Trans activists: Trans women should not be required to suppress testosterone to play on women's teams

[Jarhyn]

... snip ....

In short, we will always protest discriminatory hate based spaces and we will always push them to the margins and this is the correct shape of nature. When you try to push those spaces onto the public, well, good luck getting a business license. Cry more, and all that.

Yeah, you tell them. Men should not be excluded from those discriminatory women's sports. The fact that the women could not successfully compete with large, muscular, fast men is irrelevant.

You are arguing in such bad faith.

As I have said repeatedly in this very thread, I endorse seperating sports on the basis of hormonal exposure and hormonally based competitive advantage. These are neither the same thing as sex OR gender.

We can do this without ever uttering the words "male" or "female" without ever thinking about penises or vaginas or even testicles or ovaries.

 

[skepticalbip]

... snip ....

In short, we will always protest discriminatory hate based spaces and we will always push them to the margins and this is the correct shape of nature. When you try to push those spaces onto the public, well, good luck getting a business license. Cry more, and all that.

Yeah, you tell them. Men should not be excluded from those discriminatory women's sports. The fact that the women could not successfully compete with large, muscular, fast men is irrelevant.

You are arguing in such bad faith.

As I have said repeatedly in this very thread, I endorse seperating sports on the basis of hormonal exposure and hormonally based competitive advantage. These are neither the same thing as sex OR gender.

We can do this without ever uttering the words "male" or "female" without ever thinking about penises or vaginas or even testicles or ovaries.

You are the one arguing in bad faith. Women's sports were created specifically so women could compete among themselves on a level playing field. If you think trans athletes should be allowed to compete in sports teams then they already can... if they can qualify athletically in what has come to be called 'men's sports teams' (before the creation of women's sports teams they were just called sports teams). There are even a few women who have qualified to play in 'men's football' - primarily as place kickers since they didn't have the athletic ability to go nose-to-nose with 300 pound, all muscle male linemen..

 

[Jarhyn]

You are arguing in such bad faith.

As I have said repeatedly in this very thread, I endorse seperating sports on the basis of hormonal exposure and hormonally based competitive advantage. These are neither the same thing as sex OR gender.

We can do this without ever uttering the words "male" or "female" without ever thinking about penises or vaginas or even testicles or ovaries.

You are the one arguing in bad faith. Women's sports were created specifically so women could compete among themselves on a level playing field. If you think trans athletes should be allowed to compete in sports teams then they already can... if they can qualify athletically in what has come to be called 'men's sports teams' (before the creation of women's sports teams they were just called sports teams). There are even a few women who have qualified to play in 'men's football'.

Continuing with your bad faith, I see.

As I have pointed out, there are plenty of "trans" women today who gave never felt the influence of testosterone.

You are trying to use "woman with a vagina and ovaries" as a proxy for "never experienced testosterone based puberty", the actual state of nature which produces those advantages you are whinging about.

 

[skepticalbip]

You are arguing in such bad faith.

As I have said repeatedly in this very thread, I endorse seperating sports on the basis of hormonal exposure and hormonally based competitive advantage. These are neither the same thing as sex OR gender.

We can do this without ever uttering the words "male" or "female" without ever thinking about penises or vaginas or even testicles or ovaries.

You are the one arguing in bad faith. Women's sports were created specifically so women could compete among themselves on a level playing field. If you think trans athletes should be allowed to compete in sports teams then they already can... if they can qualify athletically in what has come to be called 'men's sports teams' (before the creation of women's sports teams they were just called sports teams). There are even a few women who have qualified to play in 'men's football'.

Continuing with your bad faith, I see.

As I have pointed out, there are plenty of "trans" women today who gave never felt the influence of testosterone.

You are trying to use "woman with a vagina and ovaries" as a proxy for "never experienced testosterone based puberty", the actual state of nature which produces those advantages you are whinging about.

Do you really think you are psychic? Or are you just throwing up a strawman?
Women's sports are for those humans with only two X chromosomes. Women's sports was created for them. If you think trans athletes should be allowed to compete then they already are. You just want them to be able to compete in the wrong sports teams - those sports teams that were created to seperate themselves from athletes with Y chromosomes.

 

[Jarhyn]

Continuing with your bad faith, I see.

As I have pointed out, there are plenty of "trans" women today who gave never felt the influence of testosterone.

You are trying to use "woman with a vagina and ovaries" as a proxy for "never experienced testosterone based puberty", the actual state of nature which produces those advantages you are whinging about.

Do you really think you are psychic? Or are you just throwing up a strawman?
Women's sports are for those humans with only two X chromosomes. Women's sports was created for them. If you think trans athletes should be allowed to compete then they already are. You just want them to be able to compete in the wrong teams - those teams that were created to get away from athletes with Y chromosomes.

Ah, so you are trying to use chromosomes as a basis for discrimination. Does that mean that XX but born with a penis should compete in "women's" sports, then?

You keep using gross genital anatomy or genotype rather than the thing that actually matters to your own argument: phenotype.

No public business may discriminate on the basis of sex, gender, or sexual identity. Sports are a business.

If you want to discriminate, you should be expected to draw your bounds on the dimension that actually matters: testosterone exposure.

YOU have a responsibility to justify "women's" as a continuing dimension of separation. You have not. You continue to not.

In all reality, this would bar any trans woman from competing who has undertaken a testosterone puberty, at least until we can establish fairly reliably when and whether that exposure will have a continued effect on competitive advantage. But that apparently isn't good enough for you. You want to engage in sex based discrimination, rather than consider any other alternative

 

[skepticalbip]

^ ^ ^
Only because that is the way you want it to be. Regardless of what Walt Disney claimed, wishes do not make it so.

Trans-athletes with xx or xy are free participate in what is now termed as 'men's sports' if they have the athletic ability.

What the fuck is your problem with allowing women to compete on a level playing field? Good luck with your 'legal' claims... women a protected class for a while now along with blacks and other 'minorities' with set-asides and other legal protections.

 

[Jarhyn]

^ ^ ^
Only because that is the way you want it to be. Regardless of what Walt Disney claimed, wishes do not make it so.

Trans-athletes with xx or xy are free participate in what is now termed as 'men's sports' if they have the athletic ability.

What the fuck is your problem with allowing women to compete on a level playing field? Good luck with your 'legal' claims... women a protected class for a while now along with blacks and other 'minorities' with set-asides and other legal protections.

I have no problem with allowing a level playing field for testosterone-free persons. What I have a problem with is making a category "natural women", that is ostensibly a subset of "testosterone free persons" and then only allowing that subset to compete on aforementioned level playing field

You are here disingenuously ignoring that YOU are here crowing for exclusion of the set "testosterone free persons not born with vaginas and ovaries". All I can assume that means is that for you that it isn't actually about the competitive advantage, that it is about wanting to exclude trans women from a level playing field; or perhaps you just don't understand that "woman <insert other no-true-scotsman qualifiers>" != "Testosterone-free person".

 

[skepticalbip]

^ ^ ^
Only because that is the way you want it to be. Regardless of what Walt Disney claimed, wishes do not make it so.

Trans-athletes with xx or xy are free participate in what is now termed as 'men's sports' if they have the athletic ability.

What the fuck is your problem with allowing women to compete on a level playing field? Good luck with your 'legal' claims... women a protected class for a while now along with blacks and other 'minorities' with set-asides and other legal protections.

I have no problem with allowing a level playing field for testosterone-free persons. What I have a problem with is making a category "natural women", that is ostensibly a subset of "testosterone free persons" and then only allowing that subset to compete on aforementioned level playing field

You are here disingenuously ignoring that YOU are here crowing for exclusion of the set "testosterone free persons not born with vaginas and ovaries". All I can assume that means is that for you that it isn't actually about the competitive advantage, that it is about wanting to exclude trans women from a level playing field; or perhaps you just don't understand that "woman <insert other no-true-scotsman qualifiers>" != "Testosterone-free person".

There are no "testosterone free people" just as there are no "estrogen free people", only people with lower levels. And you continue to ignore that -- "Trans-athletes (or anyone) with xx or xy are free participate in what is now termed as 'men's sports' if they have the athletic ability." So obviously you have a real problem with allowing the legally protected class (those with xx) to have their level playing field.

 

[repoman]

I wonder if Navritilova was a naturally high testosterone producer or was unusually effective at using what little she produced.

Did her face have a fast manliness transformation or was she like that naturally?

 

[ruby sparks]

So obviously you have a real problem with allowing the legally protected class (those with xx) to have their level playing field.

If I understand you right........

It's true that xx would not be competing on a level playing field, it would be unlevel, but it would be in their favour, so it's not the same issue.

 

[skepticalbip]

So obviously you have a real problem with allowing the legally protected class (those with xx) to have their level playing field.

I don't understand that. It's true that xx would not be competing on a level playing field, it would be unlevel, but it would be in their favour, so it's not the same issue.

Records of trans-women (xy) competing in women's sports have a large disproportionate advantage if the win/loss records are to be taken as meaningful.

 

[ruby sparks]

So obviously you have a real problem with allowing the legally protected class (those with xx) to have their level playing field.

I don't understand that. It's true that xx would not be competing on a level playing field, it would be unlevel, but it would be in their favour, so it's not the same issue.

Records of trans-women (xy) competing in women's sports have a large disproportionate advantage if the win/loss records are to be taken as meaningful.

Ok but....

Ah. I got my chromosomes confused.

 

[skepticalbip]

Records of trans-women (xy) competing in women's sports have a large disproportionate advantage if the win/loss records are to be taken as meaningful.

Ok but....

Ah. I got my chromosomes confused.

No worries, mate. I'm sure I would too if not for my girlfriend always saying "this job needs a y chromosome" any time there is something she doesn't want to do.

 

[Jarhyn]

So obviously you have a real problem with allowing the legally protected class (those with xx) to have their level playing field.

I don't understand that. It's true that xx would not be competing on a level playing field, it would be unlevel, but it would be in their favour, so it's not the same issue.

Records of trans-women (xy) competing in women's sports have a large disproportionate advantage if the win/loss records are to be taken as meaningful.

Records of individuals with atypical levels of testosterone for the class have a large disproportionate advantage.

Women are not a legally protected class. "Gender and sex" is a legally protected category. "Straight" is as protected gay. "XY" us as protected as "XX".

These protections cover *literally everyone*.

When YOU can establish that these competitive issues arise from anything other than testosterone exposure, Then I might care what you have to say.

But it isn't. It's literally the steroid exposure. It's always been the steroid exposure. Genotype is not phenotype. It was the steroid exposure when Russia caused problems with their leveraging intersexed women whose ovaries produced testosterone.

Do the math. Chromosomes are not wholely developed beings. You are forgetting all the shit that goes on between "x+x in egg" and "actual human being".

Go take your genotype essentialism and stuff it.

Those individuals who are "testosterone free" (and you can also take your miniscule background level technicalities and stuff then too), even actively suppressing and antagonizing their testosterone, deserve to be just as protected, on the basis of sex and gender.

 

[Metaphor]

You are arguing in such bad faith.

As I have said repeatedly in this very thread, I endorse seperating sports on the basis of hormonal exposure and hormonally based competitive advantage. These are neither the same thing as sex OR gender.

We can do this without ever uttering the words "male" or "female" without ever thinking about penises or vaginas or even testicles or ovaries.

You are the one arguing in bad faith. Women's sports were created specifically so women could compete among themselves on a level playing field. If you think trans athletes should be allowed to compete in sports teams then they already can... if they can qualify athletically in what has come to be called 'men's sports teams' (before the creation of women's sports teams they were just called sports teams). There are even a few women who have qualified to play in 'men's football'.

Continuing with your bad faith, I see.

As I have pointed out, there are plenty of "trans" women today who gave never felt the influence of testosterone.

There are zero transwomen who have never "felt" the influence of androgens, because they were flooded when androgens in the womb.

 

[Trausti]

 

[Jarhyn]

Continuing with your bad faith, I see.

As I have pointed out, there are plenty of "trans" women today who gave never felt the influence of testosterone.

There are zero transwomen who have never "felt" the influence of androgens, because they were flooded when androgens in the womb.

This certainly causes some changes, but you are still under that pesky little burden of proof for validating that the DHT bath that made a penis happen has any meaningful impact on competitive advantage. Because the research seems to indicate it's the lifetime of steroids that confers the meaningful competitive advantages

I would contend that whatever other minutiae of development that is secondary in particular to the DHT bath confers no material advantage beyond the development of the steroid factory that won't even turn on until adolescence

 

[Metaphor]

Continuing with your bad faith, I see.

As I have pointed out, there are plenty of "trans" women today who gave never felt the influence of testosterone.

There are zero transwomen who have never "felt" the influence of androgens, because they were flooded when androgens in the womb.

This certainly causes some changes, but you are still under that pesky little burden of proof for validating that the DHT bath that made a penis happen has any meaningful impact on competitive advantage. Because the research seems to indicate it's the lifetime of steroids that confers the meaningful competitive advantages

I would contend that whatever other minutiae of development that is secondary in particular to the DHT bath confers no material advantage beyond the development of the steroid factory that won't even turn on until adolescence

Non. You want sports to be separated by gender and not sex. The burden of proof is wholly upon you.

 

[Jarhyn]

This certainly causes some changes, but you are still under that pesky little burden of proof for validating that the DHT bath that made a penis happen has any meaningful impact on competitive advantage. Because the research seems to indicate it's the lifetime of steroids that confers the meaningful competitive advantages

I would contend that whatever other minutiae of development that is secondary in particular to the DHT bath confers no material advantage beyond the development of the steroid factory that won't even turn on until adolescence

Non. You want sports to be separated by gender and not sex. The burden of proof is wholly upon you.

No, I don't. In fact I have explicitly stated what I want: sports to be separated on the basis of testosterone-based competitive advantage, which is agnostic to gender or sex however you wish to define them, for the purposes of accounting for ALL edge cases. I am for stripping sports league qualifications of any gendered or sexed language, putting it in direct relation to the actual thing that those other approaches model only badly.

Of course, this model creates a clear cutout that allows trans people an opportunity to compete on a level playing field, assuming that they themselves have only experienced a single estrogen-based puberty, something that describes more and more trans people today.

 

[repoman]

Speaking of lifetime exposure, would a post pubescent woman taking supplemental androgens of the right type and doing specific exercises increase her long term strength even years later?

Maybe thicker ligaments and more muscle fibers would last, not sure.

Looking at a younger and then older Navratilova, gives shades of Mark Mcgwire