Why do people believe in hell?

[abaddon]

No. And that's the problem I see in Christianity's paternalism - making morality into a matter of pleasing an authority figure.

Im trying to answer the OP's questions:

Why do people believe this irrational belief? - I always respond to a question like this with looking for the irrational impulses that are hidden under the theist's rationalizations.

What's the appeal? - Again, irrational impulses layered over with "reasoning" like how, allegedly, it'd be an unjust universe without hell in it.

"Oops, I did a bad thing but otherwise am inherently good" is my own view about unfortunate decisions in life (if that's what "sin" is... which I'm not sure it is).

 

[DBT]

Ah, yes, but we have an example of someone who 'studied hell for his master's thesis' and concluded that hell is 'not permanent for humans.'

No, we have the equivalent of a benevolent Sunday school teacher telling us he really, really hopes something awful is not actually the case.

Yes, someone who made a study of hell. My point being the absurdiy of the whole thing.

 

[Learner]

I'll just say briefly (going to work). Let us say then, differences of conceptual viewpoints of hell. You say a thief will be judged with the same punishment as Hitler or Satan. I disagree.

I don't say anything. I merely point to what the verses say. It's up to you to show where the distinction is made within the source material. It has nothing to do with me.

I thought you did say that some verses suggest this, and some say that.

There are verses that suggest that, then there are verses that explicitly state eternal torment.

If it has nothing to do with you (no viewpoint it seems), then you don't really have any context I can discuss with. Just like hearing someone narrating a story in an audio-book.

 

[DBT]

I thought you did say that some verses suggest this, and some say that.

There are verses that suggest that, then there are verses that explicitly state eternal torment.

If it has nothing to do with you (no viewpoint it seems), then you don't really have any context I can discuss with. Just like hearing someone narrating a story in an audio-book.

I meant that what the verses say has nothing to do with me. I point to them and say, look at what this verse says.

So I ask you, what do you think they say?

 

[ruby sparks]

Yes, someone who made a study of hell. My point being the absurdiy of the whole thing.

If you think that’s bad, I have also been reading about a branch of radical theology that’s popular in certain remote monasteries in parts of Southwest Bulgaria. The scholars there have come to the conclusion, after decades of, er, study, that none of the writers of the bible really believed in god, that it’s all just allegory. It’s quite a bombshell and is making big waves in southwestern Bulgaria theology circles, apparently.

 

[Learner]

Believing in hell doesn't feel good as you think, if those close to us don't believe in it.

I feel for you. I wish I could help. The only advice I can offer is to suggest that you try your best to catch yourself on and <edited>.

I don't want to getting into any twit for twat but I'll take note of your advice. Much obliged.

 

[Learner]

Have you looked into this? (post #96) Please at least read all through "jewish not greek"


https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...elieve-in-hell&p=754669&viewfull=1#post754669


Also here is a guest preacher that studied hell for his master's thesis and concluded that it isn't eternal for humans: (note I am with a very conservative church which is even against the ordination of women)
https://www.play.bible/watch/master-q-rjznuzh8g

Eternal hell is the traditional church view but then some Christians have tried looking into it - like Edward Fudge who was asked to research it for a year.

Cheers for the links. Sounds interesting. First time hearing of Edward Fudge.

 

[Learner]

People believe in hell because it feels good to think they are going to heaven. Without the duality heaven has no meaning.

Believing in hell doesn't feel good as you think, if those close to us don't believe in it.

Really? Because i recall enjoying being on the inside of an 'in' joke, as it were. Humans have always enjoyed being on the right side, especially if it's the obviously superior side.

They must have forgotten about their non-believing loved ones, at least for that moment when they "enjoyed the thought of being on the right side".

Of course, back then everyone around me was Christain, they weren't the right KIND of Christain, and weren't going to the rightest of Heavens, but they still got a consolation Heaven.
What actually made me feel bad was not that, but the entire concept of Hell. Eternal torture for finite crime being called 'justice,' that had to be a test.

It is scary...had the same thought. We often hear expressions, even from non-believers wishing for hell to exist, at least for those evil people, when a loved one is bruttally murdered. They'd see that as fitting justice, understandable with the trauma.

 

[excreationist]

For everyone that thinks that the Bible clearly says hell lasts forever, I suggest you look into these things:


https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/


I think there are about 80 related verses, but the previous link only looks at some of the main ones....


Then there's this: (I think it also looks at both sides of the issue)
https://www.koorong.com/product/the...rd-edition-edward-william-fudge_9781608999309


That is from a Christian book store - note it has three 5 star reviews including people who originally believed in eternal hell....

 

[ruby sparks]

“It concludes that hell is a place of total annihilation, everlasting destruction, although the destructive process encompasses conscious torment of whatever sort, intensity, and duration God might require in each individual case.”

Fudge by name, fudge by nature.

Anyhows, it all makes you just wish human dads could be as loving as god, doesn’t it?

 

[excreationist]

ruby sparks:

If you wanted to understand its conclusion you should read some of the 420 pages... or at least read through https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

 

[DBT]

For everyone that thinks that the Bible clearly says hell lasts forever, I suggest you look into these things:


https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/


I think there are about 80 related verses, but the previous link only looks at some of the main ones....


Then there's this: (I think it also looks at both sides of the issue)
https://www.koorong.com/product/the...rd-edition-edward-william-fudge_9781608999309


That is from a Christian book store - note it has three 5 star reviews including people who originally believed in eternal hell....

OT theology, Judaism, is not really compatible with Christian theology regardless of the efforts to make it so.

 

[Learner]

That's strange. Jesus himself quotes from the OT, and the NT centre's around Jesus and his teachings + quotes. Some judaic teachings (Pharisees & co.) are not compitable with the Prophets of the OT.

 

[Learner]

Cheers excreationist, going to go through your links now and learn something.

 

[steve_bank]

Hell has to be as 9ntimidating and fear inspiring as p[ossible.

It would not have much value if the biblee said you spend eternity some place but it isn't too bad. It can get warm but there is no air conditioning.

 

[ruby sparks]

ruby sparks:

If you wanted to understand its conclusion you should read some of the 420 pages... or at least read through https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

Very interesting. Shows just what can be concocted by only taking into account certain bits of the texts and ignoring others. A highly unusual theological technique, to be sure, but convincing and effective nonetheless.

 

[DBT]

That's strange. Jesus himself quotes from the OT, and the NT centre's around Jesus and his teachings + quotes. Some judaic teachings (Pharisees & co.) are not compitable with the Prophets of the OT.

Jesus quotes nothing because he wrote nothing. Anonymous Christian writers have Jesus quoting the OT and referring to the prophets.

Two different things.

It was the writers of the gospel who tried to weave Jesus into the narrative, but this was rejected by orthodox Judaism.

 

[excreationist]

ruby sparks:

If you wanted to understand its conclusion you should read some of the 420 pages... or at least read through https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

Very interesting. Shows just what can be concocted by only taking into account certain bits of the texts and ignoring others. A highly unusual theological technique, to be sure, but convincing and effective nonetheless.

Note that there are three reviews which are from Christians who have actually read the book and they all give 5 star reviews - some of them even originally believed in eternal hell... so you're assuming you're more knowledgeable about the book than they are?

 

[DBT]

There are contradictions. There are verses that clearly describe hell as eternal punishment, while others suggest annihilation or separation from God, hence confusion that has endured for two thousand years. Many or even most early Christians believed in eternal torment. Gnostics relegated the god of the bible to the status of 'evil demiurge.'

 

[excreationist]

There are contradictions. There are verses that clearly describe hell as eternal punishment, while others suggest annihilation or separation from God, hence confusion that has endured for two thousand years. Many or even most early Christians believed in eternal torment. Gnostics relegated the god of the bible to the status of 'evil demiurge.'

I think Fudge's book looks into arguments for eternal hell as well and isn't completely dogmatic about his conclusion.
For a free resource see:

https://www.jewishnotgreek.com/

The adjectives "many" and "few" in Luke 12 could not be used if eternal conscious torment were what He was teaching here. He would have used "heavier" and "lighter" if the duration of conscience sufferings were eternal. So according to Yeshua's (Jesus") own words, some will have "many stripes" (Hitler types) and some will have "few stripes" (only God knows).

....

Again, it is eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. (Matthew 25:46) Death is the punishment; and it lasts forever. That is why it is called eternal punishment. It is a punishment with everlasting effects. Remember, Jesus Himself tells us that the fire was never made for humans, it was "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Humans, however, will be destroyed there-cremated according to Isaiah 66:24.

....

But what is the meaning of the word "destroy"? Perhaps it means eternal torment? You certainly have to import an alien meaning to the definition of the word "destroy" (Gk: apollumi) if it means eternal torture. It is never directly translated this way in any New Testament writings. Never.

.....

"it would seem strange...if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed...it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."

......

But what about the word "forever"; doesn't the text say torment will go on forever? No. Read it very carefully. It clearly says "the smoke" will rise forever. Smoke rising forever is much different than torment going on forever.



​

Note this is a very small excerpt on that website, and that site is a very small version of that 420 page book.

If you are truly open-minded you should read that website rather than assuming that the traditional view of the church is correct. At the most there are 1 or 2 passages that seem to suggest eternal torment but when you look into it deeply they can seem to be resolved. Also that website has a different author to the book and the website is trying to prove "conditional immortality".

edit: I see you were open to there being some verses that are against the idea of eternal hell.