Moral dilemna

[Speakpigeon]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Well, I'm not any egoistic or mean character, on the contrary, but I'm somewhat pessimistic as to the human race. I see people for what they are. Politicians are corrupt and they all came initially from the people so most people are really like the politicians they criticise all the time. Most would be worse if put in charge. It's clear to me people are mostly bad and often very bad. History unfortunately provides more evidence that I could suffer to review. My heart bleeds for the countless victims and yet I know they would have committed similar crimes given the right circumstances. It's really all very sad. So, why go public with my discovery only to help bad people have a better life? Doesn't make sense to me.

Any advice?
EB

 

[phands]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Well, I'm not any egoistic or mean character, on the contrary, but I'm somewhat pessimistic as to the human race. I see people for what they are. Politicians are corrupt and they all came initially from the people so most people are really like the politicians they criticise all the time. Most would be worse if put in charge. It's clear to me people are mostly bad and often very bad. History unfortunately provides more evidence that I could suffer to review. My heart bleeds for the countless victims and yet I know they would have committed similar crimes given the right circumstances. It's really all very sad. So, why go public with my discovery only to help bad people have a better life? Doesn't make sense to me.

Any advice?
EB

Go public. Improving the well-being of ALL humans is a good thing.

 

[Lion IRC]

"I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?"

Gee. I dunno. That's a really tough one.

 

[Juma]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Well, I'm not any egoistic or mean character, on the contrary, but I'm somewhat pessimistic as to the human race. I see people for what they are. Politicians are corrupt and they all came initially from the people so most people are really like the politicians they criticise all the time. Most would be worse if put in charge. It's clear to me people are mostly bad and often very bad. History unfortunately provides more evidence that I could suffer to review. My heart bleeds for the countless victims and yet I know they would have committed similar crimes given the right circumstances. It's really all very sad. So, why go public with my discovery only to help bad people have a better life? Doesn't make sense to me.

Any advice?
EB

You seem very sinister even contemplating that you do not want to risk to make life better for bad people..
But that fits with the amount of arrogance you normally show here.

 

[Speakpigeon]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Well, I'm not any egoistic or mean character, on the contrary, but I'm somewhat pessimistic as to the human race. I see people for what they are. Politicians are corrupt and they all came initially from the people so most people are really like the politicians they criticise all the time. Most would be worse if put in charge. It's clear to me people are mostly bad and often very bad. History unfortunately provides more evidence that I could suffer to review. My heart bleeds for the countless victims and yet I know they would have committed similar crimes given the right circumstances. It's really all very sad. So, why go public with my discovery only to help bad people have a better life? Doesn't make sense to me.

Any advice?
EB

Go public. Improving the well-being of ALL humans is a good thing.

Your answer unfortunately just confirms the impression I have of most people.
EB

- - - Updated - - -

"I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?"

Gee. I dunno. That's a really tough one.

You must be smart enough but you're not in this case. That's what your answer suggests, anyway, unfortunately.

Try again?
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

You seem very sinister even contemplating that you do not want to risk to make life better for bad people..

You misunderstood here. I can't be bothered. That's very different.

We all have limited resources. You can't fault me for sparing my own whenever I feel there's no good reason for the expense.

But that fits with the amount of arrogance you normally show here.

You know, that could very well hurt, this.

Still, at least you are not arrogant, or at least not arrogant enough to pretend you have answered the OP.

You're just reacting, like a human being. Let me hug you.
EB

 

[fast]

It's kind of hard to muster the ambition to help when the target of your help is the epitome of all that is vile.

Maybe there's a connection between their well being and their thirst for corruption. Yes, there's a chance your efforts will be in vain and leave our fellow co-inhabitants as a stronger more vibrant group of wrong-doers to bask in the wake of their daily evil deeds. But, then again, there's a chance you can hamper their thirst and actually make for a better world.

And people think I'm a borderline genius. Nothing borderline about it. Help the bad, and be bothered to do so because caring is a most worthy trait to have. If by chance helping everyone's well being becomes the catalyst for bringing forth additional harm upon this old world, then help them some more, and again and again until things get better or worst still.

 

[Jobar]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Probably any such 'method' would prove immensely profitable to the individual who discovers it. What, you just don't want to be rich?

 

[Bomb#20]

I see people for what they are. ... It's clear to me people are mostly bad and often very bad.

Grade on the curve.

You're not seeing people for what they are; you're seeing being born human as original sin. Remember we aren't fallen angels, but risen apes. It took seventy-odd million years for us to evolve this far morally, from our amoral tree shrew ancestors, so if you're disappointed in the degree of progress, how fast do you think our morals should have been evolving? Point being, it wouldn't change anything if we were twice as good now -- it would just mean our morals were evolving twice as fast, so we'd just have had this same conversation thirty-five million years ago. Condemning the human race wholesale makes no sense except from a creationist perspective. So grade on the curve. The above-average people deserve your help.

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

No, of course not. The planet's overloaded with fools who'll just think it's a monstrous plan by their outgroup to oppress their ingroup and they'll obstruct you at every turn until you go mad from frustration. You should just go ahead and implement your new method, and improve the well-being of all humans on this planet, secretly. Become a part of the vast dark shadowy cabal implicated in a sinister conspiracy to make life better.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Do you have the resources to implement the method without going public?

 

[Speakpigeon]

It's kind of hard to muster the ambition to help when the target of your help is the epitome of all that is vile.

Maybe there's a connection between their well being and their thirst for corruption. Yes, there's a chance your efforts will be in vain and leave our fellow co-inhabitants as a stronger more vibrant group of wrong-doers to bask in the wake of their daily evil deeds. But, then again, there's a chance you can hamper their thirst and actually make for a better world.

The evidence seems too hopelessly conflicting, though. You could argue that modern day Britain must be a far better place to live in than prehistoric Britannia. And then again you could point at Nazi Germany and the Holocaust to get a very different perspective on modernity and civilisation. And I could go on and on and on.

And people think I'm a borderline genius. Nothing borderline about it. Help the bad, and be bothered to do so because caring is a most worthy trait to have. If by chance helping everyone's well being becomes the catalyst for bringing forth additional harm upon this old world, then help them some more, and again and again until things get better or worst still.

Sisyphus?

The struggle itself is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy...

In The Myth of Sisyphus, Albert Camus introduces his philosophy of the absurd, man's futile search for meaning, unity, and clarity in the face of an unintelligible world devoid of God and eternal truths or values. The final chapter compares the absurdity of man's life with the situation of Sisyphus, a figure of Greek mythology who was condemned to repeat forever the same meaningless task of pushing a boulder up a mountain, only to see it roll down again. The essay concludes, "The struggle itself is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

I'm not happy myself.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Probably any such 'method' would prove immensely profitable to the individual who discovers it. What, you just don't want to be rich?

That's much better. At least it's a rational argument.

But I'm not motivated by money, sorry. I'm too old to fancy getting rich and too sensible to think getting rich would be a good idea. And beside, I could keep it to myself and use it to make just the money I might need, and nothing more. Would that be OK, do you think?
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

I see people for what they are. ... It's clear to me people are mostly bad and often very bad.

Grade on the curve.

You're not seeing people for what they are; you're seeing being born human as original sin. Remember we aren't fallen angels, but risen apes. It took seventy-odd million years for us to evolve this far morally, from our amoral tree shrew ancestors, so if you're disappointed in the degree of progress, how fast do you think our morals should have been evolving? Point being, it wouldn't change anything if we were twice as good now -- it would just mean our morals were evolving twice as fast, so we'd just have had this same conversation thirty-five million years ago. Condemning the human race wholesale makes no sense except from a creationist perspective. So grade on the curve. The above-average people deserve your help.

Nah, if anything, I look at people as if they were apes and I would agree that's fundamentally what they are. But risen apes? Whoa, now that's some Biblical shit! Conceptually, I like this book from David Deutsch, "The beginning of infinity", where he argues that our capacity for knowledge opens the way for infinity. There's literally no limit to what humans could achieve. And I broadly agree. Where I disagree, it's again me being rather pessimistic... Sure, we could in principle but we won't in practice, I don't think. So Risen Angels? In principle, we could be apes tending towards God. Never actually getting there but coming ever closer to it. So, yeah, Risen Angels, but only in principle. In practice, we'll have a stupid road accident somewhere along the road to infinity and that will be that.

And I don't condemn the human race. I would like them to succeed. But not at any price. Just tell me how to do it.

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

No, of course not. The planet's overloaded with fools who'll just think it's a monstrous plan by their outgroup to oppress their ingroup and they'll obstruct you at every turn until you go mad from frustration. You should just go ahead and implement your new method, and improve the well-being of all humans on this planet, secretly. Become a part of the vast dark shadowy cabal implicated in a sinister conspiracy to make life better.

Yeah, i could do that but I'm not arrogant enough to believe I could outsmart the FSB, the CIA, and Trump, or the French secret services for that matter. Especially Trump. I'd be dead meat before touching the ground.

Still, there may be something in that.

Good try, though.
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Do you have the resources to implement the method without going public?

Yes.

Good point.

Still, I have to point out that "going public" isn't really essential here. The problem is I don't feel motivated by the idea of helping people who will inevitably turn the benefits brought to them into a hopeless mess of good and bad things, just like modern humanity is now.

Having said that, I'm interested. So, please, go on and explain your angle.
EB

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Do you have the resources to implement the method without going public?

Yes.

Good point.

Still, I have to point out that "going public" isn't really essential here. The problem is I don't feel motivated by the idea of helping people who will inevitably turn the benefits brought to them into a hopeless mess of good and bad things, just like modern humanity is now.

Having said that, I'm interested. So, please, go on and explain your angle.
EB

I'm afraid I don't have anything clever. I was just thinking that if you have the resources to do it but going public would make the results less good, then it seems like a no brainer, unless perhaps it has too high a cost for you?
That said, you say that people "will inevitably turn the benefits brought to them into a hopeless mess of good and bad things". That seems unclear to me. Are you saying that if you go ahead, the result will not actually be a significant improvement in the well-being of all human beings of the planet? If so, then it seems to me you do not have the resources to implement it, at least not successfully. But let's not get tangled in semantic quibbles. What I intended to ask is this:

Suppose you go ahead. Would things get better for all, or at least most (surely not all) human beings on the planet, without an undue burden on those who don't benefit?

Side note: I replied thinking this was an interesting thought experiment, not that you actually were claiming to have such method. Now I'm not so sure. Could you clarify that, please?

 

[DrZoidberg]

I've discovered a new method to improve the well-being of all humans on this planet in a very significant way. Should I go public?

Well, I'm not any egoistic or mean character, on the contrary, but I'm somewhat pessimistic as to the human race. I see people for what they are. Politicians are corrupt and they all came initially from the people so most people are really like the politicians they criticise all the time. Most would be worse if put in charge. It's clear to me people are mostly bad and often very bad. History unfortunately provides more evidence that I could suffer to review. My heart bleeds for the countless victims and yet I know they would have committed similar crimes given the right circumstances. It's really all very sad. So, why go public with my discovery only to help bad people have a better life? Doesn't make sense to me.

Any advice?
EB

Go public and learn the hard way why it was a flawed idea. Since that's usually the case, that's probably what will happen. So there's nothing to lose either way

 

[fast]

Doesn't pessimism have more to do with probability than actuality? You can be spot on about how bad things have been and how bad things are, but the future isn't guaranteed, so pessimism should be trumped by hope.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Doesn't pessimism have more to do with probability than actuality? You can be spot on about how bad things have been and how bad things are, but the future isn't guaranteed, so pessimism should be trumped by hope.

All correct.

But then again, the past determines the present and therefore who you are, and who you are includes whether you are pessimist or hopeful, I guess.

Maybe you know how to develop our ability to hope against the evidence of bad probabilities?
EB

 

[Speakpigeon]

Go public and learn the hard way why it was a flawed idea. Since that's usually the case, that's probably what will happen.

That's hardly an encouragement to go for it.

So there's nothing to lose either way

That's what I don't know. If bad consequences should follow, I'll feel remorse and guilt for the rest of a now very miserable life.
EB

 

[DrZoidberg]

Go public and learn the hard way why it was a flawed idea. Since that's usually the case, that's probably what will happen.

That's hardly an encouragement to go for it.

I think it is. You don't know what will happen. But if you don't try, you'll never know. How often have you been in this situation in your life? This is a kind of opportunity you get once in a lifetime. It doesn't matter if you crash and burn. It'll still be worth it.

We often value people on just trying hard. Even failures in life are welcome into the cool circles if they tried hard enough.

I remember starting a company that crash and burned. When I gave up on it and went to find regular employment I was given a hell of a lot more money than I earned before I started my company. Just the fact that I had the balls to go for it and did my best to negotiate obstacles increased my value as a human being (in their eyes).

So there's nothing to lose either way

That's what I don't know. If bad consequences should follow, I'll feel remorse and guilt for the rest of a now very miserable life.
EB

Why? Everything that has en effect in the world has unintended consequences... that will hurt people. The factory put British weavers out of business. Their livelihood was taken away. They risked starvation. Yet, it was the first step towards industrialisation. If the queen would have listened to the Luddites, you and me, would very likely not be able to have this conversation on-line. No computers. No nothing of the modern world.