Martina Navratilova dropped by LGBT group over trans athletes row

[AirPoh]

I was wondering when this would come up.

(CNN)An LGBT group has cut ties with tennis great Martina Navratilova after she said it was a form of "cheating" for transgender women to be allowed to compete in women's sport.

New York-based Athlete Ally, which supports LGBT sportspeople, called the comments transphobic and removed the 18-time Grand Slam winner from its advisory board and as an ambassador.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/tenn...a-dropped-lgbt-group-scli-spt-intl/index.html

Personally, I don't think she's being transphobic. And I think the LGBT community/group is really overreacting and missing a huge opportunity to move their cause further.

 

[dismal]

I don't know that it's "cheating" because that depends entirely on what the rules are.

However, I do think getting away from the idea there's a biological definition of woman is the end of there being a point in having "women's sports". There's an inherent contradiction.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill there, but if that molehill self-identifies as a mountain, who are we to argue?

She does have a technically valid point, but if nobody is actually doing that then it's a moot point about a non-existent problem. Especially if they put rules in place like the Olympics to test testosterone levels for a year beforehand in order to limit potential advantages, then it would be fine.

Calling her statement transphobic is taking it too far, though. At worst, it's a misunderstanding of the details about the matter on her part.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Why do we have "women's sports" to begin with? Why not have the women compete with the men? Because in many sports men have a natural genetic advantage. This is like declaring yourself "disabled" and entering and winning the Special Olympics. Where is the lobby in favour of that?

 

[Gun Nut]

Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill there, but if that molehill self-identifies as a mountain, who are we to argue?

Cartographers.

The Englishman that went up a hill and came down a mountain:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112966/

 

[J842P]

Yeah, see, the fundamental problem here is that there is a whole strain of thought that is being pushed in the academy that there *isn't any difference between a transgender male and a cisgender male* other than the fact that the transgender male was "assigned female at birth".

I think a lot of people sort of just ignored this. I mean really, how much influence do the humanities have?

Turns out that it's a lot. And it wouldn't be a problem if they were just in the business of interpreting literature, or "theory", then it would just be shitty scholarship.

 

[repoman]

Yeah, see, the fundamental problem here is that there is a whole strain of thought that is being pushed in the academy that there *isn't any difference between a transgender male and a cisgender male* other than the fact that the transgender male was "assigned female at birth".

I think a lot of people sort of just ignored this. I mean really, how much influence do the humanities have?

Turns out that it's a lot. And it wouldn't be a problem if they were just in the business of interpreting literature, or "theory", then it would just be shitty scholarship.

This is the kind of influence that TSwizzle and Angelo think that they (leftists?) also have in relation to the research of climate change. This is a massive false equivalency.

 

[AirPoh]

Why do we have "women's sports" to begin with? Why not have the women compete with the men? Because in many sports men have a natural genetic advantage. This is like declaring yourself "disabled" and entering and winning the Special Olympics. Where is the lobby in favour of that?

If you're stupid enough to declare yourself disabled to complete in the Special Olympics, you probably are disabled. If you're stupid enough to think you can even declare yourself disabled, you probably are disabled.

 

[ronburgundy]

Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill there, but if that molehill self-identifies as a mountain, who are we to argue?

Is that a breast enlargement joke as well?

She does have a technically valid point, but if nobody is actually doing that then it's a moot point about a non-existent problem. Especially if they put rules in place like the Olympics to test testosterone levels for a year beforehand in order to limit potential advantages, then it would be fine.

Testosterone levels at time X don't negate the physical advantages of having male testosterone levels throughout childhood, puberty, and for one's life leading up to that point.

A transwoman who had male testosterone levels for her first 20 years, but female range levels the year leading up the the competition is at a far greater physical advantage than a non-trans woman who had female levels for 20 years, but has been taking steroids for the past year. 20 years of testosterone exposure matters more than current levels. So while the motive in making the transition is not to try and cheat and gain an advantage, the effect on the fairness of the competition is the same or worse as a woman who does "cheat" by taking male steroids during competition. Thus, she is more right than wrong about the substantive issue.

And it is a real emerging problem in women's sports, since most transwomen are transitioning in adulthood. It is something that rational minds (i.e., not political activists) need to work out, and it's possible that pro sports is just something that one cannot do if they are a transwoman, unless there are enough other transwomen to form their own league, or they must remain in the men's league for the same reason that there are separate male and female leagues in the first place.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill there, but if that molehill self-identifies as a mountain, who are we to argue?

Is that a breast enlargement joke as well?

She does have a technically valid point, but if nobody is actually doing that then it's a moot point about a non-existent problem. Especially if they put rules in place like the Olympics to test testosterone levels for a year beforehand in order to limit potential advantages, then it would be fine.

Testosterone levels at time X don't negate the physical advantages of having male testosterone levels throughout childhood, puberty, and for one's life leading up to that point.

A transwoman who had male testosterone levels for her first 20 years, but female range levels the year leading up the the competition is at a far greater physical advantage than a non-trans woman who had female levels for 20 years, but has been taking steroids for the past year. 20 years of testosterone exposure matters more than current levels. So while the motive in making the transition is not to try and cheat and gain an advantage, the effect on the fairness of the competition is the same or worse as a woman who does "cheat" by taking male steroids during competition. Thus, she is more right than wrong about the substantive issue.

And it is a real emerging problem in women's sports, since most transwomen are transitioning in adulthood. It is something that rational minds (i.e., not political activists) need to work out, and it's possible that pro sports is just something that one cannot do if they are a transwoman, unless there are enough other transwomen to form their own league, or they must remain in the men's league for the same reason that there are separate male and female leagues in the first place.

Ya, it's an issue that they need to deal with and come up with a policy about. This is something which they need to do right now BEFORE an actual trans person wants to join a league and they're forced to hack together something on the spur of the moment.

Based on their reaction to Navratilova, however, I expect it's more likely they'll go with the alternative strategy of not having a position at all in order to avoid potentially offending someone by taking a position and hope that the situation never actually comes up until after they leave and then the next group of people can deal with it in an inefficient and unplanned manner which will get them all called some form of bigot.

 

[dismal]

Is that a breast enlargement joke as well?



Testosterone levels at time X don't negate the physical advantages of having male testosterone levels throughout childhood, puberty, and for one's life leading up to that point.

A transwoman who had male testosterone levels for her first 20 years, but female range levels the year leading up the the competition is at a far greater physical advantage than a non-trans woman who had female levels for 20 years, but has been taking steroids for the past year. 20 years of testosterone exposure matters more than current levels. So while the motive in making the transition is not to try and cheat and gain an advantage, the effect on the fairness of the competition is the same or worse as a woman who does "cheat" by taking male steroids during competition. Thus, she is more right than wrong about the substantive issue.

And it is a real emerging problem in women's sports, since most transwomen are transitioning in adulthood. It is something that rational minds (i.e., not political activists) need to work out, and it's possible that pro sports is just something that one cannot do if they are a transwoman, unless there are enough other transwomen to form their own league, or they must remain in the men's league for the same reason that there are separate male and female leagues in the first place.

Ya, it's an issue that they need to deal with and come up with a policy about. This is something which they need to do right now BEFORE an actual trans person wants to join a league and they're forced to hack together something on the spur of the moment.

Well, it's already been happening. Even if you forget about the whole Renee Richards thing which basically wasn't that big of a deal because xir was a pretty mediocre men's tennis player, there have already been stories like these:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...gender-cyclist-fans-flames-of-gender-politics

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/tra...ition-change-policy-compete/story?id=56071191

 

[ronburgundy]

Is that a breast enlargement joke as well?



Testosterone levels at time X don't negate the physical advantages of having male testosterone levels throughout childhood, puberty, and for one's life leading up to that point.

A transwoman who had male testosterone levels for her first 20 years, but female range levels the year leading up the the competition is at a far greater physical advantage than a non-trans woman who had female levels for 20 years, but has been taking steroids for the past year. 20 years of testosterone exposure matters more than current levels. So while the motive in making the transition is not to try and cheat and gain an advantage, the effect on the fairness of the competition is the same or worse as a woman who does "cheat" by taking male steroids during competition. Thus, she is more right than wrong about the substantive issue.

And it is a real emerging problem in women's sports, since most transwomen are transitioning in adulthood. It is something that rational minds (i.e., not political activists) need to work out, and it's possible that pro sports is just something that one cannot do if they are a transwoman, unless there are enough other transwomen to form their own league, or they must remain in the men's league for the same reason that there are separate male and female leagues in the first place.

Ya, it's an issue that they need to deal with and come up with a policy about. This is something which they need to do right now BEFORE an actual trans person wants to join a league and they're forced to hack together something on the spur of the moment.

Based on their reaction to Navratilova, however, I expect it's more likely they'll go with the alternative strategy of not having a position at all in order to avoid potentially offending someone by taking a position and hope that the situation never actually comes up until after they leave and then the next group of people can deal with it in an inefficient and unplanned manner which will get them all called some form of bigot.

Sadly, you are probably correct. Also, there are already instances of transwomen with obvious and massive (literally) physical advantages over their female competition, including in track, rugby, and even pro tennis. In fact, 60 years ago there was a male in his 20's who had played on the Men's pro circuit and never got past the 2nd round in an major. He retired and went to med school. 20 years later he transitioned to a woman, the now famous Rene' Richards, then sued the USTA and got a judge to force them to allow her to compete in the women's US Open. In her 40's she made the finals in women's doubles and 2 years later got to the 3rd round in singles and semi-finals in "mixed" doubles. IOW, she beat more woman 20 years younger than her than she beat men her same age when she was a man at his physical peak.

And then it gets more interesting, because after retiring as a woman she became Navratilova's coach and helped her win 2 Wimbledon titles. So, is she angry at her friend and colleague for her supposed "transphobia"? It wouldn't seem so, because she appears to agree with Navratilova and said in 2015 "I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."

In the past, the issue was rare b/c it seems that most in the LGBT community didn't hold the delusion that a transwoman who was a man for 20 years is biologically the same as genetic female for life. But a wave of such instances are coming b/c the current generation of activists are blinded by anti-science dogma that denies any differences, while ignoring the logical implication that it would mean no differences between males and females and thus eliminates the need for woman's sports altogether.

 

[J842P]

Seems to be making a mountain out of a molehill there, but if that molehill self-identifies as a mountain, who are we to argue?

Is that a breast enlargement joke as well?

She does have a technically valid point, but if nobody is actually doing that then it's a moot point about a non-existent problem. Especially if they put rules in place like the Olympics to test testosterone levels for a year beforehand in order to limit potential advantages, then it would be fine.

Testosterone levels at time X don't negate the physical advantages of having male testosterone levels throughout childhood, puberty, and for one's life leading up to that point.

A transwoman who had male testosterone levels for her first 20 years, but female range levels the year leading up the the competition is at a far greater physical advantage than a non-trans woman who had female levels for 20 years, but has been taking steroids for the past year. 20 years of testosterone exposure matters more than current levels. So while the motive in making the transition is not to try and cheat and gain an advantage, the effect on the fairness of the competition is the same or worse as a woman who does "cheat" by taking male steroids during competition. Thus, she is more right than wrong about the substantive issue.

And it is a real emerging problem in women's sports, since most transwomen are transitioning in adulthood. It is something that rational minds (i.e., not political activists) need to work out, and it's possible that pro sports is just something that one cannot do if they are a transwoman, unless there are enough other transwomen to form their own league, or they must remain in the men's league for the same reason that there are separate male and female leagues in the first place.

One solution: T-League and Non-T League.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Is that a breast enlargement joke as well?



Testosterone levels at time X don't negate the physical advantages of having male testosterone levels throughout childhood, puberty, and for one's life leading up to that point.

A transwoman who had male testosterone levels for her first 20 years, but female range levels the year leading up the the competition is at a far greater physical advantage than a non-trans woman who had female levels for 20 years, but has been taking steroids for the past year. 20 years of testosterone exposure matters more than current levels. So while the motive in making the transition is not to try and cheat and gain an advantage, the effect on the fairness of the competition is the same or worse as a woman who does "cheat" by taking male steroids during competition. Thus, she is more right than wrong about the substantive issue.

And it is a real emerging problem in women's sports, since most transwomen are transitioning in adulthood. It is something that rational minds (i.e., not political activists) need to work out, and it's possible that pro sports is just something that one cannot do if they are a transwoman, unless there are enough other transwomen to form their own league, or they must remain in the men's league for the same reason that there are separate male and female leagues in the first place.

Ya, it's an issue that they need to deal with and come up with a policy about. This is something which they need to do right now BEFORE an actual trans person wants to join a league and they're forced to hack together something on the spur of the moment.

Well, it's already been happening. Even if you forget about the whole Renee Richards thing which basically wasn't that big of a deal because xir was a pretty mediocre men's tennis player, there have already been stories like these:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canad...gender-cyclist-fans-flames-of-gender-politics

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/tra...ition-change-policy-compete/story?id=56071191

Well then, they needed to deal with this years ago or these organizations would have found themselves in the exact position where they seemed to have found themselves when it happened - kind of like I said.

The female athletes here do have a legitimate complaint and it's the same one that Navratilova made. If there is a need for separate men's and women's leagues in these sports, then people who grew up as men and have the associated musculature have an unfair advantage in the competitions against the biological women.

 

[dismal]

The female athletes here do have a legitimate complaint

I think what you meant to say is if they complain they're transophobic transophobes.

Cause that's usually how the "debate" goes.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The female athletes here do have a legitimate complaint

I think what you meant to say is if they complain they're transophobic transophobes.

Cause that's usually how the "debate" goes.

And therein lies the exact problem. The bronze medalist in the cycling article you linked to earlier had a legitimate complaint about how she faced unfair competition and should have placed higher in a fair race. She was trashed as a bigot because of this and forced to retract her comments. When Navratilova raised this exact same legitimate complaint about how the same would apply in tennis, she was trashed as a bigot and lost a sponsorship.

I don't know what the answer is to trans athletes wanting to compete as the gender they identify as, but I do know that calling calling one side of the issue a group of bigots and then not dealing with the matter is not that answer.

 

[dismal]

The female athletes here do have a legitimate complaint

I think what you meant to say is if they complain they're transophobic transophobes.

Cause that's usually how the "debate" goes.

And therein lies the exact problem. The bronze medalist in the cycling article you linked to earlier had a legitimate complaint about how she faced unfair competition and should have placed higher in a fair race. She was trashed as a bigot because of this and forced to retract her comments. When Navratilova raised this exact same legitimate complaint about how the same would apply in tennis, she was trashed as a bigot and lost a sponsorship.

I don't know what the answer is to trans athletes wanting to compete as the gender they identify as, but I do know that calling calling one side of the issue a group of bigots and then not dealing with the matter is not that answer.

Well, as I started out the thread saying, the path of trans athletes competing as the identity they identify as leads to the end of "women's" sports.

If there's no biological definition of "woman" why have "women's sports"?

Just have "sports".

 

[ronburgundy]

The female athletes here do have a legitimate complaint

I think what you meant to say is if they complain they're transophobic transophobes.

Cause that's usually how the "debate" goes.

And therein lies the exact problem. The bronze medalist in the cycling article you linked to earlier had a legitimate complaint about how she faced unfair competition and should have placed higher in a fair race. She was trashed as a bigot because of this and forced to retract her comments. When Navratilova raised this exact same legitimate complaint about how the same would apply in tennis, she was trashed as a bigot and lost a sponsorship.

I don't know what the answer is to trans athletes wanting to compete as the gender they identify as, but I do know that calling calling one side of the issue a group of bigots and then not dealing with the matter is not that answer.

The problem is made more difficult by the fact that there are plenty of actual bigots who oppose trans rights out of simple bigotry but use these kinds of legitimate issues as cover. Their hateful mocking tone of transpeople exposes their true motives, as does their frequent anti-science claims that gender is binary and denial that transgender psychology is not a choice and is brain based with roots likely present at birth.

It's hard to get transpeople to approach these complex issues with sober reason, science, and consideration of fairness to others when they are constantly being attacked, and dehumanized by anti-science assholes rather than dealt with via open-minded sympathy for their predicament of what is ultimately a medical condition resulting from atypical hormone-influenced development.

 

[Jarhyn]

Or here's a novel idea: we leave "men's/women's" completely out of the discussion and instead shift the differentiation on the basis of testosterone use. Maybe 3-4 differentiations, ranging from no-limit to uninfluenced.

No-limit would essentially be "whatever testosterone you want, use it", and uninfluenced would require "never used/influenced by testosterone at all". And then 1-2 gradations between the two.

Because let's face it, talking about who was a "man" or a "woman" or whether someone has a "man-body" or a "woman-body" is arbitrary, subjective, and frankly is *offensive*, especially when the whole point is whether, and how, someone is exposed to hormones.

So instead of gendering shit and using a bad fucking proxy, just measure and base it off of the thing that is directly and *actually* affecting things.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I was wondering when this would come up.

(CNN)An LGBT group has cut ties with tennis great Martina Navratilova after she said it was a form of "cheating" for transgender women to be allowed to compete in women's sport.

New York-based Athlete Ally, which supports LGBT sportspeople, called the comments transphobic and removed the 18-time Grand Slam winner from its advisory board and as an ambassador.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/tenn...a-dropped-lgbt-group-scli-spt-intl/index.html

Personally, I don't think she's being transphobic. And I think the LGBT community/group is really overreacting and missing a huge opportunity to move their cause further.

I agree. Let the trans people have their own competitions. They're clearly doping. That's what hormone treatment is. Either we're fine with it, or we're not. If not, they shouldn't compete with those not on doping.