Socialism Is Always Doomed to Fail

[untermensche]

What is the last thing a majority of Americans voted for?

And some idiot in this thread said slavery existed because of a majority vote.

Another idiot claimed the work of Hitler was the work of a majority.

 

[arkirk]

 No true Scotsman

That is not a rebuttal of either me or Untermensche. That is nothing but refusing to deal with the issues at hand....an absent, or overridden or inappropriate constitution. The U.S. constitution from its outset was not a humanistic document. It concerned itself with how many votes a slave owner would get for the slaves he owned among other non humanistic causes. It underwent some modification for awhile (Bill of Rights), but this too had flaws in need of correction. As time has passed the part of the constitution that protected the rights of common citizens has shrunk and nearly all of the Bill of Rights has been overturned, with the usual method of overturning constitutions...declaring some sort of emergency. Right now we have a person trying to trash our entire government for his billionaire friends and himself. Untermensche was right we do not have a functioning democracy. A functional humane democracy needs clear rules to limit abridgment of human rights and to guarantee a fair hearing of issues before they are voted upon.

 

[arkirk]

What is the last thing a majority of Americans voted for?

And some idiot in this thread said slavery existed because of a majority vote.

Another idiot claimed the work of Hitler was the work of a majority.

For everyone's information from Ballotpedia, the total number of votes cast for President was...136,452,150.........clearly NOT A MAJORITY OF 300 MILLION!

 

[untermensche]

Those that oppose democracy want some kind of dictatorship.

There is nothing else.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Those that oppose democracy want some kind of dictatorship.

There is nothing else.

Your inability to defend the concept of democracy against tough questions makes me question the sincerity of your devotion to democracy.

Of course it is quite evident that you want to be a dictator, but a friendly one as long as the masses vote the way you tell them to vote.

 

[untermensche]

Those that oppose democracy want some kind of dictatorship.

There is nothing else.

Your inability to defend the concept of democracy against tough questions makes me question the sincerity of your devotion to democracy.

Of course it is quite evident that you want to be a dictator, but a friendly one as long as the masses vote the way you tell them to vote.

You do not have tough questions.

You invent absurd off the wall scenarios and pretend they are true.

Human freedoms are expanding even in the crappy US democracy. Imagine if it were democracy all the way.

The danger always has been and always will be some minority looking to make gains off the rest by using force of some kind to keep the majority in line.

Economic force is a force.

 

[arkirk]

Those that oppose democracy want some kind of dictatorship.

There is nothing else.

Your inability to defend the concept of democracy against tough questions makes me question the sincerity of your devotion to democracy.

Of course it is quite evident that you want to be a dictator, but a friendly one as long as the masses vote the way you tell them to vote.

Be careful Jason! Your little tap dance is strangely similar to that one that Loren does. You claim to be supportive of "rights" for yourself and possibly some of the other white people but discount certain fractions of society to being not worthy of consideration. You actually are even doing that to Untermensche and your arguments are full of straw men. You need to ask yourself how to obtain peace and prosperity for all of us, not just some who remain permanently out of our sight and beyond democratic control.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Those that oppose democracy want some kind of dictatorship.

There is nothing else.

Your inability to defend the concept of democracy against tough questions makes me question the sincerity of your devotion to democracy.

Of course it is quite evident that you want to be a dictator, but a friendly one as long as the masses vote the way you tell them to vote.

Be careful Jason! Your little tap dance is strangely similar to that one that Loren does. You claim to be supportive of "rights" for yourself and possibly some of the other white people but discount certain fractions of society to being not worthy of consideration. You actually are even doing that to Untermensche and your arguments are full of straw men. You need to ask yourself how to obtain peace and prosperity for all of us, not just some who remain permanently out of our sight and beyond democratic control.

I wonder who you are calling "white", since it is public knowledge around here that I am tinted a bit more brown than that.

My question about the majority voting to oppress the minority is the hard question he is ducking, since he somehow believes just simply can't happen. If it does happen, then it didn't happen. If it really does happen, then it still didn't happen. If you show him examples, he declares that any and all examples are not True Scotsman - which is why referencing the Wikipedia page is actually a refutation of Unter. So since it never happened, my question is something I invented with no basis in reality.

Unter is so concerned about the minority dictating to the majority that he ignores the real possibility of the majority oppressing the minority. I have consistently opposed both forms of oppression, and asked Unter his solution to the second. He doesn't have one. If you ask him that question consistently enough he says you want a dictatorship and don't understand democracy.

So I need to be careful because I did to him what he did to me. Uh-huh. Just call me white and write me off.

 

[arkirk]

Be careful Jason! Your little tap dance is strangely similar to that one that Loren does. You claim to be supportive of "rights" for yourself and possibly some of the other white people but discount certain fractions of society to being not worthy of consideration. You actually are even doing that to Untermensche and your arguments are full of straw men. You need to ask yourself how to obtain peace and prosperity for all of us, not just some who remain permanently out of our sight and beyond democratic control.

I wonder who you are calling "white", since it is public knowledge around here that I am tinted a bit more brown than that.

My question about the majority voting to oppress the minority is the hard question he is ducking, since he somehow believes just simply can't happen. If it does happen, then it didn't happen. If it really does happen, then it still didn't happen. If you show him examples, he declares that any and all examples are not True Scotsman - which is why referencing the Wikipedia page is actually a refutation of Unter. So since it never happened, my question is something I invented with no basis in reality.

Unter is so concerned about the minority dictating to the majority that he ignores the real possibility of the majority oppressing the minority. I have consistently opposed both forms of oppression, and asked Unter his solution to the second. He doesn't have one. If you ask him that question consistently enough he says you want a dictatorship and don't understand democracy.

So I need to be careful because I did to him what he did to me. Uh-huh. Just call me white and write me off.

You don't have to be physically white to do the establishment's work for them. I am telling you to be careful and don't get too puffed up with ideological ego. We all exist at the forbearance of others. What Trump is not understanding is that he too is being tolerated, not vindicated, and if he gets much worse he will no longer be tolerated and everything he tries will be a failure. Those with great economic power have the power to destroy the lives of others and do so with complete confidence that they are within the law. Your color does not concern me. I have never let anybody here know what my color was. Justice does not have a color.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Now for reasons unknown you are bringing Trump into this and telling me that I'm "acting white".

The point is, I'm asking Unter (not Trump) about the majority oppressing the minority. Nothing in your response has anything to do with me asking Unter that question, or Unter insisting that in spite of all the evidence it has never happened.

 

[arkirk]

Now for reasons unknown you are bringing Trump into this and telling me that I'm "acting white".

The point is, I'm asking Unter (not Trump) about the majority oppressing the minority. Nothing in your response has anything to do with me asking Unter that question, or Unter insisting that in spite of all the evidence it has never happened.

Don't try to smear Untermensche with this fatuous argument. What he is saying is that when minorities are severely impacted it is always at the bidding and due to the propaganda of a smaller than majority group. What we experience is information being hidden from us as "state secrets" that if you knew what that information was, you would have a different understanding of reality. In other words our wars are started by a system of lies. The same is true with race, gender, and political discrimination. Trump lies about mexicans in general being rapists, thieves and murderers. He is a flat out liar. Can't you understand that or are you beyond understanding. If a majority of the people accept the lies or at least do not oppose them, can you really call that a democratic vote? It may just be that many of us are kept too ignorant to know to oppose these maniacs. Be careful with all your crowing and gesticulating that you do not find yourself on the wrong side of reality. Continually accepting lies, one's judgment becomes impoverished. That is a lot of what is wrong with America today. Don't be part of it.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

IF the majority is swayed by a lie, it is STILL the majority taking an action that oppresses the minority. Your IF doesn't change the basic question that Unter is refusing to answer and you appear to be trying to protect him from.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

 No true Scotsman

There are plenty of true Scottsmen.

The move away from slavery.

The granting of the right to vote to women.

The Civil Rights Bill of 1964.

A lot of good democratic activity.

But the work of evil minded minority factions must continually be overcome through the work of the majority.

True Scotsmen do what you want.

Thus what you really want is control, not freedom. Freedom includes the freedom to do something else.

 

[untermensche]

 No true Scotsman

There are plenty of true Scottsmen.

The move away from slavery.

The granting of the right to vote to women.

The Civil Rights Bill of 1964.

A lot of good democratic activity.

But the work of evil minded minority factions must continually be overcome through the work of the majority.

True Scotsmen do what you want.

Thus what you really want is control, not freedom. Freedom includes the freedom to do something else.

How exactly would I gain control by giving control to a democratic majority?

 

[untermensche]

Now for reasons unknown you are bringing Trump into this and telling me that I'm "acting white".

The point is, I'm asking Unter (not Trump) about the majority oppressing the minority. Nothing in your response has anything to do with me asking Unter that question, or Unter insisting that in spite of all the evidence it has never happened.

You show me the aftereffects of centuries of slavery and say it is because of a majority.

You show me things like anti-homosexual attitudes that have existed for many centuries.

These things arose because a minority inflicted them upon us. And lasted because a minority of dictators had control.

Democracy does not erase the past.

It enables the future to get better. In sputters and starts. Not on a magic carpet.

But minorities of great economic power are presently making the future bleak.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

When the majority votes to oppress the minority, which it sometimes does what is your solution?

 

[untermensche]

When the majority votes to oppress the minority, which it sometimes does what is your solution?

In what kind of democracy?

Is it a real democracy all the way down to the workplace?

Or an oligarchy with democratic trappings where economic entities, huge centers of wealth, are run by dictators?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

When the majority votes to oppress the minority, which it sometimes does what is your solution?

In what kind of democracy?

Is it a real democracy all the way down to the workplace?

Or an oligarchy with democratic trappings where economic entities, huge centers of wealth, are run by dictators?

Take your definition, take out "and it never does something I don't like." Sure, have it go all the way down to the workplace if you want.

When the majority takes an action to oppress the minority, which majorities sometimes do, what is your proposed solution? Before you say it, a majority could repeal the Bill of Rights.

 

[untermensche]

That is called a dodge.

You want to talk about oligarchy with a few democratic trappings and call it democracy.

 

[crispy]

And part of the reason they fail so horrifically is that an authoritarian system with a very powerful central government is always necessary to enforce the collectivization or social ownership since it is counter to human nature. Later, such unchecked power inevitably leads to corruption and looting as those in power realize they can get away with it and must give goodies to key allies (like the military) to maintain that power.

All we need is an AI for this and were set then.