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Best evidence for a historical Joshua ben Joseph

It may have been Robert Price who thought that JtB was included in the gospels in order to persuade his followers that they should be Xtians.

That's a reasonable theory. There may be a fictional element to the JtB role in the gospels, as something included to win over some of the JtB disciples.

But that's no evidence against a factual historical Jesus person. It only means that the Jesus disciples were over-enthusiastic to win converts. It means that the Gospels do contain some fiction element along with the factual part. It would be amazing if these accounts did not contain some fiction, even if all their beliefs about Jesus are correct. It was normal for ALL the ancient writers to include some fiction elements. Even the most reliable historians we use for our facts included some fiction elements in their accounts.

So the JtB part in the Gospels may contain some fiction, while the overall presentation of Jesus the miracle-worker who resurrected is factually true.
 
For years now I've maintained that we can be certain that the Jesus who walked on water, fed thousands with mere morsels, healed blindness, paralysis, even death and levitated off into the sky never to be seen again did not exist. Such a person would have left a much more indelible mark in the historical record than any Caesar, . . .

No, Caesar had vast power over millions of subjects. Having both military and political power made someone widely famous and celebrated in his time and a subject for the mainline historians.

. . . more indelible mark in the historical record than any Caesar, certainly more than Pilate or . . .

Jesus did leave a "much more indelible mark in the historical record" than Pilate. There's hardly any reference to Pilate outside brief mention in Philo and Josephus. Nothing in the Roman Latin historians other than the one in Tacitus. We have much more in the written record about Jesus than we have about Pilate, even though Pilate did exercise political power.

. . . or JtB.

We have much more in the written record about Jesus than about JtB, who is mentioned only in the NT and once in Josephus.


The fact that not one single morsel of evidence of all these incredible goings-on are preserved in historical records from the time in question speaks volumes. These things simply did not happen.

But it all happened in the small space of only 1-3 years. Probably even less than one year, according to Albert Schweitzer, who is a credible scholar. So in such a short time space it's easily explained how he was ignored by the mainline historians who were far distant from these events, and also who concentrated on reporting only the deeds of the rich and powerful.


Philo of Alexandria was a Jewish philosopher who wrote a great deal about things going on in and around Jerusalem right in the wheelhouse of the time Jesus would have been doing his thing.

No, Philo mostly ignores the events in Jerusalem. And he reports very little of the contemporary events. His writings are 90% about ancient events, centuries earlier.

The only contemporary events he reports are those involving himself personally, mainly in Alexandria. He says a tiny bit about Pilate and Herod Agrippa (only because of events directly involving himself), and nothing about Herod Antipas or other personalities in Judea-Galilee.


He wrote about the Essenes and other Jewish sects that . . .

No, only about the Essenes. Nothing about the Pharisees and Sadducees and Zealots. You're confusing Philo with Josephus. Philo shows little knowledge of the Jewish sects. And no knowledge of the Sanhedrin, no knowledge of the popular rabbis Hillel and Shammai. This illustrates a lack of knowledge of the events of Jerusalem during this time.

But also, Philo (20 BC - 50 AD) mentions no contemporary figures other than high-profile political figures he was directly involved with. Otherwise no famous contemporary persons. His focus is on the famous past Jewish heroes, especially Moses.


. . . and other Jewish sects that had somewhat similar beliefs as what would eventually become Christianity.

No, he says nothing of anything similar to Christian beliefs other than the gnostic ideas, such as in Alexandria. His mention of the Essenes is probably not related to the Qumran community and Dead Sea Scrolls, which he shows no familiarity with. He's unaware of the zealots and militancy of the Qumran sect. He knows only of the pacifism and mysticism and isolationism of the Essenes, not of the anti-Roman sentiment and conflict with the mainline Jewish establishment in Jerusalem. No sign of his being in that area or any involvement in those affairs.


It is very possible that he lived in Jerusalem at the time Jesus was allegedly performing all these miracles.

No, he lived in Alexandria. He visited the temple in Jerusalem only once in his life, which was an unusual experience for him.


The fact that none of his writings ever mention Jesus, any of the miracles, the dead people who came back to life when Jesus was crucified, etc., strains credulity far past the breaking point.

He never mentions John the Baptist and many others. And the odd story in Matthew 27:51-53 of the rising bodies at the crucifixion is not to be taken seriously. Obviously Philo never read Matthew, which was written 30 years after he died.


None of these things happened.

You're right that the opening of the graves and zombie invasion of Jerusalem did not happen. Reported only in Matthew. But the miracle acts of Jesus probably did happen, for which we have 4 sources (5 for the Resurrection).


Having said that we're left with a possible historical nugget, a street preacher who possibly pissed off the wrong people and got himself Jimmy Hoffa'd. A guy who will never be able to speak for himself because the only thing we have is what people claim he said.

Your "nugget" has to contain an explanation why we have these 4 accounts of him, describing his miracle acts and Resurrection, and yet we have no similar accounts of anyone else doing such things.


And none of those people are people who actually met him (none of the books of the NT were written by anyone who actually knew Jesus).

Like MOST of our sources for ancient historical persons were written by authors who didn't actually know those persons they wrote about. That doesn't undermine the credibility of the accounts. The accounts tell us accurately about those persons, generally, and of course contain dubious elements too, so we don't have totally accurate accounts about ANY ancient historical characters. So yes, Jesus is the same as other historical figures, for whom we have some information, but no infallible perfect written biographical account. But those historical figures did exist and were like what the accounts describe, generally.


Add to that decades of legendary development before the first of the 4 gospels appears . . .

A shorter time gap than for most accounts we have of ancient historical figures. Usually the period of "legendary development" is more like 50-100 years and longer.

But the Paul epistles, reporting the death and resurrection, are separated by only 20-25 years from the events.

. . . the first of the 4 gospels appears (written by people in Rome, by the way, 1500 miles away and no less than 40 years removed from the events in question).

Even if the final version was written in Rome, parts of it are taken from sources closer. And the other Gospels were closer, and Paul was closer and a contemporary of the events.

That the story traveled that far so soon indicates the importance of it, especially among some educated persons who could read and write, and who traveled.


The story of Jesus the Magic Jew was certainly a popular one. But popular doesn't have anything to do with true.

Attested to in extra sources has much to do with true. Also sources near to the time, as these sources are closer than average to the time of the reported events. And if "popular" means widely believed, this is one indicator that the story was true, because most stories of "Magic" this or that were dismissed as fiction and did not become popular, other than a few ancient legends from centuries earlier. So that this one became popular so soon, unlike any other "Magic" stories, is further indication that it was taken more seriously because of extra evidence, extra witnesses, extra reports, unlike miracle stories generally which are dismissed for lack of serious evidence.


Never has, never will.

You missed your calling: all you need is a banjo and you could have been a song-writer. Or a poet.


Ask Paul Bunyan.

To make a serious point, you have to give the source for this legend, like we have 4 (5) sources for the Jesus miracle acts. If there are multiple sources for it, near the time he lived, then maybe there's some truth to it.
 
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Your "nugget" has to contain an explanation why we have these 4 accounts of him, describing his miracle acts and Resurrection, and yet we have no similar accounts of anyone else doing such things.
A story depends on one who writes it. Jesus had good story writers. Paul, for example.
In India, Vishnu had better story writers than Shiva, that is why the popularity of Bhagawat Purana.
Kings in India respected Charans and Bhats (castes which recited the the stories in villages) and paid them handsomely, because they could make or mar a story for all history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charan, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhat.
 
It means that the Gospels do contain some fiction element along with the factual part.

Great! Tell us exactly which parts are fictional and how you know this in precise detail.

Oh, just kidding, Lump. We all know you never can nor will. You'll just keep posting walls of text or other diversionary tactics and make ridiculous claims that don't actually provide any details or show exactly which parts are fictional thinking, I guess, that we won't notice.
 
It means that the Gospels do contain some fiction element along with the factual part.

Great! Tell us exactly which parts are fictional and how you know this in precise detail.

Oh, just kidding, Lump. We all know you never can nor will. You'll just keep posting walls of text or other diversionary tactics and make ridiculous claims that don't actually provide any details or show exactly which parts are fictional thinking, I guess, that we won't notice.

Well, he has suggested all the parts that direct Xians to lead better lives are later interpolations. And the silly miracles, just fluff added to bump His rep. Lumpy only needs a few things to be true. Healing miracles, to include resurrection, showing Jesus had access to divine power, and Jesus promising Eternal Life. If he's divine, or a friend to divine, then the least effort Lumpy has to do for Paradise is believe in some miracles.
You can disprove the zombies, the meek heritance, the moneylenders, and getting the whore off with a warning, all that can be falsified, his faith is untouched.
 
Lumpy only needs a few things to be true.

Oh, I'm well aware. What he can't ever--won't ever--do, of course, is show any of us HOW he knows what parts are fictional and what parts are not. And, of course, he'll completely sidestep (usually with walls of text to try to desperately hide the fact that he's sidestepping) the fact that if he conceded ANYTHING is fictional, then it throws into question the entirety of it and necessarily means that no one can extract fact from fiction.

It's almost fun if it weren't the standard apologetic deluge of bullshit, fallacies and shameless, nonsensical torturing of logic.
 
No, there are no others who performed "magic tricks" like those of Jesus in the Gospel accounts.

Regarding magic tricks, here is a pic of Sai Baba of Shirdi, India (1834-1918). Magic tricks, healings, . . .

There are no serious accounts of any healings by Sai Baba of Shirdi.

It is popular to make such claims, as comparison arguments to debunk the Jesus miracles. But there is no written record from the time of this guru, from anyone claiming miracle healings, other than the normal praying claims of all religious people, who pray for healing and other favors, and when something good happens they say it was an answer to their prayers.

Not only are all the claims from devotees only, who had been under the influence of the guru's charisma for many years, but these are the only ones ever healed, who already believed in their guru and prayed constantly to him, and when they sometimes got a favorable result, they then attributed it to their guru as a miracle answer to their prayer.

Likewise all the ones healed at the Asclepius temples were disciples who had worshiped this ancient healing god all their lives and prayed to him constantly and performed his prescribed rituals or had them performed on them by the local Asclepius priests.

But by contrast, most/all those reportedly healed by Jesus were non-disciples seeing him for the first time, not disciples who already worshiped him regularly.

And, no claims of healing miracles are legitimate if you cannot present the published account of them, where the events are described, by the earliest known sources for the claims. We do not have written accounts of miracles by these various gurus, such as we have written accounts of the Jesus miracles. If no one ever quotes from the original sources for these miracle claims, then it's not credible. It's easy to just repeat Jesus-debunkers making these claims without the original sources for them. The sources have to be something other than just another Jesus-debunker crusader throwing out names of alleged miracle-workers they claim did the same thing Jesus did, without any original source for the claimed event.

So to give a serious argument, present your Sai Baba Shirdi miracle example from some source other than a contemporary Jesus-debunker whose only source for it is his insistence that there have to be other miracle-workers than Jesus who also did the same thing because it's just not fair that only Jesus could have done such things. Because this kind of crybaby argument is all we ever get as examples of Jesus parallel miracle-workers.

. . . preaching, small band of followers (to whom he appeared after his death) etc etc.

Of course among the millions of devotees having gathered around him over his long career and expecting him to re-appear we can expect some to claim having visions of him, over many years, so they can equate him to Jesus, after whom his resurrection is modeled. But there are no accounts of Sai Baba Shirdi and others appearing physically to a group of witnesses together, or of his dead body returning to life. People individually have visions of earlier hero figures, as mystical experiences or spiritual encounters, in one believer's dream or trance or altered state. That's not what we see in the Gospel accounts, or in Paul's description of witnesses seeing him alive, even a group of 500 witnesses who saw him together.

Again, we need the original quoted source saying it happened, not just a claim that there are such miracles reported somewhere which are the same as in the Gospel accounts. Why can't the original source for it be presented, so we can read the account of what happened or what was seen? Why do we never get the reported event from the time? Why is it we always have only today's Jesus-debunker crusader assuring us that the other miracle claims exist? Why do they never quote from the original source for it?


Again, only an illustration of plausibility.

There's nothing plausible about it if we can't have quotes from the original source reporting it. A tirade from a 21st-century Jesus-debunker crusader is not a sufficient source for a Jesus-parallel miracle-worker claim. We need the written account about it, like we have reports of the Jesus miracle acts in written accounts from the time.


There were, apparently (according to Josephus) a number of 'messianic claimants' going about Judea around the supposed time of (or before and after) Jesus, some of them with much larger numbers of followers than Jesus was said to have had (thirty thousand men in the case of the unnamed Egyptian Prophet, 52 CE).

These were anti-Roman political dissidents fomenting a revolution to seize power. Of course this anti-Roman militancy was widespread throughout Judea-Galilee-Samaria and nearby areas, and it drew large numbers in some cases. But it was about a war against the Romans, not about someone performing miracle acts.


I believe one of them (Theudas) tried to part the waters of the river Jordan in 45 CE and persuaded 'a great many people' to attend the event.

No miracle acts are reported in any source. There were probably many charlatans making promises to do miracles, but no reports of any miracles having happened, such as are reported in the Gospel accounts. The mere promise to perform a miracle act is not what drew any large crowd. It was the call to arms to fight against the Romans, from a charismatic demagogue, which drew the crowds.


The Romans sent armed horsemen who killed many of the people there, took Theudas alive, and then executed him, according to Josephus. Then there was Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE), Simon of Peraea (also 4 BCE), Athronges the shepherd (also 4 BCE), and The Samaritan Prophet (36 CE). And others in Judea during the later years of the 1st Century CE.

If Jesus did exist, it's possible he was not even as well-known as any of these, either to Josephus or the Romans.

Because he was not a political dissident insurrectionist militant leading an armed rebellion to overthrow the established government.


The Romans apparently executed a large number of mostly unnamed Jews in those times, but that he was said to have been crucified suggests that if he existed he would have been a bit more of a naughty boy, from the Roman pov, than he is portrayed in the Christian texts.

As for Philo, I am not an expert on his writings, but I understood it that he did not mention any of these sorts of people, so I don't tend to see the omission of one of them as telling us much, other than that perhaps none of them, or their exploits, were actually famous (or relevant) enough for him to mention. But then I am not even sure how many if any religious figures he mentions at all (he wasn't, as I understand it, writing history, and was more into ideas and philosophy).

He wrote mainly of the ancient events and ideas and philosophy, i.e., Moses, Torah, the Patriarchs, the Flood, Creation, etc. A few pages of controversy with the recent emperors Tiberius and Caligula. Nothing about contemporary philosophers or revolutionaries or rabbis or prophets or "messiahs" etc. If he heard anything of Jesus and his miracles, he would have dismissed it as fiction, as all such claims were dismissed, by him and others who were educated, who never took such claims seriously, as 90% of even the uneducated did not.

It was a period when miracle claims were rejected by virtually everyone. There is nothing in any literature of the time showing any acceptance of miracle claims about Messiahs or other heroes here or there, including in any Greek-Roman literature.

The appearance of Paul's epistles and then the Gospel accounts is a sudden disruption of the pattern of the 1st century and earlier, where reported miracles by resurrected messiahs and saviors etc. are totally absent from any literature. It would be astonishing if we saw anything of this nature in the writings of Philo or any earlier writer, later than the book of II Kings (600-500 BC) where there is a slight hint of such things, and yet even this was about ANCIENT miracle-worker legends from centuries earlier (Elijah and Elisha).

I.e., all the interest in any "miracles" was only about ANCIENT prophets or heroes or gods, never about a recent "messiah" showing up, like Jesus shows up suddenly around 30 AD unlike anything similar to be found in that culture. Then, after 100 AD, we see some Jesus copycat stories popping up here and there, and new miracle legends and revival of some pagan miracle cults experiencing new life.
 
For Ruby Sparks

Here’s a book you may be interested in, Ruby, Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton Mack (1995). I am re-reading it after about 10-15 years, and I’m still finding it fresh and relevant.

Mack is a biblical scholar and Professor emeritus in early Christianity at the Claremont School of Theology. From  Burton_L._Mack: ”He is a noted scholar of the hypothetical Q Document, and is confident that it can be sifted into three layers: one containing primarily wisdom sayings, another giving details on how the community ought to behave, and another containing apocalyptic pronouncements.”

Mack’s thesis is that early communities of Christians collected orally transmitted stories and sayings and that these collections grew over time in response to outward social conditions, political and otherwise. As noted above, he analyzes the Q Document as well as the Gospels, including Thomas, and the Epistles. His conclusion is that the historical Jesus is the source of the earliest layers of wisdom sayings, and that much of the other characterizations of him in the Gospels and Epistles are later additions in response to outside events as well as other groups of early Christians.

In addition, by analyzing the layers you can see the early communities splitting and heading off in different directions, the Thomas community for example heading in a Gnostic direction.

I find it a fascinating study of the growth of myth through time.
 
Back when I wanted to be a Christian (circa 1972), I'd read the NT and mentally mark those passages where Jesus' speech was quirky and sharp-witted (i.e., he'll cut off his challengers and say, "That is what you say.") I was convinced I was reading an actual quotation from a First Century encounter; that no myth-maker would have created such a piquant speech style for an invented hero. The parables sent the same message; they derived from a common source, an individual who could construct dramatic, blocked-out metaphors to make a point. I still feel that way -- that there was a Jesus, but that there is far too much jerry-built superstructure added on to make any persuasive case for the Christians' theology. Because those passages -- the brusque, muscular speech patterns, the parables -- are scattered through the Synoptic gospels. When I got to John's gospel, it all fell apart for me. Here was Poet Jesus, delivering soliloquies and defining himself with metaphoric titles, and, more crucially, omitting all teaching by parable. John's Jesus is a different fellow. I couldn't understand how the Christians I knew could read the four gospels and not see that John must be writing all that speechifying material to make Jesus say what he, John, wanted to promote. Later, more problems became clear to me: for instance, that the distance between Jews and Christians advances to anti-Jewish feeling in John; problems with the chronologies and genealogies in the NT; mind-blowing miracles that no secular accounts back up; the god of mercy who created a hell; the statements attributed to Jesus that contradict the doctrine of his divinity; the four versions of the empty tomb story that demonstrate the process of legend creation. Et alia. I have long since left off longing for a faith experience, because it seems to me that faith is a terrible way to claim knowledge. I find an unbridgeable gap between believers and me. The folklore is incredibly potent, to create new converts some twenty centuries on -- but I cannot shut off my need for clarity and empiricism.
 
Here’s a book you may be interested in, Ruby, Who Wrote the New Testament? by Burton Mack (1995). I am re-reading it after about 10-15 years, and I’m still finding it fresh and relevant.

Mack is a biblical scholar and Professor emeritus in early Christianity at the Claremont School of Theology. From  Burton_L._Mack: ”He is a noted scholar of the hypothetical Q Document, and is confident that it can be sifted into three layers: one containing primarily wisdom sayings, another giving details on how the community ought to behave, and another containing apocalyptic pronouncements.”

Mack’s thesis is that early communities of Christians collected orally transmitted stories and sayings and that these collections grew over time in response to outward social conditions, political and otherwise. As noted above, he analyzes the Q Document as well as the Gospels, including Thomas, and the Epistles. His conclusion is that the historical Jesus is the source of the earliest layers of wisdom sayings, and that much of the other characterizations of him in the Gospels and Epistles are later additions in response to outside events as well as other groups of early Christians.

In addition, by analyzing the layers you can see the early communities splitting and heading off in different directions, the Thomas community for example heading in a Gnostic direction.

I find it a fascinating study of the growth of myth through time.

Thanks Tharmas. I haven’t read that particular one. E P Sanders wrote one that I enjoyed, some years ago, though I think it has been revised since then, and the title may even have changed. It was basically, ‘Jesus, the historical figure’.

I confess I am a bit sceptical about the sort of textcavations which are involved in such things, especially when they analyse possible texts of which there is no record (and indeed the texts that do exist as the extant copies). And I think we are talking about hypothetical/perceived/extrapolated layers, not ‘actual’ layers.

As far as I am aware, textual analysis as it pertains to Jesus strays into levels of detail that are unusual by historiographical standards. There seems to be an element of fetish, and a potential risk that one is unwittingly polishing a turd.

That said, it is fascinating nonetheless. I just don’t think it produces reliable answers. Fine for exploring interesting possibilities though.

This is why I shy away from saying much more with any sort of conviction than what I have offered as my very minimal Jesus, temporarily assuming he even existed. I like, if possible, to feel I’m on at least half firm ground before I even commit to probabilities, and even then it’s speculative, and as I have said, relative (to the strength of the alternatives, as I see it).

I enjoy (and respect) Bart Ehrman quite a lot. He knows his onions, I think.

All of these guys are, I think, in the category ‘popular writers’. Someone like Politesse probably knows of other less well known and perhaps more academic scholars. Whether such people come up with any more reliable conclusions I do not know, but my guess would be that they don’t.
 
It's as if nothing has changed since those first gospels started to appear. Today's gospel writers are still using information from those earlier gospel writers, writing about their own, true, historical Jesus. Is it so very different than quests for the holy grail?
 
Thanks Tharmas. I haven’t read that particular one. E P Sanders wrote one that I enjoyed, some years ago, though I think it has been revised since then, and the title may even have changed. It was basically, ‘Jesus, the historical figure’.

I confess I am a bit sceptical about the sort of textcavations which are involved in such things, especially when they analyse possible texts of which there is no record (and indeed the texts that do exist as the extant copies). And I think we are talking about hypothetical/perceived/extrapolated layers, not ‘actual’ layers.

As far as I am aware, textual analysis as it pertains to Jesus strays into levels of detail that are unusual by historiographical standards. There seems to be an element of fetish, and a potential risk that one is unwittingly polishing a turd.

That said, it is fascinating nonetheless. I just don’t think it produces reliable answers. Fine for exploring interesting possibilities though.

This is why I shy away from saying much more with any sort of conviction than what I have offered as my very minimal Jesus, temporarily assuming he even existed. I like, if possible, to feel I’m on at least half firm ground before I even commit to probabilities, and even then it’s speculative, and as I have said, relative (to the strength of the alternatives, as I see it).

I enjoy (and respect) Bart Ehrman quite a lot. He knows his onions, I think.

All of these guys are, I think, in the category ‘popular writers’. Someone like Politesse probably knows of other less well known and perhaps more academic scholars. Whether such people come up with any more reliable conclusions I do not know, but my guess would be that they don’t.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I guess I’m a little more gullible than you, or at least more liberal in my judgements. For example I do accept the arguments for the theoretical Q document. That it should have existed makes sense, and in addition the discovery of The Gospel of Thomas proves that so-called “sayings” gospels were indeed a thing. The large percentage of sayings from Thomas that closely match sayings from Q adds further support. So that gives us a core of ur-texts that might be called an ‘actual’ layer.

Indeed, the concept of layers of text in the Gospels, including Thomas and Q, seems intuitively obvious to me, and not a gratuitous or ad hoc speculation. I note the post from ideologyhunter directly above yours (#171) describing how as a young reader he encountered different characterizations of the Jesus figure in the four canonical gospels (don’t want to put words in his mouth).

Also, I think you do a disservice to Sanders, Mack, and Ehrman by placing them in the category of merely “popular” writers. I see them more as “popularizers,” if you get my meaning. I believe they are all serious scholars in their own right, and speak with a certain authority.

As for Politesse, I’m currently reading one of the scholars he recommended – Allen Brent – although again, a popular work of his. I’ll get back to you both with my thoughts when I’m further into it.

And I agree with you, the “answers” we get aren’t necessarily all that reliable, but there is still much that can be learned. As I indicated I am mostly fascinated by the growth and development of myth through time, because it is my belief that we all rely on a weltanschauung of mythic fragments to place ourselves in history and contemporary society. And I note that one of Mack’s more recent works is The Rise and Fall of the Christian Myth, so that one’s already in my Kindle queue.
 
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I guess I’m a little more gullible than you, or at least more liberal in my judgements. For example I do accept the arguments for the theoretical Q document. That it should have existed makes sense, and in addition the discovery of The Gospel of Thomas proves that so-called “sayings” gospels were indeed a thing. The large percentage of sayings from Thomas that closely match sayings from Q adds further support. So that gives us a core of ur-texts that might be called an ‘actual’ layer.

Indeed, the concept of layers of text in the Gospels, including Thomas and Q, seems intuitively obvious to me, and not a gratuitous or ad hoc speculation. I note the post from ideologyhunter directly above yours (#171) describing how as a young reader he encountered different characterizations of the Jesus figure in the four canonical gospels (don’t want to put words in his mouth).

Also, I think you do a disservice to Sanders, Mack, and Ehrman by placing them in the category of merely “popular” writers. I see them more as “popularizers,” if you get my meaning. I believe they are all serious scholars in their own right, and speak with a certain authority.

As for Politesse, I’m currently reading one of the scholars he recommended – Allen Brent – although again, a popular work of his. I’ll get back to you both with my thoughts when I’m further into it.

And I agree with you, the “answers” we get aren’t necessarily all that reliable, but there is still much that can be learned. As I indicated I am mostly fascinated by the growth and development of myth through time, because it is my belief that we all rely on a weltanschauung of mythic fragments to place ourselves in history and contemporary society. And I note that one of Mack’s more recent works is The Rise and Fall of the Christian Myth, so that one’s already in my Kindle queue.

Hi Tharmas, it's always a pleasure to exchange with you.

I hear what you say, and it's all reasonable and what you say is plausible, imo. In fact I might even say what you have there is one of the more plausible options. Personally, I'd still stick with what I said earlier, as my own preferred approach, which is to be more reticent, or if you like, slightly less speculative about the detail. Part of my reasons may even be that I have, in years gone by, 'done my time' with this issue and have slightly lost interest for now. Well, I haven't lost interest as such, I've only lost interest in getting back into the sorts of textual analyses we are talking about here. I obviously haven't lost interest in the topic itself, or the basic question (existence or not) or I wouldn't have been posting here. :)
 
It took time -- several centuries -- for (fiction) miracle legends to evolve.

What do forum-dwellers view as the best evidence for a historical (as opposed to mythical) Jesus?

I don't see it as a binary choice. It is quite possible that there was an actual character that was a religious preacher and then all sorts of mythical stories were attached to him.

There were plenty of religious preachers, and yet none had miracle myths attached to them within only 1 or 2 generations. What is it about this one that so many different factions wanted to attach their teachings and mythical stories to him?

The best explanation, in accord with the facts, is that he actually did perform the reported miracle acts, including the Resurrection, which attracted special attention to distinguish him from all other "religious preachers" for whom we don't have similar miracle claims, or evidence in written accounts. This drew special attention to him and attracted many religionists who put their words into his mouth, along with whatever he really said. And further mythologizing could easily happen after he first became recognized as a miracle-worker, to which further legends could be added.

This then can explain how this one miracle "legend" popped up so suddenly, contrary to the norm, and also how additional elements, possibly fictional, could have been added so easily to the original facts, including extra teachings and claims about him.

But you have to identify what he was to start from, at the beginning, to separate him from other religious teachers who did not become credited with miracle acts, other than the normal mythologizing over many centuries in which such legends could evolve.


Gautama Buddha comes to mind as an example of that.

But his case is one of mythologizing which required centuries, at least 400 years.


And then there are actual known historical figures that had myths of 'magical powers' attributed to them... Like the leaders of the Kim family in North Korea.

But that's due to political power which they imposed onto a suppressed population which was forced to accept the prescribed mythology imposed by state power and police enforcement. It's easy for someone with vast political power over millions of subjects to impose their myths onto the subservient population which must pay recognition or be killed.

It's ludicrous to suggest that Jesus in the 1st century, or his apostles, had any such power over people to impose state-mandated myths onto them.


Indeed, I conclude that Jesus existed and that all his amazing powers of calming storms à la Elijah / Elisha were grafted on later.

"à la Elijah / Elisha"? In other words, 300 years later those amazing powers were grafted on? meaning the Gospels must have been written about 350 AD? 300 years later than the reported events, like the Elijah / Elisha stories were written 300 years later than the reported events? And yet the scholars all say they are 1st-century writings. And, how could the Council of Nicea have convened in 325 AD to resolve the "Trinity" problems before Christ and his miracles had even happened yet?

Or -- "à la Elijah / Elisha" meaning the real crucifixion etc. must have happened about 300 BC instead of the 1st century AD, to allow the necessary time gap for the "amazing powers" mythologizing to take place? But then that puts it much earlier than Caesar Augustus and other historical figures named in the accounts.

How about "amazing powers" à la King Pyrrhus and his Magic Toe instead of à la Elijah / Elisha?

Whoops! No, that won't work either. It required 400 years for the storytellers to graft that Magic Toe onto the King Pyrrhus story. So then how do you get these "amazing powers" grafted on in only 20-70 years?


I sometimes wonder why he didn't turn the water into wine before walking on it...

No way -- you have to walk on it FIRST, and only then can it be turned into wine. Silly!

Correction: there is one way to turn it into wine first and then walk on it, which is to first turn it into a fig tree and curse it, with the help of King Pyrrhus and his Magic Toe.
 
There were plenty of religious preachers, and yet none had miracle myths attached to them within only 1 or 2 generations. What is it about this one that so many different factions wanted to attach their teachings and mythical stories to him?
There are plenty of lumber jacks, and yet only Paul Bunyan had stories of miraculous deeds made about him. What is it about this one that so many wnated to attach their stories to?
 
There were plenty of religious preachers, and yet none had miracle myths attached to them within only 1 or 2 generations. What is it about this one that so many different factions wanted to attach their teachings and mythical stories to him?
There are plenty of lumber jacks, and yet only Paul Bunyan had stories of miraculous deeds made about him. What is it about this one that so many wnated to attach their stories to?

Paul Bunyan is not Jesus so obviously Paul Bunyan's feats are merely products of folklore and legend.

/special pleading
 
This shit again. It takes ZERO time to write fiction. I am the Lord PHenaolCQE#@@, the one true God above ALL OTHER GODS.


There. I just did it, you fucking moron. "You" in the general "fucking moron" sense.
 
This shit again. It takes ZERO time to write fiction. I am the Lord PHenaolCQE#@@, the one true God above ALL OTHER GODS.


It takes the passage of time to enable someone to belatedly make unfalsifiable fact claims.
Legendary accretion cant happen in the historical blink of an eye.


There. I just did it, you fucking moron. "You" in the general "fucking moron" sense.

I see you're still bringing your intellectual "A" game.
 
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