What's Wrong With A Living Wage?

[prideandfall]

Do you ever hire people (electricians, plumbers, barbers, take-away chefs etc) to do tasks for you?

on occasion, yes.

If the cost of these things go up, do you hire fewer of them?

depends on if i can replace their work through non-monetary efforts of my own - which in most cases, the answer is 'no' because i'm too lazy to bother.
so, i continue to pay them despite the price.

if an owner doesn't want to pay their employees a reasonable amount of money, the owner can do all the work themselves.

 

[Trausti]

on occasion, yes.

If the cost of these things go up, do you hire fewer of them?

depends on if i can replace their work through non-monetary efforts of my own - which in most cases, the answer is 'no' because i'm too lazy to bother.
so, i continue to pay them despite the price.

if an owner doesn't want to pay their employees a reasonable amount of money, the owner can do all the work themselves.

What if the employer and employee agree that the amount paid for the work is reasonable, even it doesn't met a subjective definition of "living wage"?

 

[prideandfall]

What if the employer and employee agree that the amount paid for the work is reasonable, even it doesn't met a subjective definition of "living wage"?

what if we stopped using money and everyone just gives and gets everything for free all the time?

that's about as likely to happen.

 

[EricK]

on occasion, yes.

If the cost of these things go up, do you hire fewer of them?

depends on if i can replace their work through non-monetary efforts of my own - which in most cases, the answer is 'no' because i'm too lazy to bother.
so, i continue to pay them despite the price.

if an owner doesn't want to pay their employees a reasonable amount of money, the owner can do all the work themselves.

i.e. hire fewer of them. It's like it's some immutable truth of the universe.

 

[J842P]

I believe the implicit assumption is that being alive is the skill to justify the living wage. It is a social not economic argument.

So, merely "being alive" 40 hours a week should warrant a living wage? If everyone is guaranteed a job that requires doing nothing except basic metabolism, can that really be called a "wage" rather than welfare? Not saying that welfare is a bad thing but there's no need to pretend that a person earns it via his own labor if being alive is all it takes.

I actually believe that instead of forcing employers to pay everyone a certain wage there should be a universal basic income.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

on occasion, yes.


depends on if i can replace their work through non-monetary efforts of my own - which in most cases, the answer is 'no' because i'm too lazy to bother.
so, i continue to pay them despite the price.

if an owner doesn't want to pay their employees a reasonable amount of money, the owner can do all the work themselves.

What if the employer and employee agree that the amount paid for the work is reasonable, even it doesn't met a subjective definition of "living wage"?

a couple of things

If the legal minimum wage is ten dollars and hour, will there be a demand for jobs that pay less than? Think people will march in the streets demanding "What do we want? Lower wages! When do we want them? Now! What do we want? Fewer benes! When do we want them? Now! What do we want? Unsafe conditions! When do we want them? Now!"?

If two people are negotiating wages do you think that the worker will say, "I will work for you as long as you like me to for wages less than I can get someplace else and lower than I am legally entitled to. I understand you can't make enough money to pay me better so I will choose to work for you, an employer who can't figure out how to make enough money to live yourself without paying below what I need to live"?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So, merely "being alive" 40 hours a week should warrant a living wage? If everyone is guaranteed a job that requires doing nothing except basic metabolism, can that really be called a "wage" rather than welfare? Not saying that welfare is a bad thing but there's no need to pretend that a person earns it via his own labor if being alive is all it takes.

I actually believe that instead of forcing employers to pay everyone a certain wage there should be a universal basic income.

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

 

[arkirk]

I actually believe that instead of forcing employers to pay everyone a certain wage there should be a universal basic income.

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

 

[coloradoatheist]

What if the employer and employee agree that the amount paid for the work is reasonable, even it doesn't met a subjective definition of "living wage"?

a couple of things

If the legal minimum wage is ten dollars and hour, will there be a demand for jobs that pay less than? Think people will march in the streets demanding "What do we want? Lower wages! When do we want them? Now! What do we want? Fewer benes! When do we want them? Now! What do we want? Unsafe conditions! When do we want them? Now!"?

If two people are negotiating wages do you think that the worker will say, "I will work for you as long as you like me to for wages less than I can get someplace else and lower than I am legally entitled to. I understand you can't make enough money to pay me better so I will choose to work for you, an employer who can't figure out how to make enough money to live yourself without paying below what I need to live"?

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

hiring less employees is a choice made by the owner/manager - it is not an inherent and immutable truth of the universe.

just because you worship at the alter of maximal profit driven greed to the detriment of society and the species on the whole doesn't mean this is a law of nature.

One of the options a business has to cut costs is to let go of employees. I suppose that is a choice; but if the business wants to survive, it's a choice that should surprise no one.

One of many. many, many, many options, but I keep hearing that an upward pressure on wages will always spell doom for a company. This does not reflect reality.

Very few businesses have such razor thin margins and most businesses do not hire people without having a need for them. This goes hand in hand with the myth of "job creators" where you give the rich (or industry) more money and they automatically spend that money creating jobs. Employers hire employees based on need. I recommend that people arguing these positions actually begin to manage companies.

 

[Trausti]

One of many. many, many, many options, but I keep hearing that an upward pressure on wages will always spell doom for a company. This does not reflect reality.

It may not spell doom for the company, as the company can downsize its workforce, consolidate positions, and introduce automation. The inexperienced worker may not fare so well.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

a couple of things

If the legal minimum wage is ten dollars and hour, will there be a demand for jobs that pay less than? Think people will march in the streets demanding "What do we want? Lower wages! When do we want them? Now! What do we want? Fewer benes! When do we want them? Now! What do we want? Unsafe conditions! When do we want them? Now!"?

If two people are negotiating wages do you think that the worker will say, "I will work for you as long as you like me to for wages less than I can get someplace else and lower than I am legally entitled to. I understand you can't make enough money to pay me better so I will choose to work for you, an employer who can't figure out how to make enough money to live yourself without paying below what I need to live"?

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

so let me get this straight.

Teens engage in criminal activity (that pays them hundreds of dollars a week) because they can't find jobs that would pay them five dollars an hour?

 

[Jayjay]

no, the argument here is "that job" is worth 15 dollars an hour, and any implication that it's worth less than that is wrong.

IMO a "living wage" is enough per month for 1 person to afford the median average cost of lodging (rent + utilities), food, general life expenses (gas, phone, internet, car and health insurance), quality of life expenses (spending money for a night out here and there or the occasional trinket), and approximately 15-20% on top of whatever that total ends up being, with the intention being savings or optional extra expenses.

that is the minimum of what every full time work week is worth, and if an employer can't afford to pay their employees that much, they need to not be an employer - period.

Or to put it another way, if an employee's labor is not worth that much, they need not be employed.

 

[coloradoatheist]

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

so let me get this straight.

Teens engage in criminal activity (that pays them hundreds of dollars a week) because they can't find jobs that would pay them five dollars an hour?

In part yes. There are advantages to the teens having jobs in terms of career and social outcome.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

so let me get this straight.

Teens engage in criminal activity (that pays them hundreds of dollars a week) because they can't find jobs that would pay them five dollars an hour?

In part yes. There are advantages to the teens having jobs in terms of career and social outcome.

and you think teens think that way?

 

[arkirk]

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

so let me get this straight.

Teens engage in criminal activity (that pays them hundreds of dollars a week) because they can't find jobs that would pay them five dollars an hour?

In part yes. There are advantages to the teens having jobs in terms of career and social outcome.

It is a matter of engagement with society for them. If they are on their own, they may need at least a minimum wage to stay afloat. They should have a job, especially if they are not in school that allows them to live a normal life. When this fails, they look elsewhere and many just say "Screw society! It's screwing me!" This is not good, but it is to be expected. Your pay is what supports your social existence. If it is insufficient the answers a person can find may include criminal activity. That really is no mystery. The $5 per hour job is no answer.

 

[prideandfall]

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

so let me get this straight.

Teens engage in criminal activity (that pays them hundreds of dollars a week) because they can't find jobs that would pay them five dollars an hour?

In part yes. There are advantages to the teens having jobs in terms of career and social outcome.

i gotta hand it to you man... that is one of the most hilariously fucking stupid assertions i have ever seen around here, and there are no limit of fucking stupid assertions around here.

... teens turn to crime because they can't get below minimum wage paying jobs.... jesus mcfuck that is comedy gold.

 

[coloradoatheist]

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

so let me get this straight.

Teens engage in criminal activity (that pays them hundreds of dollars a week) because they can't find jobs that would pay them five dollars an hour?

In part yes. There are advantages to the teens having jobs in terms of career and social outcome.

It is a matter of engagement with society for them. If they are on their own, they may need at least a minimum wage to stay afloat. They should have a job, especially if they are not in school that allows them to live a normal life. When this fails, they look elsewhere and many just say "Screw society! It's screwing me!" This is not good, but it is to be expected. Your pay is what supports your social existence. If it is insufficient the answers a person can find may include criminal activity. That really is no mystery. The $5 per hour job is no answer.

Except teens for the most part don't need that much extra, and it's the skills of the job, having structured time, spending money, etc that are most beneficial. So instead of being hired at what you want for that hire pay they aren't hired at all.

 

[coloradoatheist]

There is a demand for it. Internships are one way around it. But considering that unemployment for teens and especially black teens is high they go and do other things like crime instead of getting a job since they can't get a job that pays less than minimum wage.

- - - Updated - - -

I not only think that is a good idea, but an inevitability if current economic practices are to last bast this century.

Some of us have sufficient imagination and comprehension to see past the point when we deal with entire problems and do not confine our thinking to fractional adjustments that do little or nothing to rectify problems. You are right, Athena.

Actually this is the idea that more economists support.

so let me get this straight.

Teens engage in criminal activity (that pays them hundreds of dollars a week) because they can't find jobs that would pay them five dollars an hour?

In part yes. There are advantages to the teens having jobs in terms of career and social outcome.

i gotta hand it to you man... that is one of the most hilariously fucking stupid assertions i have ever seen around here, and there are no limit of fucking stupid assertions around here.

... teens turn to crime because they can't get below minimum wage paying jobs.... jesus mcfuck that is comedy gold.

Here is a report on that signed there is a correlation.https://www2.bc.edu/~beauchaa/CrimeMW.pdf

 

[Nice Squirrel]

One of many. many, many, many options, but I keep hearing that an upward pressure on wages will always spell doom for a company. This does not reflect reality.

It may not spell doom for the company, as the company can downsize its workforce, consolidate positions, and introduce automation. The inexperienced worker may not fare so well.

It can also upsize its workforce, expand production, hire better workers, etc.