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Non-religious, spiritual experience

rousseau

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Stealing an excellent post from abaddon here, emphasis mine:

Original Post

Richard Carrier said:
The most fantastic experience I had was like that times ten. It happened at sea, well past midnight on the flight deck of a cutter, in international waters two hundred miles from the nearest land. I had not slept for over 36 hours, thanks to a common misfortune of overlapping duty schedules and emergency rescue operations. For hours we had been practicing helicopter landing and refuelling drills and at long last the chopper was away and everything was calm. The ship was rocking slowly in a gentle, dark sea, and I was alone beneath the starriest of skies that most people have never seen. I fell so deeply into the clear, total immersion in the real that I left my body and my soul expanded to the size of the universe, so that I could at one thought perceive, almost 'feel', everything that existed in perfect and total clarity. It was like undergoing a Vulcan Mind Meld with God. Naturally, words cannot do justice to something like this. It cannot really be described, only experienced, or hinted at. What did I see? A beautiful, vast, harmonious and wonderful universe all at peace with the Tao. There was plenty of life scattered like tiny seeds everywhere, but no supernatural beings, no gods or demons or souls floating about, no heaven or hell. Just a perfect, complete universe, with no need for anything more. The experience was absolutely real to me. There was nothing about it that would suggest it was a dream or a mere flight of imagination. And it was magnificent.
However, he continued reading and studying, and he decided that these experiences were all in his head, and he moved away from Taoism to a more typical metaphysical naturalism and secular humanism. This included reading the Bible again, and he found the Old Testament disgusting and the New Testament disappointing, and the whole Bible full of gross immorality. So that was out.

Some folk are so totally sold on abstract "isms" that they'll throw direct experience out the door in favor of ideological tenets. But there are few things more "all in my head" than whatever stupid "ism" that anybody comes to believe in.

He got past the analytic bit of the brain that wants its conceptual "pegs" to fit its conceptual "holes" and so was more nakedly open to experience.

Some of the description of his experience sounds religious, but is it really? "I left my body"... "my soul expanded" ... "It was like undergoing a Vulcan Mind Meld with God". But...
1) he immediately qualified such phrasing with "Naturally, words cannot do justice to something like this. It cannot really be described, only experienced, or hinted at."
2) he has a christocentric way of describing his relation to Taoism too, which supports that his Christian background likely infects his description of a lot of things (I see it in secular humanists all the time). So his skewed choice of phrasing doesn't mean the experience itself was inherently religious.

I think secularist/scientistic ideologues imagine the alternative (to being stuck inside a highly reductive and cartesian viewpoint) is to get religious about things... to indulge in "woo". No, it doesn't go straight from the reductionism direct into religiosity. Religion laid claim to these "oneness" experiences ages ago and slathered a lot of metaphysical, hyperbolic language all over them. But that's not a good reason to (anti-empirically) reject such experiences -- just because religious persons obscured them with the language of "woo".

IMV, Carrier found the baby in religion's bathwater and, for ideology's sake, threw it out. What a tragic thing to squash wonder with dogma. I make a point of this because I think it's a huge mistake to concede valuable experiences that are ubiquitous to all humanity to religion simply because they're traditionally associated with religion and, so, tend to be described in the language of religion.

The question is - when we strip away the 'metaphysical, hyperbolic language' that religion slathered over top of spiritual experience, what are we left with? And what have you, or people you have known personally, experienced in this context?
 
It is all in the brain if you reject supernatural.

Chemical states, endorphins and serotonin. From Tibetan translations I read in the 70s they learn to enter the dream state at will and control the dream.

IMO it is all imagination. I believe a Buddhist might say it is all self created and all thought forms which are illusory. Thoughts are linked to brain chemistry and brain chemistry affects thoughts and feelings.

A movie back in the 90s based on the true story of a gymnast who had a near crippling experience. He connects with a nysterius man working in a garage who becomes a mentor or guide of sorts.

One day he says come with me to the kid I have something special to show you. They walk for an hoe and end up on a hill. The man says here it is. The kid says where. The man looks around and picks up a rock at random and says this is it.

The gist of it was the kid was filled with positive anticipation and lost it. The man simply says, what changed?
 
It is all in the brain if you reject supernatural.

Of course everything we experience is in the brain.

Do you think there is room for a class of experience beyond 'doing what I can to survive and reproduce'. A transcendent experience?

Does the physical nature of these experiences mean that they can't be put in a unique category?
 
It is all in the brain if you reject supernatural.

Of course everything we experience is in the brain.

Do you think there is room for a class of experience beyond 'doing what I can to survive and reproduce'. A transcendent experience?

Does the physical nature of these experiences mean that they can't be put in a unique category?

You tell me, I am all ears. What is 'spiritual experience'?
 
You tell me, I am all ears. What is 'spiritual experience'?
An experience that stands out from the mundane.

The experience is "secular" experience if it does not stand out from the mundane.

It's "spiritual" if the person using the word means "not typical of everyday life" and "informs my life with meaning". Keep in mind that this epithet requires an evaluation that's external to the experience itself. So the rock on the hill in your parable is spiritual or not depending on how the person values it.

It's "religious" if it 1) has religious content (e.g. maybe a vision of mythic beings) and/or 2) has a religious context (e.g. results from praying in a church).
 
You tell me, I am all ears. What is 'spiritual experience'?
An experience that stands out from the mundane.

The experience is "secular" experience if it does not stand out from the mundane.

It's "spiritual" if the person using the word means "not typical of everyday life" and "informs my life with meaning". Keep in mind that this epithet requires an evaluation that's external to the experience itself. So the rock on the hill in your parable is spiritual or not depending on how the person values it.

It's "religious" if it 1) has religious content (e.g. maybe a vision of mythic beings) and/or 2) has a religious context (e.g. results from praying in a church).

Can sex be a spiritual and enlightening experience?

Gourmet foods?

Ice cream?

I think secular and religious spiritual experience ends up being the same. You think something is unique not knowing it may be mundane for others.

People believed there is/was something mysterious and mystical to the East. The Mysterious East. The book Lost Horizons by Summerset Mall. India was a land of mysteries. It IMO is all subjective conditioning. For me the only dichotomy is healthy and unhealthy. If you are an alchoholic and get sober it is a spiritual experience and awakening just to be normal.

Way back I was in the hospital with a life threatening foot infection. When I got out for a while birds sounded like symphonies and colors were more vivid. Eventually that peak experience faded.

It id all relative.
 
You tell me, I am all ears. What is 'spiritual experience'?
An experience that stands out from the mundane.

The experience is "secular" experience if it does not stand out from the mundane.

It's "spiritual" if the person using the word means "not typical of everyday life" and "informs my life with meaning". Keep in mind that this epithet requires an evaluation that's external to the experience itself. So the rock on the hill in your parable is spiritual or not depending on how the person values it.

It's "religious" if it 1) has religious content (e.g. maybe a vision of mythic beings) and/or 2) has a religious context (e.g. results from praying in a church).

It dawns on me now that religion would actually be the cultural embodiment of our spiritual experiences. The raw material, so to speak, is that which we experience outside of the mundane, religion being the outcome, not the cause of that. But once religions are institutionalized they begin colouring further spiritual experiences in their light.

So I believe if you were to want to understand this class of experience - pure spirituality - religions would offer a clouded reflection. They point to the experience, but are shrouded in the hyperbolic language you mention.
 
Wiilliam James The Varieties Of Religious Experience. See the thread on general religion.
 
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