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Forgery suspect killed by cop restricting his airway

Meanwhile in Salt Lake City,

He emerged from his vehicle with a hunting bow he had on him and supposedly starting brandishing it toward the crowd ... seemingly threatening to shoot arrows at people. One woman had a brief convo with the guy, asking if he's serious ... and if he considers himself American. He says he does, and then appears to start actually firing at some folks.

It looks like one person might've been hit as they fell to the ground, and when the man turned and tried shooting at some more people ... he got bum-rushed with a BUNCH of bodies, who proceeded to beat his ass and take him to the ground.
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source:
https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/30/salt-lake-city-man-uses-hunting-bow-on-protesters-swarmed-attacked/ - has a video
 
laughing dog said:
Are you seriously claiming that "left wing" disinformation has been going on for over 40 years,
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Even longer than that. Left-wing radicalism of the 60s and 70s was the genesis of it, and it sadly is still with us since these radicals have unfortunately managed to march through the institutions.
Totally irrelevant.
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Totally relevant. The Left paints a completely distorted picture, and common people believe it. I have heard of black people who say they are afraid to go outside because they fear they would be killed by police. That is obvious nonsense, but it is result of sustained propaganda.


The conclusion in your 2nd sentence does not follow from the first. And, of course, neither sentence is relevant.
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It does follow and it is relevant. There are no problems with justified police shootings. It is the non-justified ones we need to focus on, rather than conflating the two to inflame racial animosity.

What you don't get is that the police are mistrusted because of their behavior over the past 40 years. It is not just shootings. It is the day to day business of stopping people for no reason.
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What evidence is there that people are being stopped for no reason?

Hell, in Minneapolis, they arrested people for "loitering" (mainly blacks and native americans) even though blacks are a small proportion of the population. Where I live, if a black person was arrested for a crime, their picture was on the front page. Very few photos of white people arrested for a crime.
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Show me some evidence that the arrest rates are different than rates of committing these crimes.
 
BWE said:
But it's also stupid as shit.
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Why do you think it's stupid? It's the whole point of having police. Trained professionals whose job it is to engage suspects so we don't have a free-for-all anarchy that some people apparently wish for.
 
Derec said:
Even longer than that. Left-wing radicalism of the 60s and 70s was the genesis of it, and it sadly is still with us since these radicals have unfortunately managed to march through the institutions.
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Did you learn that at a John Birch seminar?

Please explain in detail how that "radicalism" caused the Minneapolis Police Department to earn the mistrust of the local minority communities and how it caused those 4 police officers to lose their humanity.
Derec said:
Totally relevant. The Left paints a completely distorted picture, and common people believe it. I have heard of black people who say they are afraid to go outside because they fear they would be killed by police. That is obvious nonsense, but it is result of sustained propaganda.
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Of course, it has nothing whatsoever with their personal experiences.


Derec said:
It does follow and it is relevant. There are no problems with justified police shootings. It is the non-justified ones we need to focus on, rather than conflating the two to inflame racial animosity.
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Of course there are no problems with "justified" police shootings. The problem is how some of them are justified.


Derec said:
What evidence is there that people are being stopped for no reason?
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Other than their stories and a lack of an arrest?


Derec said:
Show me some evidence that the arrest rates are different than rates of committing these crimes.
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From an ACLU report https://www.aclu-mn.org/en/press-releases/aclu-releases-data-showing-racial-disparities-low-level-arrests-minneapolis)
The Minneapolis Police Department's own data, as reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Uniform Crime Reporting, reveals that between 2004 and 2012, an African American individual was, on average:

11.5 times more likely to be arrested than a white individual for marijuana possession;
8.86 times more likely to be arrested than a white individual for disorderly conduct;
7.54 times more likely to be arrested than a white individual for vagrancy; and
16.39 times more likely to be arrested than a white juvenile for curfew/loitering
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Does anyone think that blacks "loiter" 16.4 times as much as whites or that blacks are "vagrant" 7.5 times as much or that they engage in disorderly conduct 8.86 times as much as whites or have marijuana in their possession 11.5 times as much as whites?
 
Does anyone think that blacks "loiter" 16.4 times as much as whites or that blacks are "vagrant" 7.5 times as much or that they engage in disorderly conduct 8.86 times as much as whites or have marijuana in their possession 11.5 times as much as whites?
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How would you know? Are you citing only your own sense of incredulity?

It seems to me that if the statistics were about something else - like say men are twice as likely to be arrested for disorderly conduct compared to women, would you be willing to say that entire discrepancy is due to bias by the cops against men?
 
Metaphor said:
Does anyone think that blacks "loiter" 16.4 times as much as whites or that blacks are "vagrant" 7.5 times as much or that they engage in disorderly conduct 8.86 times as much as whites or have marijuana in their possession 11.5 times as much as whites?
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How would you know? Are you citing only your own sense of incredulity?

It seems to me that if the statistics were about something else - like say men are twice as likely to be arrested for disorderly conduct compared to women, would you be willing to say that entire discrepancy is due to bias by the cops against men?
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My take on this is as follows.

Yes, there are bias issues of the sort that liberals and the left are rightly concerned about, but they are sometimes overstated by them and in response understated by conservatives and the right.

So as with most things in life the nuanced truth that is somewhere in between gets lost in the battle between the two ends of the political spectrum.

No offence, but imo you personally, along with a number of others here at this forum, do not give adequate or reasonable acknowledgement to the problematical issues that do exist for ethnic minorities (and women) to the extent that they do exist, and as such you are effectively at least to some limited extent denialist of them.

Yes, overly woke liberalism and radical leftism (and indeed feminism for that matter) involve unhelpful distortions, but imo you and several others here are no better in the opposite direction.

What is needed is a reasonable meeting of minds somewhere in the middle.

Something similar could be said of the liberal outgroup bias illustrated in the article you posted. In some ways it’s a good thing in some ways it’s arguably not (because it’s a distortion of reality). But the same could be said for ingroup bias.

Moderate, reasonable outgroup concern is arguably a vital ingredient in creating fairer societies. In the case of modern wokeness, it may go too far.

Imo what people need to do is stop taking sides so much. More acknowledgement of the other side would be a good thing imo. By and large it’s a better approach to conflict resolution and is usually productive.
 
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ruby sparks said:
My take on this is as follows.

Yes, there are bias issues of the sort that liberals and the left are rightly concerned about, but they are overstated by them and in response understated by conservatives and the right.

So as with most things in life the nuanced truth that is somewhere in between gets lost in the battle between the two ends of the political spectrum.
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What makes you think that's true of most things in life, or even in politics? Some people could simply be wrong.

ruby sparks said:
No offence, but imo you personally, along with a number of others here at this forum, do not give adequate or reasonable acknowledgement to the issues that do exist to the extent that that do, and as such you are denialist of them.
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It seems to me quite the opposite.

It is the hard left which seems to me denialist. It is an article of faith that discrepancies between groups are always due to unfair societal discrimination. This assumption is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit, but it is always there.

For example, many feminists, although they are extremely anxious about men's violence towards women, also appear to believe that there's nothing about men that makes them more violent except "the patriarchy"--that men are socialised to be more violent and that explains all of the discrepancy. This seems to me a wholesale denial of biology, and, if not a denial of biology, an implicit assumption that socialisation is more important than biology (and that the proposed socialisation fixes are adequate and justified).

Yes, overly woke liberalism and radical leftism involves unhelpful distortions, but imo you and several others here are no better in the opposite direction.

What is needed is a reasonable meeting of minds somewhere in the middle.
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Why do you accuse me of being in "the opposite direction"?

The opposite direction appears to me to mean "there is no discrimination against any groups in Western society", or "discrimination and prejudice explains none of the gap between groups in Western society", which is also a position I don't hold.
 
Metaphor said:
What makes you think that's true of most things in life, or even in politics? Some people could simply be wrong.



It seems to me quite the opposite.

It is the hard left which seems to me denialist. It is an article of faith that discrepancies between groups are always due to unfair societal discrimination. This assumption is sometimes explicit and sometimes implicit, but it is always there.

For example, many feminists, although they are extremely anxious about men's violence towards women, also appear to believe that there's nothing about men that makes them more violent except "the patriarchy"--that men are socialised to be more violent and that explains all of the discrepancy. This seems to me a wholesale denial of biology, and, if not a denial of biology, an implicit assumption that socialisation is more important than biology (and that the proposed socialisation fixes are adequate and justified).

Yes, overly woke liberalism and radical leftism involves unhelpful distortions, but imo you and several others here are no better in the opposite direction.

What is needed is a reasonable meeting of minds somewhere in the middle.
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Why do you accuse me of being in "the opposite direction"?

The opposite direction appears to me to mean "there is no discrimination against any groups in Western society", or "discrimination and prejudice explains none of the gap between groups in Western society", which is also a position I don't hold.
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The opposite general tendency I mean. Whatever your underlying nuanced positions (and I am sure you have them because I don’t think of you as a bad person, far from it) you choose to focus, in your postings at least, almost exclusively on attacking and criticising the ‘other side’. That is not imo a balanced approach, and imo not the best way.

All you are doing is overreacting to the excesses of some others, and so you are just exhibiting a different version of the same sorts of myopic shortcomings that they exhibit, the shortcomings that tend to prevent or reduce the chances of benign outcomes for all concerned.
 
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Look at the politics forum here at this site. How many issues get resolved? How much agreement is found? Very little, even though there is potential at least for a great deal of it, since we all share common perspectives underneath.

No, nearly every single thread is a predictable, rehearsed, recurring, pointless battle about the same things, no matter what the OP. Until the next OP.
 
Metaphor said:
What makes you think that's true of most things in life, or even in politics? Some people could simply be wrong.
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I most definitely take the view that in human affairs, be they interpersonal or societal, the complicated truth is usually ‘somewhere in between’. Not always, obviously, so yes, sometimes the accurate truth will be very close to one side, rather than being in the middle.

And I’m not against strongly advanced arguments that involve pronounced disagreement. I just think the potential benefits of more agreement are easily lost. They are imo often the crucial missing elements.
 
Perhaps I have been a bit negative, in light of the fact that a number of posters in this thread, who I would not have necessarily expected it from, did not hesitate to condemn the actions of the police in the OP incident.
 
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