Discipline for children

[Davka]

I would be delighted to discuss this topic with an intellectual adversary who is willing to use neutral language and refrain from loaded question-begging. Unfortunately, I almost never encounter such individuals when the topic has a strong emotional component.

 

[prideandfall]

I would be delighted to discuss this topic with an intellectual adversary who is willing to use neutral language and refrain from loaded question-begging. Unfortunately, I almost never encounter such individuals when the topic has a strong emotional component.

cite one single example in all of Western culture where what you're advocating doing to children wouldn't be called assault if you did it to an adult, and we can change the entire conversation.

until you can do that, it's not 'the others' being emotional in their language or hampering an intellectual discussion, it's you actively denying humanity to children.

 

[Davka]

because you're blithely and casually advocating that not only is violence against the most defenseless and vulnerable in our out species the right thing to do, but that it would be wrong to not assault them.

Don't put words in my mouth. It's not only insulting, it's a violation of the TOU.

I spanked my kids. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my children.

so you're telling me that if i pull you off the street and dropped your pants and hit you in order to teach you a lesson that i decided you needed to learn, but didn't "lash out" or "beat" you, that you would find this completely acceptable?

Are you saying that nobody should ever use any physical contact whatsoever with another human being? You're telling me that we all must maintain physical distance from one-another at all times, and that all physical contact is abuse, right?

see, two can play that game. It's pointless, juvenile, and frankly insulting.

Seeing the world in black-and-white is what a child does. An adult reasons.

an adult also doesn't use violence as a scare tactic and an adult doesn't go out of their way to physically assault the most helpless of us, who also by the way trust you implicitly and are the most physically destroyed by your actions.

Unless you are willing to drop the deliberately insulting, inflamed rhetoric, we're done here. I don't bother debating closed-minded demagogues.

 

[Davka]

I would be delighted to discuss this topic with an intellectual adversary who is willing to use neutral language and refrain from loaded question-begging. Unfortunately, I almost never encounter such individuals when the topic has a strong emotional component.

cite one single example in all of Western culture where what you're advocating doing to children wouldn't be called assault if you did it to an adult, and we can change the entire conversation.

until you can do that, it's not 'the others' being emotional in their language or hampering an intellectual discussion, it's you actively denying humanity to children.

We deprive children of all sorts of rights that adults have. Children cannot buy alcohol, or tobacco. Children cannot vote, or drive a car. Children are not allowed to live on their own. Why is that? If we deprived an adult of these things, it would be illegal.

You're either going to have to advocate that children be treated as adults in ALL areas, or admit that children and adults are fundamentally different, and that treating them differently is a rational expression and outcome of that difference. Your emotion-laden, closed-minded bigoted (and frankly silly) argument is fatally flawed.

 

[Frikki]

You can't use your words when you are frustraited and the smartest thing you can come up with is lashing out with violence. This is what a child does. An adult reasons.

More bullshit.

People, we're supposed to be well-reasoned, freethinking, intelligent humans here. Why is it that on this particular subject, the enormous, unfathomably complex Universe of nuanced shades of grey suddenly becomes a tiny self-righteous bubble of black-and-white?

I spanked my kids. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my children.

Seeing the world in black-and-white is what a child does. An adult reasons.

Let´s see how this works.

"I hit my wife. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my spouse."

"I hit my dog. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my pet."

I spanked the autistic man I was taking care of. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" him.

Why treat children different?

P.S. Hitting a child because you are impotent when it comes to modifying it´s behavior, is the definition of lashing out with violence.

 

[Davka]

More bullshit.

People, we're supposed to be well-reasoned, freethinking, intelligent humans here. Why is it that on this particular subject, the enormous, unfathomably complex Universe of nuanced shades of grey suddenly becomes a tiny self-righteous bubble of black-and-white?

I spanked my kids. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my children.

Seeing the world in black-and-white is what a child does. An adult reasons.

Let´s see how this works.

"I hit my wife. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my spouse."

"I hit my dog. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my pet."

I spanked the autistic man I was taking care of. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" him.

Why treat children different.

Nice try, but your inability to discuss nuance and shades of grey is keeping you from exercising logic.

There is a reason that our languages contain words such as "poke," "pat," "slap," "prod," "spank," "punch," "beat," and so on. Snow is not rain. Sex is not rape. Spanking is not beating. Discipline is not punishment. Masturbation is not adultery.

The "all spanking is abuse" crowd is no different from any extremist fundamentalist crowd. Jeebus says that the "sin" of masturbation is no different from committing genocide, and the consequences for both are the same. This sort of irrational refusal to acknowledge nuance makes rational discussion impossible.

 

[rousseau]

Yep, we now have a situation where assaulting kids is, unfortunately, normalized. *Everyone doing it* doesn't make it rational.

The issue really comes down to child psychology:

1) Do kids really understand why they're being hit?
2) Does assaulting your kid actually deter them from other behaviour that you deem to be wrong?
3) Do you realize that there is a discrepancy between what your kid knows is wrong, and what you feel is wrong?
4) If there is a discrepancy, do you realize that the situation doesn't need punishing, it needs explaining?
5) Do you realize if you're hitting a kid any they don't understand why, you may actually be traumatizing them?
6) Are there better, more effective ways of dealing with behavioral issues?

 

[Davka]

Yep, we now have a situation where assaulting kids

Fail.

Try again.

 

[Frikki]

Let´s see how this works.

"I hit my wife. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my spouse."

"I hit my dog. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my pet."

I spanked the autistic man I was taking care of. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" him.

Why treat children different.

Nice try, but your inability to discuss nuance and shades of grey is keeping you from exercising logic.

There is a reason that our languages contain words such as "poke," "pat," "slap," "prod," "spank," "punch," "beat," and so on. Snow is not rain. Sex is not rape. Spanking is not beating. Discipline is not punishment. Masturbation is not adultery.

The "all spanking is abuse" crowd is no different from any extremist fundamentalist crowd. Jeebus says that the "sin" of masturbation is no different from committing genocide, and the consequences for both are the same. This sort of irrational refusal to acknowledge nuance makes rational discussion impossible.

Ok.

So is it ok to "spank" a developmentally disabled adult that is in your care?

 

[rousseau]

Let´s see how this works.

"I hit my wife. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my spouse."

"I hit my dog. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my pet."

I spanked the autistic man I was taking care of. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" him.

Why treat children different.

Nice try, but your inability to discuss nuance and shades of grey is keeping you from exercising logic.

There is a reason that our languages contain words such as "poke," "pat," "slap," "prod," "spank," "punch," "beat," and so on. Snow is not rain. Sex is not rape. Spanking is not beating. Discipline is not punishment. Masturbation is not adultery.

The "all spanking is abuse" crowd is no different from any extremist fundamentalist crowd. Jeebus says that the "sin" of masturbation is no different from committing genocide, and the consequences for both are the same. This sort of irrational refusal to acknowledge nuance makes rational discussion impossible.

Definition of assult from dictionary.com:

- a physical attack

"poke," "pat," "slap," "prod," "spank," "punch," "beat," are all physical attacks at varying degrees of intensity. Just because you're not seriously injuring your kid, doesn't make it not assault.

 

[Playball40]

Technically spanking is not really discipline, it's punishment. Discipline is "to teach". Spanking is only "teaching" to be afraid and distrustful of adults.

Nonsense. When a puppy is smacked with a rolled-up newspaper for piddling on the floor, that's called "training." It's not punishment, it's teaching. Young animals of all species can be taught pretty much the same way.

Discipline is the process of teaching a child the
difference between acceptable and unacceptable
behavior. Good discipline should be a positive force
focusing on what a child is allowed to do. The goal
of discipline is to help a child change impulsive,
random behavior into controlled, purposeful behavior,
and discipline should be reinforced with teaching,
firmness, and reminders.

Punishment often has little or no effect on the
misbehavior, and takes the responsibility for the
misbehavior away from the child. Children need to be
accountable for their own behavior in order to learn
the inner control necessary to function as healthy,
self-disciplined individuals. A child who is punished
with spankings, shouts, and threats may learn how to
avoid these punishments simply by not misbehaving
in that particular way within sight of the person who
punishes.

http://www.cehd.umn.edu/ceed/publications/questionsaboutkids/disciplineenglish.pdf

and for good measure, you shouldn't hit a puppy either.

One of the key issues in housebreaking is to follow Rule Number One: If you do not catch your puppy doing it, then do not punish him for it! We do not care what someone else may tell you or what you read, if you find a mess that was left when you were not there, clean it up and forget it.

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=21+1276&aid=157

 

[rousseau]

Yep, we now have a situation where assaulting kids

Fail.

Try again.

How about you stop your tirade and respond to my actual post.

 

[Playball40]

You can't use your words when you are frustraited and the smartest thing you can come up with is lashing out with violence. This is what a child does. An adult reasons.

More bullshit.

People, we're supposed to be well-reasoned, freethinking, intelligent humans here. Why is it that on this particular subject, the enormous, unfathomably complex Universe of nuanced shades of grey suddenly becomes a tiny self-righteous bubble of black-and-white?

I spanked my kids. I never, ever "lashed out with violence" or "beat" my children.

Seeing the world in black-and-white is what a child does. An adult reasons.

And many people did in the day. Doesn't make it right or effective. One of the great things about being able to think is to study the research, which clearly states hitting a child is NOT a useful method of discipline. Back in the day, women took castor oil to induce labor....but we've learned since then. No one is judging your decision, but to defend it today, with all of the research available sounds more like guilt than freethinking.

 

[Davka]

The issue really comes down to child psychology:

1) Do kids really understand why they're being hit?

Mine did.

2) Does assaulting your kid actually deter them from other behaviour that you deem to be wrong?

I wouldn't know, since I never "assaulted" my kids. I do know that they learned from spankings, as well as from other forms of discipline.

3) Do you realize that there is a discrepancy between what your kid knows is wrong, and what you feel is wrong?

Of course there is! It is a part of every parent's job to teach your children what the socially accepted definitions of "right" and "wrong" are. This question is absurd.

4) If there is a discrepancy, do you realize that the situation doesn't need punishing, it needs explaining?

Of course! That's why we never "punished" our kids. We explained why what they were doing was wrong, and that it would result in a spanking if they did it again. Then, if they did it again, we calmly reminded them of the rules, smacked them three times across the buttocks with a wooden spoon, gave them a big hug, and sat down to explain and discuss the situation.

5) Do you realize if you're hitting a kid any they don't understand why, you may actually be traumatizing them?

Yes. "Hitting" (or even spanking) kids with no warning and no explanation is abuse.

6) Are there better, more effective ways of dealing with behavioral issues?

It depends entirely on the child. Our oldest would defy me to my face, right after being told not to do something. The only thing that worked was consistently refusing to let her move the line even one inch, with the understanding that crossing the line would result in a spanking. As an adult, she has not only acknowledged the necessity for that spanking ultimatum, she has actually thanked me for refusing to let her get away with murder.

Our middle child, otoh, would burst into tears if you looked at her sideways. Different kids, different parenting.

If we had been wealthier, we might have been able to afford to build a soundproof "time out" room or something of the sort. But let's not pretend that our first-world luxury options are available to all, or that our first-world luxury solutions are appropriate in all situations.

 

[Davka]

Fail.

Try again.

How about you stop your tirade and respond to my actual post.

Tirade? Not even close. I was responding to your decision to utilize unnecessarily inflammatory language.

If any of you wish an honest discussion, please stop with the veiled attacks, straw men, and question-begging.

 

[prideandfall]

Don't put words in my mouth. It's not only insulting, it's a violation of the TOU.

ha!

Are you saying that nobody should ever use any physical contact whatsoever with another human being? You're telling me that we all must maintain physical distance from one-another at all times, and that all physical contact is abuse, right?

for someone who was just crying about having words put in their mouth, you wasted no time at all immediately misrepresenting what i said in the most ridiculous and facetious way possible.
you also completely dodged the question being asked and replied with a non sequitur - you're really failing to live up to your supposed desire for reasoned discussion on this subject.
sure, i'll totally cop to using emotional language, because i feel very passionate about this subject, but at least i'm not blatantly lying about the comments that i'm responding to or dodging questions.

now as for what you said, credo already tried this pathetic attempt at a straw man and i'll give you the same answer i gave them:
there is a multitude of physical contact that happens between people that wouldn't be classified as assault if you did it to an adult - all of which is completely fine to do to a child.

Unless you are willing to drop the deliberately insulting, inflamed rhetoric, we're done here. I don't bother debating closed-minded demagogues.

your uppity moral outrage at the fact that i use passionate language in the face of your refusal to even engage on the subject without resorting to straw men tactics or blind mischaracterization is truly staggering.

 

[Davka]

Nice try, but your inability to discuss nuance and shades of grey is keeping you from exercising logic.

There is a reason that our languages contain words such as "poke," "pat," "slap," "prod," "spank," "punch," "beat," and so on. Snow is not rain. Sex is not rape. Spanking is not beating. Discipline is not punishment. Masturbation is not adultery.

The "all spanking is abuse" crowd is no different from any extremist fundamentalist crowd. Jeebus says that the "sin" of masturbation is no different from committing genocide, and the consequences for both are the same. This sort of irrational refusal to acknowledge nuance makes rational discussion impossible.

Definition of assult from dictionary.com:

- a physical attack

"poke," "pat," "slap," "prod," "spank," "punch," "beat," are all physical attacks at varying degrees of intensity. Just because you're not seriously injuring your kid, doesn't make it not assault.

Bullshit. You are painting yourself into a corner with your refusal to stop pretending everything is black-and-white. Your argument forces you to claim that when a friend pokes you, or pats you on the back, that is a physical assault. You have abandoned all reason.

 

[Frikki]

So Davka.

Is it ok to "spank" a developmentally disabled adult that is in your care?

 

[Davka]

So Davka.

Is it ok to "spank" a developmentally disabled adult that is in your care?

Is it OK to engage in sexual intercourse with a developmentally disabled adult that is in your care?

And what does this question have to do with the ethical consideration of rape versus consensual sex?

The fact that none of the anti-spanking advocates appear capable of making their point without resorting to innumerable logical fallacies and strained metaphors is quite telling.

 

[Frikki]

So Davka.

Is it ok to "spank" a developmentally disabled adult that is in your care?

Is it OK to engage in sexual intercourse with a developmentally disabled adult that is in your care?

And what does this question have to do with the ethical consideration of rape versus consensual sex?

The fact that none of the anti-spanking advocates appear capable of making their point without resorting to innumerable logical fallacies and strained metaphors is quite telling.

The fact that the pro child hitting advocates appear un-capable of answering questions is quite telling.