

 

[Horatio Parker]

I suspect that intuitive people are more receptive to or comfortable with religious explanations for what I'd call transcendent experiences.

I don't see anything wrong with e.g. characterizing anger saying that an "angry spirit" has entered me. Saying that requires no need to argue for materiality, location, appearance, behavior etc., the experience and revelation are justification enough.

They are holistic explanations that satisfy an emotional need, just as data or factual explanations fulfill the emotional needs of sensing people.

Aha! Are you a Meyers-Briggs fan?

Yes. And I have the matching teacups.

Seriously, not particularly, tho the divide makes sense to me. If that makes me a fan, then I am.

 

[southernhybrid]

Of course they are. We aren't different species. We have, like, slightly different philosophies. People make way too much of religious differences.

I tend to agree with you, but you are not a fundamentalist, or evangelical. I've never had issues with liberal theists. Living in the Bible Belt sometimes makes it very difficult to not make to much of religious differences. When you are told that you're hell bound or are often judged harshly for being an atheist, it can make one bitter or frustrated. I usually have a sense of humor about these things but there have been times when I wanted to lash out at the other person. I could give you plenty of examples, but I don't want to derail my own OP.

So, have you had any of these experiences yourself? Do you equate them with religion? Or do you consider them natural experiences?

Sure. All of the above, I think. And I might throw in a category of ecstatic experiences, ie, the feeling of traveling or being outside of one's body, in another realm, etc. I do see most of these experiences in a spiritual light and do not see this as non-"natural", though my approach is more phenomenological than ontological if you know what I mean. I see these experiences from culture to culture and think, I know that the phenomenon is a real one if is inter-subjective on this level. But I can only feel that I have a sense of what it means, really. Interpretations are not universal, and I acknowledge our lack of contextual knowledge for understanding the numinous. I think for any human to truly understand our place in the universe, we would need to be able to "pan out" in a way that the limitations of mortal experience simply do not allow one to do.

No, I really don't know what you mean. I wasn't even familiar with the term numinous. When I read a little about it, it sounded like BS to me, but that's how we atheists are. I've had some ecstatic physical experiences but they only happen during sex. I'm serious. I don't honestly think that my husband and I exchange neurotransmitters when we're experiencing physical pleasure, but that's the only way I know how to describe it. It's heaven on earth, to be sure.

Have you ever read much of Frans de Waal's writings? I think he described some behavior by a troupe of apes that reminded me of religious ritual. I gave that book away but it made me think that our "spiritual" side, for lack of a better word, is something that probably evolved and may be shared by other primates, at least to a lesser extent. I've read a lot more about the culture of other apes. I find them more interesting than humans. I think the book I'm referring to is "The Ape and the Sushi Master." Something like that. It's about the cultures of non human primates.

 

[Sarpedon]

Back when I was religious, I felt almost a compulsion to interpret unusual (or even very usual) events in a religious way. It was almost like peer pressure.

Nowadays, while I always look for a rational explaination of things, I don't feel compelled to explain everything in this way. I am content that sometimes things happen that cannot be fathomed.

 

[Politesse]

Sure. All of the above, I think. And I might throw in a category of ecstatic experiences, ie, the feeling of traveling or being outside of one's body, in another realm, etc. I do see most of these experiences in a spiritual light and do not see this as non-"natural", though my approach is more phenomenological than ontological if you know what I mean. I see these experiences from culture to culture and think, I know that the phenomenon is a real one if is inter-subjective on this level. But I can only feel that I have a sense of what it means, really. Interpretations are not universal, and I acknowledge our lack of contextual knowledge for understanding the numinous. I think for any human to truly understand our place in the universe, we would need to be able to "pan out" in a way that the limitations of mortal experience simply do not allow one to do.

No, I really don't know what you mean. I wasn't even familiar with the term numinous. When I read a little about it, it sounded like BS to me, but that's how we atheists are. I've had some ecstatic physical experiences but they only happen during sex. I'm serious. I don't honestly think that my husband and I exchange neurotransmitters when we're experiencing physical pleasure, but that's the only way I know how to describe it. It's heaven on earth, to be sure.

Have you ever read much of Frans de Waal's writings? I think he described some behavior by a troupe of apes that reminded me of religious ritual. I gave that book away but it made me think that our "spiritual" side, for lack of a better word, is something that probably evolved and may be shared by other primates, at least to a lesser extent. I've read a lot more about the culture of other apes. I find them more interesting than humans. I think the book I'm referring to is "The Ape and the Sushi Master." Something like that. It's about the cultures of non human primates.

Well, you aren't alone in this, many people report transcendent experiences during sex; indeed, the idea that tantric energy is generated through sex (among other things) in Eastern thought is probably a reflection of this more somatic truth. I am deeply fond of gorillas, orangutans, and most monkeys; the rest of the family I can take or leave.

 

[Jobar]

I'll offer something I posted to a Secular Cafe thread, Mysticism, etc., from 2015.

Since you ask about my own personal experience... for me, it wasn't a sudden burst or vision. It was over the course of a couple of years, 1975-77, or a bit more.

I was studying Physics at Ga. Tech- about as far from a hotbed of Eastern mysticism as you can get, I think. But I was reading a lot of philosophy, and thinking a lot about religion; and I had just started smoking pot. Later I did a fair lot of hallucinogens. Mighty big changes, of all sorts, for a Georgia farm boy, yes?

Thinking back, one big influence was a roommate (who I really didn't like at all, actually; different interests, different background, different personality type) I had in my freshman year, who was a huge fan of 'progressive' rock, which was all the rage at the time. Yes, Moody Blues, Genesis, ELP- stuff I had never been exposed to. (I really was raised on a family-run dairy farm, worked practically every waking moment when I wasn't in school- and my father was an ex-marine who couldn't stand rock'n'roll. So I was quite the naif when I went off to Tech in the fall of 1973.)

Listening to the lyrics of my roommate's records, I remember thinking that they were talking about something that was quite unknown to me; reminiscent of religion, somehow, but also not. It intrigued me; I slowly came to realize that some of it was about drug experiences, but not by any means all of it. So I started studying it- along with all the other stuff I had to study that was poured on my cringing young head.

I suppose that if there was a main breakthrough moment, it was sometime in the spring of 1975, when I took my first formal philosophy course, and also first encountered in a serious way the paradoxes of quantum mechanics. I recall reading a lot of the writings of Erwin Schrodinger, on the wave/particle duality, and on the philosophical conclusions he drew from that. I also began searching out books on duality and monism.

I first read Watts in my second philo course, taught by the same professor as that first course- Dr. Jon J. Johnston, Doctor of Philosophy, University of London. I got to where any course he taught, I'd sign up for it- as it worked out I got enough credits to qualify for a minor in Philosophy, by the time I graduated.

Somewhere in there I started writing poetry. Lots of poetry. I still have all of it- for a while I thought about trying to publish. (Now, I'm glad I never did; most of it is frankly crap, and I am hard pressed to find more than the occasional stanza that's not embarrassing!) But that period marks a sea change in the way I viewed the world; I felt that what was once opaque and mysterious to me was becoming understandable.

I'll offer one of the earliest bits of poetry which I can post without blushing- too much.
Blown-up stars' remains rush in
Contracting masses start to spin
Planets, built from lightest gases
Dust motes in expanding vastness
Culminates in me.
Intricacy.
A mind, beholder of it all
Exalting dew drop
Blank beige wall
Going to knowing things unguessed
Man as Earth as Star expressed.

From the Tao Te Ching-
Before one learns the Tao, mountains and trees are only mountains and trees.
While one is learning the Tao, mountains and trees are no longer mountains and trees.
When one has learned the Tao, mountains and trees are mountains and trees.

I went through all that. For a while everything I saw seemed imbued with holy fire, and I freaked out a number of my family and friends. I never started preaching on street corners, but I did think about it! There were times when I felt so utterly exalted that I could scarcely breathe- and not just the times I did LSD or psilocybin, either!

By the time I graduated from Tech, I was mostly down from that trip, and had pretty much ceased freaking people out.

But I still wrote a lot of poetry and read about philosophy, religion, psychology, and science voraciously, for many years- all through my young manhood.

 

[steve_bank]

Good topic with some substance and relevance.

An old Tavis Smiley show had a neuro scintist investigating religious experience. He did brain scans on people contemplating god and the like.

Part of his control group not by desigtn contained atheist scintisrs.

Inadvertently he discovered the scientists contemplating cosmic thoughts lit up the same area of the brain as the religious.

To make a long story short he concluded the scintists and the religious had the same psycho-physical experience.

It makes sense to me. I believe it is not what you believe but how you believe it. Our brains are all pretty much the same. The differnce is what we attribute feelings to. For the religious it is god. Nothing else makes sense to me. We all have a spritual/mystical component to out minds. A sense of the 'divine' as it is called. I felt it the fitst time I drove cross country in the 70s. Out on the Kansas flalands , green to the horizon. At night in Montana in the middle of nowhere on a clear night. Back in the 70s I would have said 'cosmuic,,man'.

Those were the days.

 

[southernhybrid]

Some of you are making me wish that I used drugs in the 70s, but I was straight as an arrow back then. I've never tried anything stronger than weed and that wasn't until I was 30. I don't regret that anymore than I regret giving up Jesus. He never even bothered to return my calls. Men!

 

[rousseau]

These days I notice that even the secular people I know can often be shrouded in their own minds and beliefs. And so I agree with steve_bank's post above, that most of us think similarly, but attribute the feeling to different causes. Literal belief in God isn't as important as the underlying mechanics of what makes one human.

Once religion falls away, the target of our absolutism and tribalism falls on something else: feminism, veganism, humanism.. you name it. The transcendent just becomes tied to the material rather than the meta-physical.

For me, I've had my share for experiences, but time and study has turned most of it into artifacts of my imagination. These days the closest thing I get to transcendent experience is when the hard, material things I do result in a better life for me, my partner, and my family.

 

[steve_bank]

Some of you are making me wish that I used drugs in the 70s, but I was straight as an arrow back then. I've never tried anything stronger than weed and that wasn't until I was 30. I don't regret that anymore than I regret giving up Jesus. He never even bothered to return my calls. Men!

Drugs for me was a waste of time. I would never suggest that anyone use drugs. For me living and exploting and learning was a far greter experince than escapist drugs.

 

[steve_bank]

These days I notice that even the secular people I know can often be shrouded in their own minds and beliefs. And so I agree with steve_bank's post above, that most of us think similarly, but attribute the feeling to different causes. Literal belief in God isn't as important as the underlying mechanics of what makes one human.

Once religion falls away, the target of our absolutism and tribalism falls on something else: feminism, veganism, humanism.. you name it. The transcendent just becomes tied to the material rather than the meta-physical.

For me, I've had my share for experiences, but time and study has turned most of it into artifacts of my imagination. These days the closest thing I get to transcendent experience is when the hard, material things I do result in a better life for me, my partner, and my family.

The problem is what relaces religion as a social glue. We can end up with far worse, witness a leader like Trump and his followers.

In the Soviet Union it was a Stalin personality cult. Same in NK.

When the SU fell, religion sprang back. It is underground in NK despite harsh punishment. China could not eliminate religion so it opted to control it.

There is a human need for common ritual and belonging.