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Proposed California "ethnic studies" curriculum to teach that capitalism is oppressive ...

This whole discussion is predicated on the misunderstanding that all work is inherently useful work, and none is a consequence of the specific mode of production that prevails in a social context.

In the exact same way that a business owner is a hard-working risk-taker whose labor is required for anything to happen, the feudal lord whose management of the peasants under his rule enabled the coordinated production and distribution of their product was also a hard-working risk-taker, and I mean that with no irony. Under feudalism, moving into a new territory to establish a lordship and contend with the local farmers and their customs would have involved a degree of risk that was, for the landowner, at least comparable to the risk of a modern-day entrepreneur.

The same could have been said of an enterprising buyer of human beings in the pre-Civil War south, whose plantation needed to compete with the others in the region, forcing him to make strategic decisions about how many slaves to buy, how well to treat them, how to deal with escapees, and other calculations that involve a risk/reward judgement directly affecting his livelihood. This situation does not change if you imagine him owning slaves in ancient times, as city-states were constantly in conflict with one another in ways that would have made such dilemmas commonplace.

However, since those economic systems are mostly gone, and we have gained a moral consciousness that condemns both as fundamentally unjust, it would strike most people as regressive to say that the slave owner and the feudal lord were rightly positioned as the decision-makers in their respective operations because "they had the most skin in the game". We should recognize by now that even as their activities were characterized by taking risks that could possibly turn out badly for them, they did so by placing a much larger number of people in a situation of precariousness and servitude, leveraging imbalances of power and dependence in a way that turned out not to be required for the fulfillment of society's basic needs (since, as evidenced by the present day, those systems are no longer the norm in human civilization).

Capitalism is no different from the feudal or slave systems in this respect. Due entirely to the social constructions that have been agreed upon as how we reproduce the conditions for our existence, the roles of capitalist and employee are both integral. And indeed, because capitalists must constantly compete with one another in order to remain profitable, there is always pressure to do the same thing with fewer resources, or do something better with the same amount, and these approaches are undertaken as real risks by the owners of capital. The problem with giving this risk the status of inherently useful and worth prioritizing over the risk workers take when they sell their labor is twofold: (1) the risk taken by the capitalist is usually mitigated by, in part, damaging the workers by cutting wages, hours, benefits, etc. and (2) precisely as feudal and slave modes of production did not excuse the exploitation of serfs and chattel by appealing to the risks required of lords and masters, the exploitation of wage workers cannot be excused by appealing to the risks required of capitalists.

Every system under which society's goods and services are produced and distributed requires workers to risk their bodies and brains to some extent, largely dictated by the interests of who they work for (including themselves), but NOT every system needs a class of risk-takers called lords, masters, or capitalists. These are dispensable, wholly contingent roles that cannot justify their existence by pointing to whatever contingent social arrangements require them to behave as they do. The fact that raising wages for the majority of people or implementing widespread automation might, when passed through the filter of the ownership class, end up causing harm to the workers is an indictment of the system that produces such a circuit, not an endorsement of the people whose presence is only required because of it.
 
... I don't discount that need or value. I merely present a mechanism for fulfilling that need that is not "unending": that when investment is called due by investors in the form of dividends, some fraction of that ownership is lost to labor as a function of net profits extracted: that the extraction of surplus of labor that drives continued investment is limited by regulation by an equitable society.
Although the relative technical merits of expropriating investors incrementally versus wholesale are no doubt of considerable interest, enforcing conformity to the observance requirements of one of the local endemic religions isn't really a legitimate function of an equitable society's government. If a popular religion taught its adherents to disapprove of their gay neighbors' lifestyle, on account of gay sex stealing straight people's Qi, and they were arguing about whether prohibiting gay sex outright or alternately merely taxing it heavily enough to get their gay neighbors to not bone each other so often was the more appropriate way for straight people to preserve their Qi, you'd ask them if they had any empirical evidence for the existence of Qi, wouldn't you?

Do either of you have any empirical evidence that "value extraction" is a real thing?

Ok, so, you keep asking for proof value extraction is a thing, and we keep pointing out the fact that people who do no work are taking the surplus labor from people who do work. It happens. We don't accept the paradigm wherein the people who made a decision of who gets resources may be said to "own" both the resources and the value of things made by them.

We are human. ALL these rules about ownership and what "belongs" to whom are made up. They didn't exist until someone decided to try doing things that way and it kind-of-worked for some of them.

What do you not get about "workers have a right to be part of the conversation as to the meaning, implications, and permanence of ownership"?

Aren't you relying upon your own set of "made up" rules as justification for your notion the government mandate businesses give the workers a cut of the profits? Aren't you relying upon a set of "made up" rules as justification for taking some ownership from an owner and transferring the ownership to employees?

We are human. ALL these rules about ownership and what "belongs" to whom are made up.

Including the first Homo Sapien who picked an apple to eat and clubbed the Neanderthal who attempted to take the apple away. Including the hunting and gathering tribe that had settled in a particular area and treated the area, and its resources, as exclusively their own, defending any encroachments upon the area by others. It is but a truism some theory of acquisition of property is necessary, and any cogent theory will address notions of ownership, and this includes communal ownership/possession. Hume, Hobbes, Locke, Kant, Marx, and Nozick, to name a few, all spilled considerable ink addressing the issues surrounding the acquisition of property and when, or if, ownership should/does attach.

But so what? Why must a business owner today divest himself of a portion of his ownership to employees? Why isn't the business owner entitled to the same notion of private property right, that includes ownership?
 
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Do either of you have any empirical evidence that "value extraction" is a real thing?

Ok, so, you keep asking for proof value extraction is a thing, and we keep pointing out the fact that people who do no work are taking the surplus labor from people who do work. It happens.
Sorry, I guess my question wasn't clear. No, I'm not asking for proof value extraction is a thing. A proof is a deduction from axioms. What I'm asking for is empirical evidence -- some observation of the real world which would probably not be observed if "value extraction" were not a real thing. I already understood that the existence of value extraction follows deductively from your axioms; but since I have no reason to take for granted that your axioms are correct, a deductive proof won't really serve here. How can I measure "value"? How can I measure "extraction"?

(Alternately, if you still want to rely on your deductive proof, can you support your axioms? Do you have any empirical evidence that "taking the surplus labor" is a real thing? Do you have any empirical evidence that "surplus labor" is a real thing? How can I measure "surplus labor"? How can I measure "taking"?)

We don't accept the paradigm wherein the people who made a decision of who gets resources may be said to "own" both the resources
I get that; but it's your paradigm that's on trial here, not some other paradigm you oppose. California didn't hire a committee to make up a plan to tell teachers to tell children that the people who made a decision of who gets resources own them. If you want the state to order a captive audience to sit still and be taught about "value extraction" then it's on you to show "value extraction" is more scientific than "intelligent design" and "imbalance of bodily humors".

[digression]
and the value of things made by them.
Which paradigm is that? "The value of things" is no part of capitalism. It hasn't been for 140 years. When leftists talk about economics it's as surreal as when philosophers talk about physics -- it usually sounds as though they skipped out on the entire 20th century.[/digression]

[digression 2]
We are human. ALL these rules about ownership and what "belongs" to whom are made up. They didn't exist until someone decided to try doing things that way and it kind-of-worked for some of them.
I get that it's as much a made up rule as the others.
Except that it isn't.
How do you go about establishing which moral rules are "made up"? Are you a moral realist or an antirealist? Or is it moral realism for rules you favor and antirealism for ones you oppose?
[/digression 2]

What do you not get about "workers have a right to be part of the conversation as to the meaning, implications, and permanence of ownership"?
Huh? Where the heck did that come from? You're conversing, aren't you? I had to drag you into conversing, didn't I? I'm a worker, and I've been conversing with you, haven't I? Of course workers have a right to be part of the conversation as to the meaning, implications, and permanence of ownership. Where the heck did you see me suggest anything to the contrary? Where the heck did you see anybody* suggest anything to the contrary? Are you one of those folks who think somebody disagreeing with them and saying so means they're being excluded from the conversation?

(* Of course, socialist countries have a long history of keeping pro-capitalism workers out of the conversation. Trying to get into that conversation was an application for a one-way ticket to a gulag.)
 
Ok, so, you keep asking for proof value extraction is a thing, and we keep pointing out the fact that people who do no work are taking the surplus labor from people who do work. It happens. We don't accept the paradigm wherein the people who made a decision of who gets resources may be said to "own" both the resources and the value of things made by them.

We are human. ALL these rules about ownership and what "belongs" to whom are made up. They didn't exist until someone decided to try doing things that way and it kind-of-worked for some of them.

What do you not get about "workers have a right to be part of the conversation as to the meaning, implications, and permanence of ownership"?

Then go fairly starve to death.

The problem with your approach is that there needs to be some reason for people to allocate resources to creating the means of production. (Note that having the state do so has a very bad track record.) Remove the benefit of doing so and virtually none of it will happen and everyone will starve.
 
Ok, so, you keep asking for proof value extraction is a thing, and we keep pointing out the fact that people who do no work are taking the surplus labor from people who do work. It happens. We don't accept the paradigm wherein the people who made a decision of who gets resources may be said to "own" both the resources and the value of things made by them.

We are human. ALL these rules about ownership and what "belongs" to whom are made up. They didn't exist until someone decided to try doing things that way and it kind-of-worked for some of them.

What do you not get about "workers have a right to be part of the conversation as to the meaning, implications, and permanence of ownership"?

Then go fairly starve to death.

The problem with your approach is that there needs to be some reason for people to allocate resources to creating the means of production. (Note that having the state do so has a very bad track record.) Remove the benefit of doing so and virtually none of it will happen and everyone will starve.

Straw-man. I am not saying to remove it. I am saying to force those who benefit from doing it to continue working to continue seeing benefits. Else they can. Go fairly starve to death.
 
Can I just check who you mean. Presumably you aren't talking about people on unemployment welfare. You must be referring to the greedy capitalists who do no work. The thing is though, I'd say most business owners don't qualify as that; they're the sort of hard-working, risk-taking entrepreneurs that Harry Bosch has been talking about.



I get that it's as much a made up rule as the others.

Except that it isn't.

First, might does not make right. Nor does "having been there first".

First, we need to examine basic justification. On a fundamental level, basic justification is the idea that "I exist therefore I may". There are two ways of operating on this justification: social and solipsistic.

In the solipsistic mode, one ignores all others. I exist therefore I can do whatever the fuck I want (and so can anyone else). This paradigm is how serial killers and warlords happen. It is the fundamental basis for theft, conflict, parasitism, and all manner of behaviors we see in nature as fundamentally detrimental.

The other mode is "I may only do as others may do; if I prevent others I ought prevent myself." This invokes a restriction on self in the interest of peace. It is a treaty with the universe. But it also means a war between this mode and the solipsistic mode.

In the latter mode, the decision to deny others a seat at the table of decisions as to social paradigms is itself solipsistic on some level. It means a war, and an abandonment of this treaty.

This is not a made up rule that we have social inclusion, it is a direct requirement for peace to exist between people for the benefit of everyone.

Ok but none of that says anything about the 'rule' not being as made up as the others. It is as made up as the others. That's all I'm saying. It can't be otherwise. 'Rights' do not exist independently of those who think them up.
 
precisely as feudal and slave modes of production did not excuse the exploitation of serfs and chattel by appealing to the risks required of lords and masters, the exploitation of wage workers cannot be excused by appealing to the risks required of capitalists.

Ideological wibble. There is nothing inherently exploitative about someone running a business for profit paying other people a wage to help the business owner extract value.

Plus, full-on Socialism is pie in the sky. If it was actually, really a good idea it probably would have worked well somewhere by now.
 
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Better regulated than not, sure. But if you want equitable, then that has to be part of a larger struggle to eliminate the need for investors in the first place; their existence as a requirement of the system is the main barrier to an equitable society, not how much or how little they give back to labor.

Ideology at its finest. :)

Right on!

The trouble with ideologies is that no matter how different they are, the holders of a particular on think theirs is right on. :)
 
precisely as feudal and slave modes of production did not excuse the exploitation of serfs and chattel by appealing to the risks required of lords and masters, the exploitation of wage workers cannot be excused by appealing to the risks required of capitalists.

Ideological wibble. There is nothing inherently exploitative about someone running a business for profit paying other people a wage to help the business owner extract value.
Why not? What's the difference between owning someone and merely renting someone, when in both cases the person being utilized for labor is not in a position to refuse to provide it without risking his or her livelihood?

That's just by the colloquial definition of exploitation, but in terms of the technical one, exploitation of labor is the engine of all capitalist production; surplus value creation can only occur when workers transform raw materials into something useful to humans, and while this can take place with or without private ownership of the means of production, it cannot take place without workers. In order for the business owner to realize a profit, the workers cannot, as a matter of pure mathematics, be paid wages that reflect all of the value they create for the business owner. Some of that value must go towards recreating the production itself, some towards the board of directors, some towards taxation to maintain the infrastructure, some towards coercive force to protect inventory, some towards information-gathering on competitors, and so forth.

Marxism starts with the argument that all of these uses of productive surplus depend on workers doing waged work for part of their day and unwaged, free work for another part. During the first part, what they receive back as wages is commensurate with the value they create. During the second part, they work for no wages. For there to be more value when production is complete than simply the same that was started with but in a different form (and capitalism requires this to be the case), the workers must not be compensated for all of their work. The value they create when working for no wages is converted into money they have no claim to, and no say in how it gets spent. The "skin in the game", for workers, is high when the surplus they make is being used to automate them out of a raise, or offshore their workplace to save on costs; if they had control of the surplus instead of the business owner, would it get spent on those things? Or would it keep wages the same or higher while automating them towards more leisure time, for example?

Plus, full-on Socialism is pie in the sky. If it was actually, really a good idea it probably would have worked well somewhere by now.
You, me, and most of the Western world have been lied to our entire lives. I suggest you do some actual research. This page is an excellent place to start. Another one, larger but less organized (Google docs), can be found here. If you're averse to educating yourself on this topic, ask yourself why, and recall:

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Think how much more properous the world would be if we banned voluntary transactions and curtailed economic freedom!
 
Think how much more properous the world would be if we banned voluntary transactions and curtailed economic freedom!

Funny how 'economic freedom' never translates to 'freedom not to sell my labor for most hours of most days for most of my life or I'll starve' and always 'freedom for my boss to control every aspect of most of my waking existence'
 
Think how much more properous the world would be if we banned voluntary transactions and curtailed economic freedom!

Who opposes voluntary transactions? It's coerced and unequal exchanges that irk every leftist I have ever met.

If person A wants to accept a wage from person B to do certain work, why do you get to interfere in their relationship?
 
Think how much more properous the world would be if we banned voluntary transactions and curtailed economic freedom!

Who opposes voluntary transactions? It's coerced and unequal exchanges that irk every leftist I have ever met.

If person A wants to accept a wage from person B to do certain work, why do you get to interfere in their relationship?

PersonB is sitting on all the food and guns. Person A does not want to die. He takes whatever bargain that Person B offers, knowing his choices are work for Person B's offered wage, die of starvation, or die of bloodloss.
 
Think how much more properous the world would be if we banned voluntary transactions and curtailed economic freedom!

Who opposes voluntary transactions? It's coerced and unequal exchanges that irk every leftist I have ever met.

If person A wants to accept a wage from person B to do certain work, why do you get to interfere in their relationship?

I don't. What have I got to do with it? But they should both have an equal say on the terms of the exchange.
 
Right on!

The trouble with ideologies is that no matter how different they are, the holders of a particular on think theirs is right on. :)

...he said, as a person with no ideology since neoliberalism is definitely not an ideology with particular class interests

It's true that I might better have said dogma, not ideology, but I have no idea where you get that I'm neoliberal, or is anyone to the right of your extreme position a neoliberal all of a sudden? If so, see: dogma.
 
The people who say that free-market, laissez-faire, deregulated capiltaism is the best system are talking shite. The people who say that Socialism is the best system are talking shite. The best system is a blend. It's not rocket science.
 
But they should both have an equal say on the terms of the exchange.

What does that mean?

I don't know what was unclear? I think the most fair way to determine a wage would be a negotiated agreement between two equally empowered parties. And indeed, this is exactly how it works under capitalism.... if you've been born into considerable wealth. Salaries and other compensation are negotiated like business deals. This of course is nothing like what happens to most laborers, who have no power at all to define the value or terms of their work. Questioning either quality in any nontrivial sense results in immediate termination for all but the most privileged Americans. Perhaps it works differently in Ireland. When you were last hired to a permanent position, would you say that you had control over what sort of work you would be doing and what constituted fair compensation for that work? Not complete control, but effectively equal to that of your employer?
 
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