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'Mindless growth': Robust scientific case for degrowth is stronger every day

There are both politicians and economists who question our economic model of perpetual growth, but these appear to be few and far between.
Name one actual politician, let alone known one.

As I said, few and far between. I have heard an occasional interview where a politician has mentioned limits to growth, which was the basis of my comment....but I doubt that I could find it online.

Just offhand:

''A recent UK government committee indicates an emerging political willingness to at least challenge the growth paradigm as reflected in the title of the committee’s report: Prosperity without Growth? The report “questions whether ever-rising incomes for the already-rich are an appropriate goal for policy in a world constrained by ecological limits.”27,28

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winner in economics who had at first rejected LtG‘s ideas about resource shortages, now recognizes that present trends in the world economy are unsustainable.29 Stiglitz, along with another Nobel laureate in economics, Amartya Sen, headed a commission convened by French president Nicolas Sarkozy to investigate alternative measures of social progress to GDP. One of their key messages is that “the time is ripe for our measurement system to shift emphasis from measuring economic production to measuring people’s well-being.”30 In their critique of societies’ overreliance on GDP, Stiglitz and Sen are implicitly agreeing with LtG‘s analysis.''
 
There are both politicians and economists who question our economic model of perpetual growth, but these appear to be few and far between.
Name one actual politician, let alone known one.

As I said, few and far between. I have heard an occasional interview where a politician has mentioned limits to growth, which was the basis of my comment....but I doubt that I could find it online.

Just offhand:

''A recent UK government committee indicates an emerging political willingness to at least challenge the growth paradigm as reflected in the title of the committee’s report: Prosperity without Growth? The report “questions whether ever-rising incomes for the already-rich are an appropriate goal for policy in a world constrained by ecological limits.”27,28

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winner in economics who had at first rejected LtG‘s ideas about resource shortages, now recognizes that present trends in the world economy are unsustainable.29 Stieglitz, along with another Nobel laureate in economics, Amartya Sen, headed a commission convened by French president Nicolas Sarkozy to investigate alternative measures of social progress to GDP. One of their key messages is that “the time is ripe for our measurement system to shift emphasis from measuring economic production to measuring people’s well-being.”30 In their critique of societies’ overreliance on GDP, Stiglitz and Sen are implicitly agreeing with LtG‘s analysis.''

I accept Stiglitz and he is a big name and it's a bit ironic that such a smart man is so late in accepting the idea. It would have been better if it was a smaller name but who had been right from the get-go.
Same with Sarkozy, he is technically retired. I would like an active politician who would say "Economic growth is bullshit! Vote for me!"
 
Somehow this is like a worldwide version of Henrik Ibsen's "An Enemy of the People".

Not many people like a cassandra.
 
As I said, few and far between. I have heard an occasional interview where a politician has mentioned limits to growth, which was the basis of my comment....but I doubt that I could find it online.

Just offhand:

''A recent UK government committee indicates an emerging political willingness to at least challenge the growth paradigm as reflected in the title of the committee’s report: Prosperity without Growth? The report “questions whether ever-rising incomes for the already-rich are an appropriate goal for policy in a world constrained by ecological limits.”27,28

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winner in economics who had at first rejected LtG‘s ideas about resource shortages, now recognizes that present trends in the world economy are unsustainable.29 Stieglitz, along with another Nobel laureate in economics, Amartya Sen, headed a commission convened by French president Nicolas Sarkozy to investigate alternative measures of social progress to GDP. One of their key messages is that “the time is ripe for our measurement system to shift emphasis from measuring economic production to measuring people’s well-being.”30 In their critique of societies’ overreliance on GDP, Stiglitz and Sen are implicitly agreeing with LtG‘s analysis.''

I accept Stiglitz and he is a big name and it's a bit ironic that such a smart man is so late in accepting the idea. It would have been better if it was a smaller name but who had been right from the get-go.
Same with Sarkozy, he is technically retired. I would like an active politician who would say "Economic growth is bullshit! Vote for me!"

It won't happen.

My point was that politicians who voice concerns over the idea of perpetual growth are few and far between and that to have a politician even murmuring the words is astonishing.

It doesn't bode well for change.
 
As I said, few and far between. I have heard an occasional interview where a politician has mentioned limits to growth, which was the basis of my comment....but I doubt that I could find it online.

Just offhand:

''A recent UK government committee indicates an emerging political willingness to at least challenge the growth paradigm as reflected in the title of the committee’s report: Prosperity without Growth? The report “questions whether ever-rising incomes for the already-rich are an appropriate goal for policy in a world constrained by ecological limits.”27,28

Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize winner in economics who had at first rejected LtG‘s ideas about resource shortages, now recognizes that present trends in the world economy are unsustainable.29 Stieglitz, along with another Nobel laureate in economics, Amartya Sen, headed a commission convened by French president Nicolas Sarkozy to investigate alternative measures of social progress to GDP. One of their key messages is that “the time is ripe for our measurement system to shift emphasis from measuring economic production to measuring people’s well-being.”30 In their critique of societies’ overreliance on GDP, Stiglitz and Sen are implicitly agreeing with LtG‘s analysis.''

I accept Stiglitz and he is a big name and it's a bit ironic that such a smart man is so late in accepting the idea. It would have been better if it was a smaller name but who had been right from the get-go.
Same with Sarkozy, he is technically retired. I would like an active politician who would say "Economic growth is bullshit! Vote for me!"

It won't happen.
But it has to happen, someone has to start it.
 
It won't happen.
But it has to happen, someone has to start it.

Seeking approval and votes, Politicians have a tendency to tell people want they want to hear, even if they lie and deceive in the process.
Tendency? that's a very nice way to call 1st rule of politics.
What does the majority of the voting age population want? What do they want to hear?
Great politician should be able to go beyond the 1st rule of politics and convince majority of population to want a right thing.
 
Seeking approval and votes, Politicians have a tendency to tell people want they want to hear, even if they lie and deceive in the process.
Tendency? that's a very nice way to call 1st rule of politics.
What does the majority of the voting age population want? What do they want to hear?
Great politician should be able to go beyond the 1st rule of politics and convince majority of population to want a right thing.

True.....but will it happen? Can enough people be convinced? One side may argue for a stable, steady state economy that can provide for all citizens, meanwhile the opposition tries to scare the public with stories of loss of jobs, stagnation and decline if growth is not maintained.
 
Tendency? that's a very nice way to call 1st rule of politics.

Great politician should be able to go beyond the 1st rule of politics and convince majority of population to want a right thing.

True.....but will it happen? Can enough people be convinced?
Don't know, nobody tried.
One side may argue for a stable, steady state economy that can provide for all citizens, meanwhile the opposition tries to scare the public with stories of loss of jobs, stagnation and decline if growth is not maintained.
So? We don't have two side yet.
 
I thought talking about less resource consumption and also less population is racist now. I say this non sarcastically.

Which nation, ethnic or religious group will do this in the face of competition? Colonizer white nations should it, but they are rapidly filling up with the prevously colonized people (a mistake IMO, because as humans they hold a grudge).

As a kid seeing Soylent Green and other 70's dystopias on tv reruns and also reading about the "Limits to Growth" project by the Club of Rome and even seeing this part of The Wall (starting at two minutes in)



I have been in a low grade panic about about resource depletion every day of my teen and adult life. Not even kidding.


That's pretty common, and very sad - because it's all based on a single fact about humanity that was observably true, and deeply alarming, in the 1960s; But which ceased to be true due to an invention, and an idea, that both became reality at just that moment in time.

Since the dawn of the industrial age, human population had doubled and redoubled about every thirty years, despite massive die-offs due to disease, famine, and war.

But then in the 1960s, the contraceptive pill gave women the technological means to limit the number of children they bore; And the education and emancipation of women gave them the knowledge and desire to do so.

This took a few decades to have a significant effect, but by the mid 1990s it had become very clear that the "population bomb" had been defused. Today, world birth rates are below replacement level. The population isn't yet declining, but that's because the people who were born twenty or thirty years ago, when birth rates were still above replacement level, are more numerous than their parents, and so their children being born today are arriving at a faster rate than the (much smaller) grand and great-grand parental generation are dying off.

By about 2050, human population is projected to level off, somewhere between ten and twelve billion. That's a lot - it's four times the population a century earlier in 1950. But it's certainly not unmanageable - we already produce enough food for that many people today. Indeed, famine (common and widespread in the 1950s) has essentially ceased to exist. Back in the mid 1980s, Ethiopia suffered a terrible famine, and many commentators in the developed world said that this was inevitable, due to their excessive numbers. Today, Ethiopia has three times the population; And a few years ago, a similar drought. But no famine.

The reason? No war. Ethiopia can easily feed herself (or produce exports that are sufficient to purchase imported food, which is essentially the same thing). But not while it's a war zone.

Population was a problem. Past tense. Those who are still discussing it as something we need to solve are simply unaware that the solution was found sixty years ago, and has now been applied. There's nothing else left to do, but wait another few decades for the resolution to finish taking effect.

Worrying about population is unnecessary today; It's like worrying about the fact that you're still descending, after your parachute has deployed - yes, you're still falling, but it's no longer at a dangerous pace, and all you need do is relax and wait for the rest of the descent to be over. Screaming for someone to do something to save you is just needless panic.
 
That is an optimistic view....and hopefully it turns out as you describe, but because there are many factors at work, not the least being climate change, not all of us are quite that optimistic.
 
That is an optimistic view....and hopefully it turns out as you describe, but because there are many factors at work, not the least being climate change, not all of us are quite that optimistic.

It's not optimistic; It's just based on the actual demographic information that exists. ie It's the truth. It only looks like optimism to badly informed pessimists, of whom the world has no shortage.

Climate change is a whole other problem - and also one we have already got a solution for, but that uninformed pessimists won't allow us to implement.
 
What is it that "uniformed pessimist" don't allow to be implemented? I'd say that it's the so called pessimists that are calling for stronger action on climate and economic reform.
 
What is it that "uniformed pessimist" don't allow to be implemented? I'd say that it's the so called pessimists that are calling for stronger action on climate and economic reform.

Nuclear power.

The main arguments against it are fear based - yet in every such case, it is the safest option.
 
What is it that "uniformed pessimist" don't allow to be implemented? I'd say that it's the so called pessimists that are calling for stronger action on climate and economic reform.

Nuclear power.

The main arguments against it are fear based - yet in every such case, it is the safest option.
This mischaracterizes and oversimplifies the issue (a lot). Yes, there are a lot of people are stupidly against nuclear power. Those are far from limited to the 'pessimists', though. There is as much, or more, pushback from the ignorant middle class (ie, trump's base) and the political right in general that I suspect they may be a larger force against adopting nuclear than the environmental 'lefties'.

The right wing is way more environmentally destructive, policy wise, than the worst of the political left. The right pretends the problem doesn't exist. A lot on the left don't like the more obvious and practical solutions. That's a pretty big difference.
 
What is it that "uniformed pessimist" don't allow to be implemented? I'd say that it's the so called pessimists that are calling for stronger action on climate and economic reform.

Nuclear power.

The main arguments against it are fear based - yet in every such case, it is the safest option.
This mischaracterizes and oversimplifies the issue (a lot). Yes, there are a lot of people are stupidly against nuclear power. Those are far from limited to the 'pessimists', though. There is as much, or more, pushback from the ignorant middle class (ie, trump's base) and the political right in general that I suspect they may be a larger force against adopting nuclear than the environmental 'lefties'.

The right wing is way more environmentally destructive, policy wise, than the worst of the political left. The right pretends the problem doesn't exist. A lot on the left don't like the more obvious and practical solutions. That's a pretty big difference.

Sure. But I have covered the case for nuclear power in (excruciating) detail elsewhere on these boards. This isn't the time or place for a repeat of that detailed discussion, so an oversimplification is what you get.
 
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