Exposing Atheistic Myths

[skepticalbip]

^ ^
And then again, now seeing his fuck-up and being omnipotent and all what is his excuse for not fixing it? Humans are generally expected to straighten out their mistakes.

 

[Rhea]

He would be so fired in my factory. Definitely a "Not Meeting Expectations" rating.
So we're being told that the god of the bible is worse than the worst engineer in my entire factory?

Yikes. God must be really hoping that his followers just really don't know the first thing about him. Because their current definition is pretty unflattering.

 

[Learner]

It's Gods factory and He hasn't a bar or challenge to reach, since it was non-one elses rules or regulations, creation etc.. Well ok ... apart from the atheists who somehow, seem to devise the bar for failure and definition as the default from what they interpret in their minds from the scriptures. especially for debates - why yours and not ours? Any how... I think He would be quite Gracious to say it was His mistake... His own mistake, by His own judgement and understanding. He repents and grieves in HIs heart ...

Not an issue AT ALL!

 

[Learner]

^ ^
And then again, now seeing his fuck-up and being omnipotent and all what is his excuse for not fixing it? Humans are generally expected to straighten out their mistakes.

Not an issue at all, theres a 1st class upgrade ... see revelations.

 

[Keith&Co.]

It's Gods factory and He hasn't a bar or challenge to reach, since it was non-one elses rules or regulations, creation etc.. Well ok ... apart from the atheists who somehow, seem to devise the bar for failure and definition as the default from what they interpret in their minds from the scriptures. especially for debates - why yours and not ours?

no, Learner, we don't design the bar for failure.
We just evaluate your apologies for god's inconsistent performance against the exact same standards we face at work.
Seriously. YOU guys say god knows everything, including the future. If i had that on my resume, or my job description, i would be held responsible for however the project turned out. You keep shifting goalposts and making shit up to absolve the general operations director just because he's dupposed to be perfect.

Any how... I think He would be quite Gracious to say it was His mistake... His own mistake, by His own judgement and understanding. He repents and grieves in HIs heart ...

and then his solution was a MASSIVE kill-off... because righteous.

Not an issue AT ALL!

I notice you haven't described how one can turn off all knowingness, or why in the fuck one would think thsst was a good idea?
Or why it would make a problem he should have seen coming as a consequence not his fault?
Nope. Questions we cannot answer, we accuse the atheists of being biased against god.

 

[Keith&Co.]

^ ^
And then again, now seeing his fuck-up and being omnipotent and all what is his excuse for not fixing it? Humans are generally expected to straighten out their mistakes.

Not an issue at all, theres a 1st class upgrade ... see revelations.

Nope.
He did not fix the problem.
Nor did he forgive the kids for a problem HE caused to be.
But as flawed people, WE can be forgiven of HIS mistake by hewing to HIS rules. Why not just forgive us of the wickedness he created within us? Why shift the burden of salvation to us?

 

[Lion IRC]

There is an excellent program called "Closer To Truth" that explores among other things, theology and arguments for and against God. Narrated by Robert Lawrence Kuhn, this program has leading experts answer questions and lay out their arguments in nice, concise bite sized segments.

Of interest here is the doctrine of Divine Providence. That is, God's plan, God creates everything according to his will, and ancient dogma that is part and parcel of Christianity.

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/what-divine-providence

In this series, R.L. Kuhn asks 6 Christian theologians and philosophers how to reconcile divine providence and moral evil. These are all Christian thinkers, well educated, who themselves are university teachers of theology and philosophy. This is a very interesting series as these 6 Christian experts display a deer in the head lights response to Kuhn's gentle but sharp question as to how to reconcile these issues.

If an 'expert' Christian theologian can't manage to harmonize omnipotence and free will and the so-called problem evil/pain then they (and you) should stop calling themselves experts.

I find it startling that these supposed sophisticated experts seem to have not thought this through and had no ready apologisms or answers.

Me too.
Glad you clarified that they are only supposed sophisticated experts
You do agree that there are plenty of other Christian apologists (with more recognisable names) who would claim that they can do what you claim these 'deer in the headlights' struggled with.

For those of us who want to understand these issues, this is rather enlightening. I know of no theologians who can really answer this, and i have over many years read a lot of theologians.

I think you should rather say that you don't agree with theologians who CAN answer this.
And that you agree with those who can't.

Both Martin Luther and John Calvin stumble over the issue

Obviously. LOL.

and in the end, abandon reason and take refuge in "God is incomprehensible". John Calvin darkly tells us there are some things in theology we should not be allowed to think about.

If I was an atheist and an apologist told me God is incomprehensible and not to think about Him, I would shake their hand and say thanks.

The problem of evil and God's Providence are impossible to reconcile. These six little episodes of "Closer To Truth" are a real eye opener, an I recommend these episodes highly to demonstrate the problem.

The simultaneous existence of God and of evil proves that they are NOT mutually exclusive.

Loving parents knowingly allow their toddler children to play on playground equipment even though there is a 50/50 chance that whilst doing so, their child will fall over, bump their head, struggle and fail to make it all the way from one end of the monkey bars to the other end losing their hand grip.

How is this scenario not exactly like your 'irreconcilable' paradox?

The parent is all knowing. The parent is loving. The parent is powerful enough to prevent their child falling. The child has free will. Pain exists nonetheless when the child bumps their head. But you say this scenario is incomprehensible. You say there's no way a loving parent would build a playground then allow their child to play on it and get hurt.

 

[Learner]

no, Learner, we don't design the bar for failure.
We just evaluate your apologies for god's inconsistent performance against the exact same standards we face at work.
Seriously. YOU guys say god knows everything, including the future. If i had that on my resume, or my job description, i would be held responsible for however the project turned out. You keep shifting goalposts and making shit up to absolve the general operations director just because he's dupposed to be perfect.

Revelations IS a prophecy and forecast ... the program is set on auto and these are not goal posts moving but rather theists studying and learning new things - without conflicting previous understand that God knows all. I fail to see the contradiction you're talking about.

and then his solution was a MASSIVE kill-off... because righteous.

Not an issue AT ALL!

I notice you haven't described how one can turn off all knowingness, or why in the fuck one would think thsst was a good idea?
Or why it would make a problem he should have seen coming as a consequence not his fault?
Nope. Questions we cannot answer, we accuse the atheists of being biased against god.

Well I can't tell you what size shoes He'd be wearing either!

 

[Learner]

Nope.
He did not fix the problem ...

YET

Nor did he forgive the kids for a problem HE caused to be.
But as flawed people, WE can be forgiven of HIS mistake by hewing to HIS rules. Why shift the burden of salvation to us?

He forgives man for turning their back against God for worshipping lesser entities or dancing around lumps of carved wood, IF ...they repent from the wickedness introduced by the fallen and hold to the Goodness within, that God gave each man.

 

[skepticalbip]

It's Gods factory and He hasn't a bar or challenge to reach, since it was non-one elses rules or regulations, creation etc.. Well ok ... apart from the atheists who somehow, seem to devise the bar for failure and definition as the default from what they interpret in their minds from the scriptures. especially for debates - why yours and not ours? Any how... I think He would be quite Gracious to say it was His mistake... His own mistake, by His own judgement and understanding. He repents and grieves in HIs heart ...

Not an issue AT ALL!

We apparently have a different understanding of the word, repent. You apparently see repentance as an, "Aw, shucks. My fault. Sorry about that" then walking away and forgetting about it. My understanding of the word is that it not only requires accepting responsibility, expressing the regret, and also requires atonement. Leaving billions to suffer in hell for his mistake is hardly atonement.

As I see the dilemma, god (if there is one) just isn't the tri-omni being that Christians paint him to be. He would either have to have limited abilities or be a real sadistic bastard.

 

[DBT]

Cheerful Charlie claims that there's some impossible paradox of omnipotence and free will and omniscience and theodicy and omnibenevolence and omnipresence etc etc.

But he hasn't demonstrated this is necessarily the case.

What is free will?

He doesn't have to answer that, if he's not willing to.

It's how the 'want' is formed that determines the following action, which does not relate to omniscience because with omniscience nothing can form in terms of want that was not always known, nor are there any decisions to be made.- decisions implying uncertainty, this option over that option.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'd bet most experiences of God aren't hallucinations. They can be as homely as what many would describe as "the warm fuzzies". An effusive feeling of love or wonder that makes one bubble over in a state of joy can be attributed to "the Holy Spirit moves me!" or "the love of Jesus fills my heart". There's no hallucination, just hyperbole. Then their misattribution of unusual states to God or Jesus becomes confirmation they're real.

Same with coincidences. Little "miracles" in life that would be best explained as fortunate coincidences turn into a proof of God's hand in things. A natural explanation feels (needlessly) like it takes the wonderfulness out of the coincidence. Since it's an experience that happened to a religious person, it becomes a "religious experience".

So, be aware of the likelihood of extreme hyperbole when they reference their religious experiences.

A former co-worker is a very religious person. We were performing a typical inspection on an order that contained 40 pieces, all identical. We would measure one piece and visually inspect the remaining pieces for completeness. He grabbed one piece and it was incomplete, but all the other pieces were complete. Only the first one he picked up had a dimension that was unfinished! This is very unusual.

He came to me in a state of amazement. He said, "What are the chances I would have picked up the one piece that was not finished? That's a million to one!! So I calmly said, the odds are forty to one because there are 40 pieces. Talk about a look of disappointment, knocked him right of miracle-witnessing-land.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Revelations IS a prophecy and forecast ... the program is set on auto and these are not goal posts moving but rather theists studying and learning new things - without conflicting previous understand that God knows all. I fail to see the contradiction you're talking about.

When YOU try to have your tri-omni god, but weasel out from recognizing that a god who knows everything that is about to happen would have to knowingly put himself into a position of regret.
Where did you get the idea he could turnnnoff a trait yhat makes him The Almighty...i ask yet again?

and then his solution was a MASSIVE kill-off... because righteous.
I notice you haven't described how one can turn off all knowingness, or why in the fuck one would think thsst was a good idea?
Or why it would make a problem he should have seen coming as a consequence not his fault?
Nope. Questions we cannot answer, we accuse the atheists of being biased against god.

Well I can't tell you what size shoes He'd be wearing either!

oh, what a remarkable refutation of my thesis. Except it isn't.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's Gods factory and He hasn't a bar or challenge to reach, since it was non-one elses rules or regulations, creation etc.. Well ok ... apart from the atheists who somehow, seem to devise the bar for failure and definition as the default from what they interpret in their minds from the scriptures. especially for debates - why yours and not ours? Any how... I think He would be quite Gracious to say it was His mistake... His own mistake, by His own judgement and understanding. He repents and grieves in HIs heart ...

Not an issue AT ALL!

Something proclaims all of humanity evil, murders all of humanity, men, women, children, infants, the infirmed, then says "I'm sorry, worship me anyway." There are no words I know that adequately describe the evil of doing such a thing. What was the murderer afraid of? It's like me killing every animal on the planet because a dog shit on the sidewalk.

That's a very, very, very, very, sick and dangerous murderer.

 

[Lion IRC]

I'd bet most experiences of God aren't hallucinations. They can be as homely as what many would describe as "the warm fuzzies". An effusive feeling of love or wonder that makes one bubble over in a state of joy can be attributed to "the Holy Spirit moves me!" or "the love of Jesus fills my heart". There's no hallucination, just hyperbole. Then their misattribution of unusual states to God or Jesus becomes confirmation they're real.

Same with coincidences. Little "miracles" in life that would be best explained as fortunate coincidences turn into a proof of God's hand in things. A natural explanation feels (needlessly) like it takes the wonderfulness out of the coincidence. Since it's an experience that happened to a religious person, it becomes a "religious experience".

So, be aware of the likelihood of extreme hyperbole when they reference their religious experiences.

A former co-worker is a very religious person. We were performing a typical inspection on an order that contained 40 pieces, all identical. We would measure one piece and visually inspect the remaining pieces for completeness. He grabbed one piece and it was incomplete, but all the other pieces were complete. Only the first one he picked up had a dimension that was unfinished! This is very unusual.

He came to me in a state of amazement. He said, "What are the chances I would have picked up the one piece that was not finished? That's a million to one!! So I calmly said, the odds are forty to one because there are 40 pieces. Talk about a look of disappointment, knocked him right of miracle-witnessing-land.

Is that really only 1 in 40?

I think you're overlooking the fact that there are a LOT more than 40 combinations of ways you can stack 40 widgets (think 40-sided rubics cube.) The defective part didn't have to be the very same one closest at hand - the first one he picked.



Your co-worker wasn't blindfolded and randomly selecting one coloured ball from a bag of 40.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'd bet most experiences of God aren't hallucinations. They can be as homely as what many would describe as "the warm fuzzies". An effusive feeling of love or wonder that makes one bubble over in a state of joy can be attributed to "the Holy Spirit moves me!" or "the love of Jesus fills my heart". There's no hallucination, just hyperbole. Then their misattribution of unusual states to God or Jesus becomes confirmation they're real.

Same with coincidences. Little "miracles" in life that would be best explained as fortunate coincidences turn into a proof of God's hand in things. A natural explanation feels (needlessly) like it takes the wonderfulness out of the coincidence. Since it's an experience that happened to a religious person, it becomes a "religious experience".

So, be aware of the likelihood of extreme hyperbole when they reference their religious experiences.

A former co-worker is a very religious person. We were performing a typical inspection on an order that contained 40 pieces, all identical. We would measure one piece and visually inspect the remaining pieces for completeness. He grabbed one piece and it was incomplete, but all the other pieces were complete. Only the first one he picked up had a dimension that was unfinished! This is very unusual.

He came to me in a state of amazement. He said, "What are the chances I would have picked up the one piece that was not finished? That's a million to one!! So I calmly said, the odds are forty to one because there are 40 pieces. Talk about a look of disappointment, knocked him right of miracle-witnessing-land.

Is that really only 1 in 40?

I think you're overlooking the fact that there are a LOT more than 40 combinations of ways you can stack 40 widgets (think 40-sided rubics cube.) The defective part didn't have to be the very same one closest at hand.

Your co-worker wasn't blindfolded and randomly selecting one coloured ball from a bag of 40.

But the defective one could only be in one of forty places. How the remaining 39 were arranged with respect to it and each other is irrelevant.

 

[Lion IRC]

In a stack of 40 objects the defective one can be closer or further from the first position selected - closest at hand for the coworker to select.

 

[skepticalbip]

In a stack of 40 objects the defective one can be closer or further from the first position selected - closest at hand

Again, the defective one can only be in one of forty places. That means a one in 40 chance that it will be the one selected.

 

[Lion IRC]

No.
Go away and think about it and come back later.
Or maybe someone can mssg you privately to explain.

 

[skepticalbip]

Go away and think about it and come back later.
Or maybe someone can mssg you privately to explain.