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"Stephen Fry pronounces the death of classical liberalism: ‘We are irrelevant and outdated bystanders’"

Actually Hitches in the last years of his life transformed into an avid supporter of GW Bush and US unjustified imperial invasions.

He destroyed his reputation as a liberal thinker.

Even if some forget.

He didn't support GW Bush. He was in favour of the war in Iraq. I had and have the same opinion as Hitchens. I share Hitchens views on most things. I'm extremely alike in values with him. And I'm also a leftish... same as Hitchens.

Just because you're a lefty doesn't mean you have to be completely spineless. A lot of people on the left seem to think so
 
Actually Hitches in the last years of his life transformed into an avid supporter of GW Bush and US unjustified imperial invasions.

He destroyed his reputation as a liberal thinker.

Even if some forget.

He didn't support GW Bush. He was in favour of the war in Iraq. I had and have the same opinion as Hitchens. I share Hitchens views on most things. I'm extremely alike in values with him. And I'm also a leftish... same as Hitchens.

Just because you're a lefty doesn't mean you have to be completely spineless. A lot of people on the left seem to think so

He was a total supporter of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all their lies. You can probably find videos of him defending their lies.

He was a complete sell out to everything he had stood for.

He was a jingoistic supporter of imperial invasion and all that goes along with that, like murder and torture and rape.

What a shame it was.
 
Actually Hitches in the last years of his life transformed into an avid supporter of GW Bush and US unjustified imperial invasions.

He destroyed his reputation as a liberal thinker.

Even if some forget.

He didn't support GW Bush. He was in favour of the war in Iraq. I had and have the same opinion as Hitchens. I share Hitchens views on most things. I'm extremely alike in values with him. And I'm also a leftish... same as Hitchens.

Just because you're a lefty doesn't mean you have to be completely spineless. A lot of people on the left seem to think so

He was a total supporter of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all their lies. You can probably find videos of him defending their lies.

He was a complete sell out to everything he had stood for.

He was a jingoistic supporter of imperial invasion and all that goes along with that, like murder and torture and rape.

What a shame it was.

No, he wasn't. He was a supporter of the fact that they were for a war in Iraq. He was NOT a supporter of anything they stood for or anything else they did. They were unlikely allies in this. But that's fine. It's a sign of maturity to dare to publically agree on some things with sworn enemies once in a while. They both supported the war in Iraq. But for different reasons. I don't think he was a sell out. If he sold out it implies he had something to gain personally for doing this. I'm pretty sure it was a net loss for him. He's a lefty so the right would never touch him... even with a long stick.

I'll say it again... I'm a lefty... a bleeding heart liberal... and I supported the war in Iraq.
 
He was a total supporter of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all their lies. You can probably find videos of him defending their lies.

He was a complete sell out to everything he had stood for.

He was a jingoistic supporter of imperial invasion and all that goes along with that, like murder and torture and rape.

What a shame it was.

No, he wasn't. He was a supporter of the fact that they were for a war in Iraq. He was NOT a supporter of anything they stood for or anything else they did. They were unlikely allies in this. But that's fine. It's a sign of maturity to dare to publically agree on some things with sworn enemies once in a while. They both supported the war in Iraq. But for different reasons. I don't think he was a sell out. If he sold out it implies he had something to gain personally for doing this. I'm pretty sure it was a net loss for him. He's a lefty so the right would never touch him... even with a long stick.

I'll say it again... I'm a lefty... a bleeding heart liberal... and I supported the war in Iraq.

Wrong.

He strongly supported the immoral invasion.

And everything that goes along with that.

Murder and torture and rape.

You are no liberal if you support unneeded imperial invasions and everything that goes along with that.

You are living in a fantasy world where millions tortured and terrorized means nothing.

Those were flesh and blood humans you supported the murder torture and rape of.

If you support the US committing atrocities like this you must support anybody doing it or you are a hypocrite.

That is morality. I allow for myself what I would allow for anybody.
 
[
Forgive me if I'm thinking of someone else, but I thought it had been established, several times, that JP is not "white"?

It has been. It doesn't fit underseer's narrative, so I am forced to be white here. The makeup is giving me acne.
 
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While I am sure that there are some extremists, as there are anywhere on anything, dealing with racism and patriarchy remain very important.

Absolutely. And opposing racism and sexism requires not pushing racism and sexism, as identitarians of all stripes are prone to do. It is striking how much the illiberal left identitarians and white nationalist identitarians fundamentally have in common.
 
He was a total supporter of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all their lies. You can probably find videos of him defending their lies.

He was a complete sell out to everything he had stood for.

He was a jingoistic supporter of imperial invasion and all that goes along with that, like murder and torture and rape.

What a shame it was.

No, he wasn't. He was a supporter of the fact that they were for a war in Iraq. He was NOT a supporter of anything they stood for or anything else they did. They were unlikely allies in this. But that's fine. It's a sign of maturity to dare to publically agree on some things with sworn enemies once in a while. They both supported the war in Iraq. But for different reasons. I don't think he was a sell out. If he sold out it implies he had something to gain personally for doing this. I'm pretty sure it was a net loss for him. He's a lefty so the right would never touch him... even with a long stick.

I'll say it again... I'm a lefty... a bleeding heart liberal... and I supported the war in Iraq.

Wrong.

He strongly supported the immoral invasion.

And everything that goes along with that.

Murder and torture and rape.

You are no liberal if you support unneeded imperial invasions and everything that goes along with that.

You are living in a fantasy world where millions tortured and terrorized means nothing.

Those were flesh and blood humans you supported the murder torture and rape of.

If you support the US committing atrocities like this you must support anybody doing it or you are a hypocrite.

That is morality. I allow for myself what I would allow for anybody.

Except that it wasn't immoral. I think it would have been immoral not to invade. I'd argue you're not a liberal if you're not willing to fight and die for your liberal values. When it came to Iraq most liberals were spineless. But most people are like that. Cowards who just complain and do nothing for anybody
 
Wrong.

He strongly supported the immoral invasion.

And everything that goes along with that.

Murder and torture and rape.

You are no liberal if you support unneeded imperial invasions and everything that goes along with that.

You are living in a fantasy world where millions tortured and terrorized means nothing.

Those were flesh and blood humans you supported the murder torture and rape of.

If you support the US committing atrocities like this you must support anybody doing it or you are a hypocrite.

That is morality. I allow for myself what I would allow for anybody.

Except that it wasn't immoral. I think it would have been immoral not to invade. I'd argue you're not a liberal if you're not willing to fight and die for your liberal values. When it came to Iraq most liberals were spineless. But most people are like that. Cowards who just complain and do nothing for anybody

Immoral not to kill?

Immoral not to rape?

Immoral not to torture?

Insanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The US was not being attacked. It was not threatened in any way.

There is no cowardice in not starting a huge war and killing a lot of people.

What that invasion was was treason.

The scum that ordered it should be hung. There is no statute of limitation on their crimes.

Tried and hung. That would be a little justice and a warning to future war mongers.
 
Wrong.

He strongly supported the immoral invasion.

And everything that goes along with that.

Murder and torture and rape.

You are no liberal if you support unneeded imperial invasions and everything that goes along with that.

You are living in a fantasy world where millions tortured and terrorized means nothing.

Those were flesh and blood humans you supported the murder torture and rape of.

If you support the US committing atrocities like this you must support anybody doing it or you are a hypocrite.

That is morality. I allow for myself what I would allow for anybody.

Except that it wasn't immoral. I think it would have been immoral not to invade. I'd argue you're not a liberal if you're not willing to fight and die for your liberal values. When it came to Iraq most liberals were spineless. But most people are like that. Cowards who just complain and do nothing for anybody

Immoral not to kill?

Immoral not to rape?

Immoral not to torture?

Insanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How can you call yourself a liberal and be fine with letting a monster like Saddam stay in power? He was using his own people as nothing more than hostages in an extortion racket. I don't understand how your reasoning goes?

Why mention rape and torture? That was never the goal or anything Hitchens argued for? So why bring it up?
 
I'm all for peaceful methods when applicable. But when they don't it's time for violence. To quote one of my heroes, Nelson Mandela "sometimes non-violence doesn't work".

Something your hero George Orwell agreed with
 
He was a total supporter of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all their lies. You can probably find videos of him defending their lies.

He was a complete sell out to everything he had stood for.

He was a jingoistic supporter of imperial invasion and all that goes along with that, like murder and torture and rape.

What a shame it was.

No, he wasn't. He was a supporter of the fact that they were for a war in Iraq. He was NOT a supporter of anything they stood for or anything else they did. They were unlikely allies in this. But that's fine. It's a sign of maturity to dare to publically agree on some things with sworn enemies once in a while. They both supported the war in Iraq. But for different reasons. I don't think he was a sell out. If he sold out it implies he had something to gain personally for doing this. I'm pretty sure it was a net loss for him. He's a lefty so the right would never touch him... even with a long stick.

I'll say it again... I'm a lefty... a bleeding heart liberal... and I supported the war in Iraq.

The war in Iraq was like "burning down the village to save it."
 
Hitch was a good example of the fact that we can't assign people to boxes and therefrom predict everything about them. I agreed with him on almost everything but his stance on the war. That stance doesn't mean he sold out or is a traitor to me. It just means we disagreed on something. That's allowed.
 
He was a total supporter of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and all their lies. You can probably find videos of him defending their lies.

He was a complete sell out to everything he had stood for.

He was a jingoistic supporter of imperial invasion and all that goes along with that, like murder and torture and rape.

What a shame it was.

No, he wasn't. He was a supporter of the fact that they were for a war in Iraq. He was NOT a supporter of anything they stood for or anything else they did. They were unlikely allies in this. But that's fine. It's a sign of maturity to dare to publically agree on some things with sworn enemies once in a while. They both supported the war in Iraq. But for different reasons. I don't think he was a sell out. If he sold out it implies he had something to gain personally for doing this. I'm pretty sure it was a net loss for him. He's a lefty so the right would never touch him... even with a long stick.

I'll say it again... I'm a lefty... a bleeding heart liberal... and I supported the war in Iraq.

The war in Iraq was like "burning down the village to save it."

That's how it turned out because Bush rushed into the war with zero plan for what to do after securing victory. Bush handled the occupation about as humanly bad it was possible to do. And going our of his way to antagonize the international community before the war was dumb. Because it ended up with a lot of possible allies hoping he'd fail.

Almost anybody else would have been a better leader of that invasion.

But at least he did it. Which earns him loads of points for effort.

I'm not a big fan of non-violence or protests backed up by nothing. You don't get peace on earth by promoting non-violence. You get peace on earth by invading and destroying aggressive fuckwits who insist on antagonizing everybody around them. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan showed the world that the West was willing to put some muscle behind their ideals. That's handy now when we have China and Russia to worry about.
 
Here are my thoughts.

There are a lot of racists. Racism is one of the big problems. So is patriarchy. If we call engaging in trying to minimize these "identity politics," it's really an attack from the Right, trying to do re-frame of the issues. While I am sure that there are some extremists, as there are anywhere on anything, dealing with racism and patriarchy remain very important.

Regarding cultural appropriation, I think it's a term that is way overused by people from all sides. I think 90% of the time the term is used, it's not a proper example.

I agree with this. The term identity politics infers that there is some outside group that doesn’t adhere to an identity as being part of a larger group. Ridiculous.

Whether you are a Republican, Democrat, mechanic, Lakers fan, fisherman, Iowan, Torontonian, whatever....

Ezra Klein was just talking about a group who identifies as Non-Tribalists who claim they are morally correct, others are not, you are with them or against them, they organize - “Hey Non-Tribalists! I have bad news for you!”....
 
I've rarely encountered the illiberal, ultra-PC etc left. But I've encountered plenty of alt-right types who rail against it. I think the former is mostly the latter's bogeyman; fabricated to distract from the failings of neoliberalism.

..as others have said.

That said, centre-left mainstream parties do sometimes seem more concerned with identity politics than the failings of neoliberalism.
 
Also worth noting is that a big reason liberated Iraq had problems was because Saddam had created ethnic tensions on purpose. These flared up when the people were liberated. That's Saddam's fault. And the western colonialist government before him. If we avoid invading countries because they do this, then we encourage dictators to do it. Incentives matter.

If dictators don't personally fear for their lives they're not going to cooperate when threatened.
 
The war in Iraq was like "burning down the village to save it."

That's how it turned out because Bush rushed into the war with zero plan for what to do after securing victory. Bush handled the occupation about as humanly bad it was possible to do. And going our of his way to antagonize the international community before the war was dumb. Because it ended up with a lot of possible allies hoping he'd fail.

Almost anybody else would have been a better leader of that invasion.

But at least he did it. Which earns him loads of points for effort.

I'm not a big fan of non-violence or protests backed up by nothing. You don't get peace on earth by promoting non-violence. You get peace on earth by invading and destroying aggressive fuckwits who insist on antagonizing everybody around them. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan showed the world that the West was willing to put some muscle behind their ideals. That's handy now when we have China and Russia to worry about.

Will you be taking point against the next dictator? There's plenty of them out there to choose from.
 
I've rarely encountered the illiberal, ultra-PC etc left. But I've encountered plenty of alt-right types who rail against it. I think the former is mostly the latter's bogeyman; fabricated to distract from the failings of neoliberalism.

..as others have said.

That said, centre-left mainstream parties do sometimes seem more concerned with identity politics than the failings of neoliberalism.

Its smaller than on the right, but it is growing, and it is coming from the younger demographic, so it will continue to grow. It was mostly on college campuses. It has spilled forth from there. It is indeed used as the bogeyman of the alt-right. It empowers the alt-right.
 
The war in Iraq was like "burning down the village to save it."

That's how it turned out because Bush rushed into the war with zero plan for what to do after securing victory. Bush handled the occupation about as humanly bad it was possible to do. And going our of his way to antagonize the international community before the war was dumb. Because it ended up with a lot of possible allies hoping he'd fail.

Almost anybody else would have been a better leader of that invasion.

But at least he did it. Which earns him loads of points for effort.

I'm not a big fan of non-violence or protests backed up by nothing. You don't get peace on earth by promoting non-violence. You get peace on earth by invading and destroying aggressive fuckwits who insist on antagonizing everybody around them. The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan showed the world that the West was willing to put some muscle behind their ideals. That's handy now when we have China and Russia to worry about.

Will you be taking point against the next dictator? There's plenty of them out there to choose from.

Sure. If there's opportunity for it. I have several friends who went and volunteered for service. If it's a cause I care about enough I'd go. But there's many factors. Practicality being a big one.

But most importantly we need political will. Today we suffer from that USA poisoned the well in the Cold War. So nobody trusts USA any longer. I think Europe's embrace of postmodernism is an expression of this.

But Fry is correct that liberalism is dead. And it's the only banner I'd be willing to fight under

I want liberals to be aggressive and militant
 
I would much rather change (b) than (a). Censorship, even of speech with the worst content is not good. Let that speech be spoken, and then counter it with better ideas. I agree that a monopoly on the megaphone is a serious problem, but I'm not certain what hte best solution to it is. We need to find a way in which more people can more easily be heard. Shutting people down, especially those with minority dangerous ideas, isn't that.

It's not the quantity of voices that needs to be changed, it's their relationship to authoritarian power and its oppressive functions. Censorship to protect the entrenched and ill-gotten wealth of the minority is one thing, and I oppose it, but speech that harms those who are already victims of this exploitation and oppression doesn't get to hijack the communications infrastructure made possible by the very people they are harming. We can simply say no to them, without giving them time to argue their case because they don't have one; we know this, we know what they want, and it's already settled that it's bad and not worth listening to.

I don't. I don't support repeatedly punching anyone in the face. And I noticed you wrote white nationalists and not white supremacists or violent white nationalists or nazis. That alarms me.
Those are synonyms, I hate to be the one to break it to you.

And I am curious why you stop at punch in the face? Why not kill? Why is one ok for you but not the other? Or are both ok? If somebody shot Richard Spencer dead tomorrow, should they be charged or praised?
There's no need to needlessly escalate to lethal force if violent resistance will do the trick. The point is not to wipe them out through genocide, it's to create the expectation that their ideas are not welcome in society. We need a unified, organized, ruthless contrary force to positively demolish the foundations of everything Richard Spencer stands for, and if there is a way to do that effectively without much violence I'm all for it, but the longer we wait the harder that becomes. My problem with liberals is they do not even see this need. They imagine that, like in a free market, people will just naturally disagree with people like Spencer and thus he will lose his platform and incite less violence as the invisible hand sweeps him into the dustbin of public discourse. Speech doesn't work like that when money = volume. The degree to which the voices of those in the upper crust has been unduly amplified, far beyond what someone working 60 hours a week could ever hope for, means unconditional free speech is actually a mechanism for increasing inequality and preserving power imbalances that serve the rich.

In the 60s, 70s, and 80s kids were protesting FOR free speech, not against it. Somehow it got turned around.
Everything to do with power and who has it. As long as there is a segment of people who do nothing and own everything, it will be in their interest to silence the majority they depend on for their wealth. This should be fought at all costs. However, when the same cabal turns around and starts using their massive overblown media empire to attempt to brainwash us into thinking they've got our best interests at heart, when what they're actually saying is to wipe out people because of their race, sexual orientation, or religion, it would be unreasonable to allow them to speak as if we were all evaluating their suggestions for the first time on a pure, blank backdrop.

It comes down to the difference between the liberal idea of freedom (everybody does whatever they want individually by default, and society's job is to manage the intersections between conflicting wants) and the idea of social freedom (nobody has any freedom without everybody else, and it is only through cooperation and mutual support that any individual gains freedom). The liberal conception is not very old, believe it or not, but it is often assumed to be the natural, obvious one. As if the tens of millennia of basically egalitarian social organization in the families and tribes of our ancestors was the exception, and the system invented by the winners of feudalism's collapse a few centuries ago is how humans are programmed to operate from birth.
 
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