Like what’s in store for you in heaven, right?
- Bad things happen because we have free will
- No bad things happen in heaven
- Therefore the is no free will n heaven
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Exposing Atheistic Myths
- Thread starter Half-Life
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Like what’s in store for you in heaven, right?
bilby
Fair dinkum thinkum
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The final arrangement of a stack of forty objects has forty positions in which the single defective object might be located. There's exactly a one in forty chance that the defective object will be in any given position. The odds are one in forty that the defective object is the top one in the stack.
This is really simple stuff.
Cheerful Charlie
Contributor
Well, no. As I demonstrated, if God is omnipotent and creates all God cannot create a world where man has free will. Compatibilism is dead. Any choice God makes as a starting state of creation will determine all future actualized states of existence. Whether an sentient being God creates is on Earth, some distant planet, heaven or hell.
Any number of theologians have admitted this is true, for example, Peter Inwagen in his 2008 Gifford lectures.
DBT
Contributor
Feelings and thoughts are not willed into consciousness, neither is will - which is the urge or impulse to act.
Will, the urge or impulse to act, like feelings and thoughts is a response to stimuli....you read this post and you get a set of feelings and thoughts emerging in your conscious mind followed by the impulse/urge to respond or ignore, whatever the case may be.
Will is not free, it cannot be free, it is caused by underlying information processing milliseconds before conscious experience.
So again, we know that we have will, that we experience will....but what exactly is 'free will?' How does that work?
Atheos
Veteran Member
At best we humans get to enjoy the illusion of free will. If an omniscient god exists it already knows everything it's ever going to do. It's just along for the ride, helpless to change its mind about anything. It's the most impotent being imaginable. I'd feel sorry for it if it existed.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
If free will theology was being born today it would likely have some trendy title like quantum consciousness. For a believer free will is only about human behavior, but human behavior exists within the same physical laws as every other behavior, living and not.
Free will and nihilism are the two whispering fairies that underpin much of religious thought.
James Brown
Veteran Member
If there's free will in Heaven, then eventually someone will choose evil, and Heaven will turn into the fallen world that is Earth.
Saying "Everyone in Heaven wanted to be there so they'll always choose good," fails on two counts.
Number One, it seems unlikely that, over enough time, every single resident will always choose the right thing. Look at people here on Earth. Someone decides they really really want to join the military, and after some time are punished for some infraction. A student dreams of landing a position in a particular school, but if his expectations are unmet he breaks a rule. And don't people commit evil all the while thinking that they are doing the right thing?
Number Two, if the evangelicals are right, then lots of people are taken to Heaven against their free will, such as the mentally handicapped, or children who die before the Age of Accountability. Thus they will find themselves in exactly the same scenario as they find themselves here on Earth--born without consultation into a world that they don't recognize or understand, having to learn the rules of society by trial-and-error.
Of course, all of this can be solved if we give newly-arrived residents of Heaven a lobotomy, so that they no longer have the ability to choose evil. But that's just another way of saying, "We're taking away your free will so that you don't wipe your muddy feet on our carpeting here."
Saying "Everyone in Heaven wanted to be there so they'll always choose good," fails on two counts.
Number One, it seems unlikely that, over enough time, every single resident will always choose the right thing. Look at people here on Earth. Someone decides they really really want to join the military, and after some time are punished for some infraction. A student dreams of landing a position in a particular school, but if his expectations are unmet he breaks a rule. And don't people commit evil all the while thinking that they are doing the right thing?
Number Two, if the evangelicals are right, then lots of people are taken to Heaven against their free will, such as the mentally handicapped, or children who die before the Age of Accountability. Thus they will find themselves in exactly the same scenario as they find themselves here on Earth--born without consultation into a world that they don't recognize or understand, having to learn the rules of society by trial-and-error.
Of course, all of this can be solved if we give newly-arrived residents of Heaven a lobotomy, so that they no longer have the ability to choose evil. But that's just another way of saying, "We're taking away your free will so that you don't wipe your muddy feet on our carpeting here."
Learner
Veteran Member
The Heaven on both counts in your post doesn't seem to have God in either of them. It seems your idea of Heaven is modelled on, and run by humans in just the same way it is, in this world. Your own observations and experience of this world, you've made as a template for heaven. However both of those counts may not be put to waste, if we were to take this to be a projection of the future where humans could be living on Mars, out-there above the heavenly skies.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
Heaven certainly contained evil and free will. Weren't angels cast out and placed into hell because of their actions?
Mankind's original Paradise contained free will and evil. Mankind was then cast out and made to suffer for his behavior.
You are saying that your higher being was not present in either place. Please explain.
Learner
Veteran Member
I think you have to use more than "basic" logic. Dissecting theses words and getting into all sorts of philosophies only to complicate things when the use of these words were perfectly fine in the first place. I'm sure you agree with me that our fellow theists should stop falling for it or realise its not an argument as such.
Learner
Veteran Member
Good points.
That was not in Gods Kingdom/realm but below that (around where the watchers are/were). To the New heaven and New earth. Those rebellious angels won't be there nor the evil. (As I understand it)
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I just want to reflect and see if I understand what you are saying...
Are you saying that there IS a heaven, a new one, and that no evil happens there, and humans are there, with full “Free Will” but they never have, never do and never will choose evil there. And you are now adding, that this is because in THIS heaven, God is actually there, unlike the previous heaven and the original paradise?
Please correct me wherever I am wrong. My intent in this post is to make sure I understand your claim.
Learner
Veteran Member
You have been in quite a few debates, but I am surprised you didn't notice the New Heaven(s) and New Earth replaces the old ones is in revelations, which also says there'd be no evil ... suffering, tears or pain.
There are different levels or realms of heaven like where the watchers lurk above the earth (Gods realm is ultimately the top above all) and.... for example, when Michael had to fight his way through the realm (of the rebelious not doubt - where Jesus sees the dragon fall from) to assist Gabriel (Daniel: 10).
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southernhybrid
Contributor
Why would any rational person even want to spend eternity with people who are judged by their beliefs and not by their character? All of this reminds me of a line from the original version of the movie "Bedazzled". Lucifer is explains to Dudley Moore's character, ( I think ) how he lost Mussolini. After spending so many years trying to influence him to do Satan's work, just before Mussolini died, he asked forgiveness and "up he went".
I guess "one man's. heaven is another man's hell".
In fact, it was conversations similar to some of the one's here by Christians that are the very reason, I gave up my Christian beliefs while attending a conservative Christian college in 1968. The more I listened to the arguments, the more it became obvious to me that all this talk of heaven, hell, being saved, Revelations prophecies etc. made me realize that I had been duped.
I didn't even have to read a science book to consider the irrational claims made by Christianity. All I had to do is listen intently to other Christians in order to understand the fallacy of their beliefs. Of course, as one who later rejected the concept of free will, it's also easy for me to understand why it's so difficult for some to deny the beliefs that have given them a sense of emotional security. Thanks Christians for helping me see the light!
I guess "one man's. heaven is another man's hell".
In fact, it was conversations similar to some of the one's here by Christians that are the very reason, I gave up my Christian beliefs while attending a conservative Christian college in 1968. The more I listened to the arguments, the more it became obvious to me that all this talk of heaven, hell, being saved, Revelations prophecies etc. made me realize that I had been duped.
I didn't even have to read a science book to consider the irrational claims made by Christianity. All I had to do is listen intently to other Christians in order to understand the fallacy of their beliefs. Of course, as one who later rejected the concept of free will, it's also easy for me to understand why it's so difficult for some to deny the beliefs that have given them a sense of emotional security. Thanks Christians for helping me see the light!
The bible jumps around quite a bit and I have noticed that various believers believe various things as real, allegory, parable or not divine. My question is to specifically find out what YOU are saying, since there is no expectation that it will match what any other bible-reader is saying.
But you think there will be Free Will there, and no one will ever use it to do evil, either deliberately or accidentally. Nor will the exercise of Free Will ever cause tears or pain even without evil, such as unrequited love.
Is that accurate?
And fetuses will go there when they are miscarried, as well as child abusers who regret their crimes (in a specific ritualistic way), alongside the victims of those crimes and the parents of the victims of those crimes?
And all of the people who have ever sinned (presumably ALL, including the fetuses,) none of whom will ever sin again, but only because in free will, the now choose differently - and NOT because anything was done to them to change their nature (because that would not be full Free Will, right?)
Do I have that right?
This is a separate discussion, in my mind, since it desperately requires the question - “why would god create that?” So I’ll put that aside and just focus on the final special new heaven.
And further question: how do you know about the nature of this fial special new heaven, by the way? Who is the source in the bible of this knowledge? (Genuine question, I don’t memorize who wrote this bit, asking you to tell me so I don’t have to go look it up. Bible Gateway already thinks I’m, like, a Dr. of Divinity candidate)
Learner
Veteran Member
Why would any rational person even want to spend eternity with people who are judged by their beliefs and not by their character?
All of this reminds me of a line from the original version of the movie "Bedazzled". Lucifer is explains to Dudley Moore's character, ( I think ) how he lost Mussolini. After spending so many years trying to influence him to do Satan's work, just before Mussolini died, he asked forgiveness and "up he went".
I guess "one man's. heaven is another man's hell".
In fact, it was conversations similar to some of the one's here by Christians that are the very reason, I gave up my Christian beliefs while attending a conservative Christian college in 1968. The more I listened to the arguments, the more it became obvious to me that all this talk of heaven, hell, being saved, Revelations prophecies etc. made me realize that I had been duped.
I didn't even have to read a science book to consider the irrational claims made by Christianity. All I had to do is listen intently to other Christians in order to understand the fallacy of their beliefs. Of course, as one who later rejected the concept of free will, it's also easy for me to understand why it's so difficult for some to deny the beliefs that have given them a sense of emotional security. Thanks Christians for helping me see the light!
That doesn't sound right as I understand it e.g. The meek shall inherit the earth, by their character, what God sees in their hearts.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Yes Rhea there'd be free will there, catch up later.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
So the difference between two heavens is that one heaven contains evil and one heaven does not. What then is a heaven?
southernhybrid
Contributor
Why would any rational person even want to spend eternity with people who are judged by their beliefs and not by their character?
All of this reminds me of a line from the original version of the movie "Bedazzled". Lucifer is explains to Dudley Moore's character, ( I think ) how he lost Mussolini. After spending so many years trying to influence him to do Satan's work, just before Mussolini died, he asked forgiveness and "up he went".
I guess "one man's. heaven is another man's hell".
In fact, it was conversations similar to some of the one's here by Christians that are the very reason, I gave up my Christian beliefs while attending a conservative Christian college in 1968. The more I listened to the arguments, the more it became obvious to me that all this talk of heaven, hell, being saved, Revelations prophecies etc. made me realize that I had been duped.
I didn't even have to read a science book to consider the irrational claims made by Christianity. All I had to do is listen intently to other Christians in order to understand the fallacy of their beliefs. Of course, as one who later rejected the concept of free will, it's also easy for me to understand why it's so difficult for some to deny the beliefs that have given them a sense of emotional security. Thanks Christians for helping me see the light!
That doesn't sound right as I understand it e.g. The meek shall inherit the earth, by their character, what God sees in their hearts.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Yes Rhea there'd be free will there, catch up later.
You're confusing me a little. I was taught that all one had to do is honestly ask forgiveness from their sins and Jesus would save them from eternal suffering.
My husband is a former Catholic. Catholics are more concerned with sinning, although some of what they consider to be sins are totally insane, ie. masturbation for example. But, at least Catholics get to go to purgatory if they are bad. If they confess sincerely to their priests before they die, that's supposed to help and I'm not sure if hell is ever eternal in the Catholic religion. Maybe only the worst sinners spend a lot of time in hell. Perhaps they are being rehabilitated, like the prison system is supposed to do. That at least sounds a little kinder than the evangelical version of the afterlife. I'm pretty sure that the current pope said that even atheists have a chance to make it to heaven. That makes a lot more sense to me than what conservative protestant sects believe.
If god judges people by their character, why should it matter what people believe? I don't belief there is any afterlife, but it's interesting to me to hear how those who actually believe in one, perceive it. I realize that you are involved in several conversations, so I'm patient.