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What's Wrong With A Living Wage?

A word on why raising the wages of workers works

higher minimum wage doesn’t necessarily increase business costs. It draws more job applicants into the labor market, giving employers more choice of whom to hire. As a result, employers often get more reliable workers who remain longer – thereby saving employers at least as much money as they spend on higher wages.
Isn't this just another way of saying that increasing the minimum wage would make it harder for the less able workers to find jobs?

Basically the whole argument that increasing wages by itself is good for a company is saying that the people who run companies are incapable of seeing what is in their own interests. But perhaps it has the causation the wrong way round. If there are good workers around, then companies have to compete to keep them, and so will have to offer them higher wages, which only the more successful companies will be able to do. So of course we see that companies which offer higher wages to good employees are more successful.

But concluding that every company increasing their wages (which is what an increase in minimum wage would do), would lead to every company becoming more successful doesn't seem warranted. If it were really the case, everybody would be in favour of it. But as it is, the companies who lobby for an increase in minimum wage are always among the more successful ones - because they know that they are better able to absorb the increase than their competitors.
 
Here is a report on that signed there is a correlation.https://www2.bc.edu/~beauchaa/CrimeMW.pdf
that's based on a bias confirmation of your presumption that "employers" are these magical infallible entities and always pay exactly what should be paid, and that an increase in the minimum wage must necessarily be followed by a decrease in available positions.

you choose to blame minimum wage, i blame the greed of employers for cutting jobs for the sake of more profits.
 
In my never ending quest to argue with folks on the internet, I came across this gem tonight on Reddit while discussing the idea of a "living wage:"

You aren't supposed to be able to make a living off of literally any job.

I'm fairly certain that the entire idea of a "job" is "something that you're able to make a living doing," but apparently it turns out I'm wrong.


Is that what we've come to? You can have a job, but you shouldn't expect to make a living from that job?

Exactly. This is where white trash conservatism has taken us. We have no right to demand as a political goal, a fair wage for a full days honest labor. If a bad economy, run by Bush and the GOP raised unemployment to 10%, those who lost jobs are "takers"! Slash the food stamp program! Yep, this is what it boils down to.
 
no, the argument here is "that job" is worth 15 dollars an hour, and any implication that it's worth less than that is wrong.

IMO a "living wage" is enough per month for 1 person to afford the median average cost of lodging (rent + utilities), food, general life expenses (gas, phone, internet, car and health insurance), quality of life expenses (spending money for a night out here and there or the occasional trinket), and approximately 15-20% on top of whatever that total ends up being, with the intention being savings or optional extra expenses.

that is the minimum of what every full time work week is worth, and if an employer can't afford to pay their employees that much, they need to not be an employer - period.

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It isn't theory, it's what a business does. It takes in money and pays it's employees. If it doesn't take in enough money to cover the cost of paying someone, they won't.
and if it doesn't take in enough to pay its employees a living wage, it shouldn't exist as a business.

This argument is dubious because the list of what is part of the living wage is largely arbitrary, and yet you are claiming that employers who can't pay that much shouldn't exist.

So for example, you are including health insurance in your list, because the US does not provide that as a universal benefit. In the UK, this is provided, so wouldn't be on your list. So in the UK, the sort of employers who you think should exist include some which you think shouldn't exist in the US merely because of a benefit provided by government. Conversely, the US government does provide education to all its citizens (as does the UK government, of course). But if it didn't, you might include the cost of educating a child in the living wage - and suddenly a large number of employers who you currently think are OK, would no longer be OK - all because of something which is completely unrelated to the employer, the employee, or the work being done.
 
This argument is dubious
given the ridiculously stupid straw man arguments you present below this claim is pretty hilarious.

because the list of what is part of the living wage is largely arbitrary, and yet you are claiming that employers who can't pay that much shouldn't exist.
it's not arbitrary at all, and yes i am claiming that any employer that can't pay a reasonable living wage for a full time worker shouldn't exist.

So for example, you are including health insurance in your list, because the US does not provide that as a universal benefit. In the UK, this is provided, so wouldn't be on your list. So in the UK, the sort of employers who you think should exist include some which you think shouldn't exist in the US merely because of a benefit provided by government. Conversely, the US government does provide education to all its citizens (as does the UK government, of course).
that argument so retarded i don't even know to begin to address it.
while it's moderately insulting to even belittle myself and the idea of logic by formulating a reply, quite simply: if the US had universal health care, health wouldn't be included in the list. huh. fucking. duh.

But if it didn't, you might include the cost of educating a child in the living wage - and suddenly a large number of employers who you currently think are OK, would no longer be OK - all because of something which is completely unrelated to the employer, the employee, or the work being done.
you might, but i don't, so again - congratulations for presenting arguments that are so stupid as to be nigh incomprehensible on top of being straw men.
 
There is a concept that is foreign to capitalism because capitalism is just a small move from the feudalism and slavery that created it and that concept is called economic justice.

And the concept of economic justice is simple.

If two people are working at the same enterprise and one is well fed and one is hungry then the situation is unjust.

Economic justice doesn't mean that everybody should get the same. It means the first job of any economic enterprise is to take care of the basic needs of the people working in it. That is the reason for having them. The reason for having them is not so some can get very rich while others go hungry.
 
Or to put it another way, if an employee's labor is not worth that much, they need not be employed.
Is it better to just support people whose labor isn't worth a living wage with welfare? Or maybe just euthanize them since that can't hack it in the world?
 
Or to put it another way, if an employee's labor is not worth that much, they need not be employed.
Is it better to just support people whose labor isn't worth a living wage with welfare? Or maybe just euthanize them since that can't hack it in the world?
The direct cost of keeping them alive is probably less than the indirect costs of an euthanasia program: in addition to euthanasia itself, you'd need guards and police to round up the vctims, and to quell the protests, and there would be widespread corruption and fraud because people's lives would be on the line, and so on.
 
There is a concept that is foreign to capitalism because capitalism is just a small move from the feudalism and slavery that created it and that concept is called economic justice.

And the concept of economic justice is simple.

If two people are working at the same enterprise and one is well fed and one is hungry then the situation is unjust.

Economic justice doesn't mean that everybody should get the same. It means the first job of any economic enterprise is to take care of the basic needs of the people working in it. That is the reason for having them. The reason for having them is not so some can get very rich while others go hungry.
Non-sequitur. A corporation that server the basic needs of the people working for it can still increase inequality as a whole, and an employer that provides jobs for those who are at the time not able to provide for themselves can still serve to help them get ahead in life and serve society as a whole.
 
A word on why raising the wages of workers works
Isn't this just another way of saying that increasing the minimum wage would make it harder for the less able workers to find jobs?

Basically the whole argument that increasing wages by itself is good for a company is saying that the people who run companies are incapable of seeing what is in their own interests. But perhaps it has the causation the wrong way round. If there are good workers around, then companies have to compete to keep them, and so will have to offer them higher wages, which only the more successful companies will be able to do. So of course we see that companies which offer higher wages to good employees are more successful.

But concluding that every company increasing their wages (which is what an increase in minimum wage would do), would lead to every company becoming more successful doesn't seem warranted. If it were really the case, everybody would be in favour of it. But as it is, the companies who lobby for an increase in minimum wage are always among the more successful ones - because they know that they are better able to absorb the increase than their competitors.


Are you serious?


Are you now the champion of less able people working?

I'm not buying that.

And Robert Reich is saying quite clearly exactly what he means and anyone can read his words and know what he means. Your words, thank you but not necessary.
 
There is a concept that is foreign to capitalism because capitalism is just a small move from the feudalism and slavery that created it and that concept is called economic justice.

And the concept of economic justice is simple.

If two people are working at the same enterprise and one is well fed and one is hungry then the situation is unjust.

Economic justice doesn't mean that everybody should get the same. It means the first job of any economic enterprise is to take care of the basic needs of the people working in it. That is the reason for having them. The reason for having them is not so some can get very rich while others go hungry.
Non-sequitur. A corporation that server the basic needs of the people working for it can still increase inequality as a whole, and an employer that provides jobs for those who are at the time not able to provide for themselves can still serve to help them get ahead in life and serve society as a whole.
You didn't address a word I said.

It isn't your fault. Economic justice is something capitalists don't even think about.
 
Non-sequitur. A corporation that server the basic needs of the people working for it can still increase inequality as a whole, and an employer that provides jobs for those who are at the time not able to provide for themselves can still serve to help them get ahead in life and serve society as a whole.
You didn't address a word I said.

It isn't your fault. Economic justice is something capitalists don't even think about.
Is it then "the first job of any economic enterprise is to take care of the basic needs of the people working in it", or is it about economic justice?

A corporation can increase economic inequality while taking care of its own employees, and vice versa. I'm sure Bernie Madoff's consulting company paid all its employees more than a living wage, for example.
 
You didn't address a word I said.

It isn't your fault. Economic justice is something capitalists don't even think about.
Is it then "the first job of any economic enterprise is to take care of the basic needs of the people working in it", or is about economic justice?

A corporation can increase economic inequality while taking care of its own employees, and vice versa. I'm sure Bernie Madoff's consulting company paid all its employees more than a living wage, for example.
I agree. Fraud should be illegal.

You still haven't addressed a word I've said.
 
Is it then "the first job of any economic enterprise is to take care of the basic needs of the people working in it", or is about economic justice?

A corporation can increase economic inequality while taking care of its own employees, and vice versa. I'm sure Bernie Madoff's consulting company paid all its employees more than a living wage, for example.
I agree. Fraud should be illegal.

You still haven't addressed a word I've said.
So what happens when requiring companies to support their employees is contrary to "economic justice"? For example, if a company has to fire an employee who cannot pull his own weight? Or a charitable NGO who hires semi-volunteers at less than a living wage?

The causes of economic injustice are largely elsewhere than in the notion that companies should take full responsibility for their employees above and beyond what the employees produce.
 
Well I didn't expect 10 pages to crop up here since yesterday...wow!

The discussion has gone in a few directions, but as OP (it's my thread, dammit!) I'd like to revisit a couple points and see if they can be answered...

Implicit in the phrase "living wage" is the idea that the wage is enough to live on. Not "live on with government assistance" or "live on in subsidized housing" or "live on depending upon food banks to put dinner on the table."

Why is that a terrible idea?

Yes there are outliers already mentioned (the ever-present 17 year old working their first job, retirees greeting people at Wal Mart, part time coffee shop workers, etc.) but for the vast majority - people working a full time hourly job - what is the thinking behind the implied assertion that those people should not be paid enough to live on their own without charity or assistance?

I mean if you are going to argue against a living wage, make the case. Explain why a person putting in 40 hours a week should not be able to make a living doing so.

A living wage is not a guarantee of a job. Nor is it or should it be a guarantee that one can keep a job if they don't perform. But if a person gets a full time job and manages to keep it, they should in short order be making enough money that they don't have to depend on charity or subsidies to make it through the week.


Again, not arguing for socialism, or "social justice," or even a basic minimum income provided by the state. I'm talking about a wage floor that would make it possible for individuals to not have to rely upon state support to make ends meet.


Now with regards to the minimum wage and the allegation that raising it would cause economic destruction, I'd point out that when I entered the work force the minimum was somewhere in the mid 3 dollar an hour range. It has since doubled and then some, but if doom and gloom predictions were true, then a doubling of the minimum wage over time would lead to the collapse of society...or at least a few instances of localized zombie apocalypses.

I'm not seeing anything like that yet, but maybe I just live in a nice neighborhood?

So I'll take a wild guess here and say that we could probably double it again over time (leading to the oft-mentioned $15/hour figure) without leading to 50 dollar Big Macs or zombies. I'm also fairly certain that if the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation, cost of living, and growth in the economy, it would probably be around $15/hour anyway. Which brings me to another point.


As a society, we're expecting people to get by in 2014 'Merica on 1994 wages. How is that sustainable? Or perhaps a better question is...if not a living wage, then what?
 
Jobs pay what they pay. There is no right that your job should pay you what you consider a living wage. There are federal minimums, countless ways to better your lot in life and many decisions you can make to improve or worsen things.

All a living wage (whatever that means outside a local context) does is distort the labor and housing market.
 
Huh? So what you are saying is that workers will not accept a higher wage?

Labor is a business cost. The more costs per employee the less number of employees hired; making it harder for the an inexperienced person to get employment.

In terms of cutting off the ladder it's a matter that if labor is expensive companies will only hire the more productive workers.

The guys at the bottom have no path to get started. Normally you get experience at the low jobs so you can move into the high jobs. Remove those low jobs and what happens???

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hiring less employees is a choice made by the owner/manager - it is not an inherent and immutable truth of the universe.

just because you worship at the alter of maximal profit driven greed to the detriment of society and the species on the whole doesn't mean this is a law of nature.

Do you ever hire people (electricians, plumbers, barbers, take-away chefs etc) to do tasks for you? If the cost of these things go up, do you hire fewer of them?

Yes, you hire fewer of them. The more expensive they are the more likely you'll take the DIY route.

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Huh? So what you are saying is that workers will not accept a higher wage?

Labor is a business cost. The more costs per employee the less number of employees hired; making it harder for the an inexperienced person to get employment.

In terms of cutting off the ladder it's a matter that if labor is expensive companies will only hire the more productive workers.

The guys at the bottom have no path to get started. Normally you get experience at the low jobs so you can move into the high jobs. Remove those low jobs and what happens???

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hiring less employees is a choice made by the owner/manager - it is not an inherent and immutable truth of the universe.

just because you worship at the alter of maximal profit driven greed to the detriment of society and the species on the whole doesn't mean this is a law of nature.

Do you ever hire people (electricians, plumbers, barbers, take-away chefs etc) to do tasks for you? If the cost of these things go up, do you hire fewer of them?

Yes, you hire fewer of them. The more expensive they are the more likely you'll take the DIY route.

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Alternet--no quality control and it shows.

This is one such example.
 
If the economy of a developed nation cannot provide a reasonable income for its members, those who provide the necessary skills and labour for industry, there is something wrong with that nation....most likely originating within the social structures and expectations of the privileged classes, those that have the money and political power to shape society to suit their own needs.
 
Damn, I spent all day at the hospital going for my semi-annual check up in the Emory ALS clinic. I thought that I was tired enough to sleep for twelve hours straight. Then I opened this thread. I knew that I shouldn't do it.

Except the issue is that there is always competing interests and sides view the economy in different ways. One side sees the economy as providing jobs, and one sees the economy as providing the good and services for the end consumer. And they are different.

Both are half wrong. The economy is a whole and both are part of it. Only if you look at it that way will you understand it. The job of the economy is to take the resources of a society, to develop them, to produce real products that the society needs and to distribute them to the members of the society.

Capitalism is very good at the production side, it produces most of the products we need, it is very good at developing new products for us and it is very good at refining existing products.

Capitalism is not so good at limiting itself to producing real products. Part of the overheads of capitalism, the inefficiency of capitalism, is the need for a financial sector to determine the viability of capitalistic enterprises. If left unchecked the financial sector starts producing excessive amounts of paper financial products that provide income and the illusion of investment without the payoff of real production.

This burdens the productive side of the capitalistic economy, what Adam Smith's liked to charging excessive "rent" on the productive part of the economy. About 90% of his book, ... The Wealth of Nations, was warning about this tendency. His solution for the problem was simple, government interference in the financial sector to prevent it. The invisible hand was only mentioned once.

Because of this and other reasons capitalism is very bad at distributing "fruits of its efforts" to the members of the society. Capitalism distributes the majority of its resources by paying wages for the work involved in production. It also distributes resources in the form of profits to keep the internal mechanism of capitalism working. But profits are just that, part of the mechanism of capitalism, part of the overhead of capitalism, part of the inefficiency of capitalism, what Adam Smith called "rent" on real production. And as he said this rent should be minimized to only what is needed to keep the mechanism working well.

But no one questions profit any more. We are the product of years of propaganda by the people who collect the profits, surprise. According to them, wages are just costs to be minimized, but profits are the mother's milk of the economy, its very reason for existing.

No one is allowed to call profits what they are, part of the overhead of capitalism, part of the cost of goods and services too. In fact the only inflation that we have had for the last three years or so was due to increased profits. The costs of labor is in deflation, is going down.

The same questions that are being flung around about the proper level of wages can and should be asked first of profits, because they have soared over the last thirty years plus.

Bottom line is that an economy should be judged on how well it uses its resources to produce real products and how well it does distributing the bounty of that production to the members of society. On these two scores the US does very badly. In 1970 the financial sector of the US economy made 2% of the total profits in the whole economy. In 2007 the number was 40%. Of Adam Smith's rent. Wages have flat lined for all but the top earners while profits have soared. Income inequity, the measure of the efficacy of the economy's distribution, is approaching the terrible standards of the gilded age or of a banana republic.

There shouldn't be any question that wages have to start increasing and that profits should be decreasing, both as a percentage of the GDP.

Good night.
 
At a bare minimum, it should be enough to keep an individual working a 40 hour week above the poverty line.

Personally, I think it should be enough to keep a family of 3 or perhaps 4 with one breadwinner working a 40 hour week above the poverty line.
So someone, living by themselves, should, whatever they do, earn enough to keep a family of 4 above the poverty line. As should their future spouse, I suppose. So every couple, eg a pair of 17 year olds in their first jobs, who both want to work, should earn enough between them to keep a family of 6 to 8 above the poverty line?

Where are you getting this idea? You are coming up with confusing and silly assumptions based on what? A living wage is a living wage, not this thing you are talking about. A pair of 17 year olds is too young to have a family of 6 or 8. Why do you even bother to qualify they want to work, considering the crappy jobs available to them anyway? Why do the Koch brothers each need to make enough money to support a family of 50,000?
 
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