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Why is FAIR TRADE better than FREE TRADE?

Choose between the following:

  • FREE TRADE is better than FAIR TRADE.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • FAIR TRADE is better than FREE TRADE.

    Votes: 17 85.0%

  • Total voters
    20
Unless we accept the new reality of robotisation displacing unqualified workers from the jobs market at an increasing scale, we will continue to fix the wrong problem. So far I have not seen any politician talk about this new situation in the jobs market. It's just brushed aside. Just like you are doing.

But that's a very hard problem to fix and has no bad guy to stick with the bill.

It's much easier to blame the rich and propose a simple solution: eat the rich.

In the leftist world they're always a good answer and the blame always lies with the ones in power. Thus it must be the second option.

Never mind that it's like the drunk looking for his keys under the streetlight because that's where he can see.
 
I have answered again and again, only to have the points brushed aside. If you think that there is nothing wrong with working full time yet struggling to meet the basic needs of life, you have no idea. You are unable to mentally put yourself in that situation or understand it.

Your points get brushed aside because you're basically preaching.

This time you present an article--but it's got a big problem. The harms it talks about are due to poverty, not due to inequality. Poverty is harmful, duh!
 
I've seen very illiquid equity. My current boss got royally screwed due to illiquid shares.
So? The 10 Trillion is not mostly illiquid shares.


How about addressing the point?

You're after another manifestation of eat the rich. No matter how much you try to polish that turd it's still a turd--you get a short term bump but suffer a long term loss because of it.
I am pointing out you are emitting turds and that is all I am doing. I am not interested in your nonsensical "eat the rich" metaphors.
 
I have answered again and again, only to have the points brushed aside. If you think that there is nothing wrong with working full time yet struggling to meet the basic needs of life, you have no idea. You are unable to mentally put yourself in that situation or understand it.

Your points get brushed aside because you're basically preaching.

This time you present an article--but it's got a big problem. The harms it talks about are due to poverty, not due to inequality. Poverty is harmful, duh!

I've presented several articles that deal with the issue I am pointing to without preaching....you on the other hand have only protested while providing nothing to support your own protestations.
 
Yes, USA has a nightmarishingly complicated tax system only rivalled by that of now defunct USSR. But this development is global. Not just USA. So it's not that. Clearly. The problem is automation and robotisation. The problem is a fundamental shift in the realities of the labour market on a scale we haven't seen since the Spinning Jenny was introduced.

Nothing you have said actually justifies the situation. For example, to say ''So we'd expect capitalists to "invest" more in management, relatively. Since it's a competitive market capitalists are competing for competent leadership which pushes up their wages.'' ''As for wages having stagnated. That too is something we'd expect to see in an economy where capital (ie computers) increasingly does all the work itself'' - is brushing aside the problem of growing inequity as something inevitable. Not only inevitable but with tones of desirability, That this is the way the world is going, suck it up.

I do not desire this. I see any inequality as undesirable in the jobs market.

What I desire is to be accurate about the causes of wages dropping. There's a danger in missapplying blame. Donald Trump blames Mexican immigrants and the Chinese. This risks causing pointless diplomatic friction and pushing us towards WW3. It's good to be accurate about stuff.

Unless we accept the new reality of robotisation displacing unqualified workers from the jobs market at an increasing scale, we will continue to fix the wrong problem. So far I have not seen any politician talk about this new situation in the jobs market. It's just brushed aside. Just like you are doing.

I'm not brushing anything aside. I am pointing to a problem in society; an ever growing inequality in wealth and power. Wealth accumulating into the hands of a small percentage of the population while the rest are left floundering. The reasons for this situation are many, and can be explored.

But you keep talking about as if the free market should magically make sure that the free market distribute wages fairly. As if it has a duty to do so. Aren't you?
 
Latest "fair trade" doctrine: Businesses can't ever increase prices.

or, Businesses cannot pass along their cost to customers. Or, they can pass along anything but LABOR cost, which magically cannot be passed along like all other costs because labor cost is consecrated with Holy Water making it immune to being passed along like all other production costs.


FAIR TRADE to whining worker: Oh you poor victim! Let's guilt-trip your employer into raising your wage = higher cost of production = higher prices consumers have to pay = higher cost of living for all.
<<snip>>​

This is the core of your argument. And you are wrong about this.

Higher wages don't result in higher prices. Higher wages result in lower profits.

You mean ALL higher costs result in lower profits but no higher prices? You mean a seller NEVER increases his price when his cost increases? Just the profit decreases and the price always remains the same, no matter what cost goes up for a seller/producer?

So, when the price of gasoline went up, back around 2008 or so, no stores increased their prices as a result? no truckers increased their prices to companies they delivered to? You don't remember that there were many price increases for a time, and it looked like we had some inflation again?

Or you think there is something magical about labor cost, such that whenever labor cost goes up, the producer always takes a cut in profit and never raises price? while for all other cost increases the producer does increase prices?

There's a term for that notion: Wacko Retard-brain Childish Crybaby Idiot Economics. What kind of mentality would insist that for any cost increase the producer does raise the price, EXCEPT for LABOR COST only -- wages -- in which case the prices are never raised? You have to be a nutcase to think that.


How do you think that prices are set?

Always to maximize profit long-term, no matter what the changes are in the production. And of course the producer/seller can miscalculate on how much to increase price, or what other adjustments to make. They might restrain price in some cases, hoping the cost will go back down. But they always put the price where needed -- sometimes higher -- to maximize long-term profit. If the cost goes up, with no other change, then something has to give, and higher price is inevitably a choice which is made, as needed to prevent the profit from falling as much. Minimum loss of profit/revenue is always the goal. If you can't see that this must mean higher price as part of the solution, then you need to go back to the 1st or 2nd grade to learn some arithmetic.

I.e., Profit = Revenue minus cost. Like 4 minus 2 = 2.


Who do you think sets prices?

The Great White Pumpkin.


Your claim above indicates that you believe that a business can raise prices any time it needs to.

It always raises prices when necessary to maximize long-term profit and according to its ability to calculate the correct amount. And the delay between the cost increase and the price increase varies according to many circumstances. There are reasons to not do the price increase immediately, especially if the cost increase was unexpected or the future is unpredictable. If the cost is likely to go back down, then maybe it won't increase the price. There are reasons to keep prices steady rather than raising and lowering them erratically.

Just because there are many different factors pushing costs/prices up or down doesn't change the fact that overall cost increase leads to price increase. This is a general description of the causal connection over time, not a day-by-day description of the prices jumping up and down constantly with every minor change going on. If several employees get sick on the same day, causing a disruption, that can mean higher cost, but that doesn't mean the prices are all jacked up for a day or 2 and then go back down when it's back to normal. This is about long-term causation of cost toward price.


This is wrong.

So then, at the supermarket the price of produce never goes up according to changes in the cost or the supply.


A business is constrained by the market from raising prices.

So no prices ever go up? Or, no business can ever raise its price unless the whole "market" goes up together, i.e., all of the prices for all sellers increasing only together simultaneously?

I was only kidding about the "Great White Pumpkin," but you apparently believe there is a Great Price Setter in the Sky who reaches down into all the markets and sets the prices at the same level for every seller, so that no single company ever increases its price above the Universal Level set by the Great Cosmic Price Setter.

This is a good place to note that all the arguments claiming "fair" trade is better than "free" trade ultimately have to fall back onto some kind of Wacko Nutcase Economics in order to try to make any sense. The "fair" trade theme in one way or another is always to demand higher wages, above market supply-and-demand, but this is always based really on Crybaby sentiment only, or the impulse to pander to wage-earners generally and scapegoat employers who are an easy target. And then to provide a rationale for this, the panderer has to hallucinate some kind of Economics philosophy to make sense of it, and so comes up with nutcase arguments, like in this case saying businesses can't ever increase their prices.

One way or another, it's always some kind of nutcase wacko theory which denies the reality of supply-and-demand and the need for competition and profit-motive incentive to create better performance by producers. And so disregarding the need for good performance by producers, the panderer hallucinates that production somehow automatically happens the same, no matter what, and so all that matters is to feel sorry for wage-earners (majority of producers), which is popular and wins applause from the mob -- and so in the end it all boils down to just a popularity poll of winning this applause from the idiot masses.
 
You are trying to defend the indefensible. You do that by invoking things like a 'third piece of the pie' as if there is a completely seperate component to the economy. You state it without explanation or evidence to support your claim.

I have explained what I'm talking about repeatedly--the money that goes into building the factories etc.

The remuneration of ceos doesn't come from that money. That's why it's irrelevant.
 
I have answered again and again, only to have the points brushed aside. If you think that there is nothing wrong with working full time yet struggling to meet the basic needs of life, you have no idea. You are unable to mentally put yourself in that situation or understand it.

Your points get brushed aside because you're basically preaching.

This time you present an article--but it's got a big problem. The harms it talks about are due to poverty, not due to inequality. Poverty is harmful, duh!

:picardfacepalm:
 
I'm not brushing anything aside. I am pointing to a problem in society; an ever growing inequality in wealth and power. Wealth accumulating into the hands of a small percentage of the population while the rest are left floundering. The reasons for this situation are many, and can be explored.

But you keep talking about as if the free market should magically make sure that the free market distribute wages fairly. As if it has a duty to do so. Aren't you?

I'm talking about a power imbalance between management and individual workers that does not allow individual workers sufficient leverage to improve their pay and conditions.

Which is one of the main reasons why workers are falling behind. It began badly for workers at the beginning of the industrial but improvements were won through collective bargaining....pay and conditions that have been gradually eroding away in recent times, individual contracts, legislation that punishes and prevents strikes, etc.l
 
Last edited:
I have answered again and again, only to have the points brushed aside. If you think that there is nothing wrong with working full time yet struggling to meet the basic needs of life, you have no idea. You are unable to mentally put yourself in that situation or understand it.

Your points get brushed aside because you're basically preaching.

This time you present an article--but it's got a big problem. The harms it talks about are due to poverty, not due to inequality. Poverty is harmful, duh!

:picardfacepalm:

Yep, another irony meter blown.
 

Yep, another irony meter blown.

Just so that it is absolutely clear for the peanut gallery: poverty, in the presence of wealth, and in the situation wherein the poor are unable to leverage suitable wages despite hard and useful work, IS inequality.
 
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You are trying to defend the indefensible. You do that by invoking things like a 'third piece of the pie' as if there is a completely seperate component to the economy. You state it without explanation or evidence to support your claim.

I have explained what I'm talking about repeatedly--the money that goes into building the factories etc.

The remuneration of ceos doesn't come from that money. That's why it's irrelevant.

The renumeration of CEOs is a drop in the bucket of the amount of money under discussion.

And when you plot CEO pay vs company size you get a very different picture to the one you're painting.
 

Yep, another irony meter blown.

Just so that it is absolutely clear for the peanut gallery: poverty, in the presence of wealth, and in the situation wherein the poor are unable to leverage suitable wages despite hard and useful work, IS inequality.

Poverty is one example of inequality but inequality encompasses far more.

And note that most poverty is due to not working, not due to low pay. Driving up minimum wage makes it harder for those people to get in the labor force and thus increases the problem. You're actually part of the problem, not part of the solution!
 
I'm not brushing anything aside. I am pointing to a problem in society; an ever growing inequality in wealth and power. Wealth accumulating into the hands of a small percentage of the population while the rest are left floundering. The reasons for this situation are many, and can be explored.

But you keep talking about as if the free market should magically make sure that the free market distribute wages fairly. As if it has a duty to do so. Aren't you?

I'm talking about a power imbalance between management and individual workers that does not allow individual workers sufficient leverage to improve their pay and conditions.

Which is one of the main reasons why workers are falling behind. It began badly for workers at the beginning of the industrial but improvements were won through collective bargaining....pay and conditions that have been gradually eroding away in recent times, individual contracts, legislation that punishes and prevents strikes, etc.l

Ok. We fundamentally disagree about the causes. I think it's because of a shift in technology, and you seem to be a conspiracy theorist.
 
Just so that it is absolutely clear for the peanut gallery: poverty, in the presence of wealth, and in the situation wherein the poor are unable to leverage suitable wages despite hard and useful work, IS inequality.

Poverty is one example of inequality but inequality encompasses far more.

And note that most poverty is due to not working, not due to low pay.
Depends where one lives. And, of course, whether one can work or not, or if work is available.
 
I'm talking about a power imbalance between management and individual workers that does not allow individual workers sufficient leverage to improve their pay and conditions.

Which is one of the main reasons why workers are falling behind. It began badly for workers at the beginning of the industrial but improvements were won through collective bargaining....pay and conditions that have been gradually eroding away in recent times, individual contracts, legislation that punishes and prevents strikes, etc.l

Ok. We fundamentally disagree about the causes. I think it's because of a shift in technology, and you seem to be a conspiracy theorist.

Of course a shift in technology is an ever growing factor, and will probably be the single most important factor, but wage stagnation began before it was the greatest factor, including in industries where mechanization is still not a large factor, construction, repairs, etc.
 
Just so that it is absolutely clear for the peanut gallery: poverty, in the presence of wealth, and in the situation wherein the poor are unable to leverage suitable wages despite hard and useful work, IS inequality.

Poverty is one example of inequality but inequality encompasses far more.

And note that most poverty is due to not working, not due to low pay. Driving up minimum wage makes it harder for those people to get in the labor force and thus increases the problem. You're actually part of the problem, not part of the solution!

We are talking about pay and conditions for workers, not the unemployed, which is not a huge factor unless there is large pool of unemployed workers to draw from, which drives pay rates down simply because employers don't need to offer attractive rates....which means lower production cost and more money in their own pockets.

Human nature 101. .
 
I'm talking about a power imbalance between management and individual workers that does not allow individual workers sufficient leverage to improve their pay and conditions.

Which is one of the main reasons why workers are falling behind. It began badly for workers at the beginning of the industrial but improvements were won through collective bargaining....pay and conditions that have been gradually eroding away in recent times, individual contracts, legislation that punishes and prevents strikes, etc.l

Ok. We fundamentally disagree about the causes. I think it's because of a shift in technology, and you seem to be a conspiracy theorist.

Of course a shift in technology is an ever growing factor, and will probably be the single most important factor, but wage stagnation began before it was the greatest factor, including in industries where mechanization is still not a large factor, construction, repairs, etc.

That's not how a market works. There's spillover. If a type of job is elimanated, these will switch to other professions pushing down wages. construction workers and janitor type jobs are typically the types of jobs people switch to. So you're just arguing against yourself now.
 
Of course a shift in technology is an ever growing factor, and will probably be the single most important factor, but wage stagnation began before it was the greatest factor, including in industries where mechanization is still not a large factor, construction, repairs, etc.

That's not how a market works. There's spillover. If a type of job is elimanated, these will switch to other professions pushing down wages. construction workers and janitor type jobs are typically the types of jobs people switch to. So you're just arguing against yourself now.

That's not what I meant, not even close.

Here is an example;

''Unions should be prepared to take unlawful industrial action to win bigger pay rises because Australia’s laws make protected action too hard for workers, an influential unionist has argued.''

In Australia wages have stagnated for four years despite continued economic growth and improved labour productivity in part because wage growth from enterprise agreements has been in decline since 1998.

Lyons seized on the “wage crisis” to argue that employers give low pay rises “because they can” and that unions need to see the stagnation as an opportunity to organise and “aggressively position collective action and unions as the way to win pay rises and end wage theft”.

Lyons labelled enterprise level bargaining “a failure” compounded by “very tight restrictions on industrial action [and the] absolute legal prohibition of secondary boycotts or solidarity actions”.

Workers were “atomised”, leading to greater use of contracting out and labour hire to drive down wages. Lyons called for “genuine collective bargaining” including acting “outside the formal system” of protected industrial action.

Lyons told Guardian Australia that unions “absolutely” should be prepared to take unlawful industrial action such as walkouts.

“If the formal system for getting a pay rise doesn’t work, we’re entitled to ignore it,” he said. “The alternative is to concede we’re not going to get a pay rise and that’s not acceptable.”

Furthermore:

''Although it’s rarely celebrated, the right to strike is a fundamental human right enshrined in international law. The right to strike is closely associated with the right of employees to collectively bargain with their employer and also with the rights of freedom of association. For workers, this usually means the right to both join a trade union and to be an active participant in it. In any health check of the right to strike, invariably it is necessary to also examine the capacity of employees to collectively bargain through the unions they belong to. They are inextricably linked.''

''But when it comes to the right to strike, Australia is a backwater. The ILO has been a constant critic of Australia’s failure to comply with its international legal obligations arising from the severe restrictions it imposes on collective bargaining and the right to strike. The criticisms have gone unheeded. Industrial action, including strike action, is dying out. The number of employees whose employment is governed by collective agreements is receding at a rapid rate and the proportion of employees who are union members has collapsed to the point of existential crisis for trade unions. Union density hovers at a pitiful 14.5% of the workforce. ''
 
Of course a shift in technology is an ever growing factor, and will probably be the single most important factor, but wage stagnation began before it was the greatest factor, including in industries where mechanization is still not a large factor, construction, repairs, etc.

That's not how a market works. There's spillover. If a type of job is elimanated, these will switch to other professions pushing down wages. construction workers and janitor type jobs are typically the types of jobs people switch to. So you're just arguing against yourself now.

That's not what I meant, not even close.

Here is an example;

''Unions should be prepared to take unlawful industrial action to win bigger pay rises because Australia’s laws make protected action too hard for workers, an influential unionist has argued.''

In Australia wages have stagnated for four years despite continued economic growth and improved labour productivity in part because wage growth from enterprise agreements has been in decline since 1998.

Lyons seized on the “wage crisis” to argue that employers give low pay rises “because they can” and that unions need to see the stagnation as an opportunity to organise and “aggressively position collective action and unions as the way to win pay rises and end wage theft”.

Lyons labelled enterprise level bargaining “a failure” compounded by “very tight restrictions on industrial action [and the] absolute legal prohibition of secondary boycotts or solidarity actions”.

Workers were “atomised”, leading to greater use of contracting out and labour hire to drive down wages. Lyons called for “genuine collective bargaining” including acting “outside the formal system” of protected industrial action.

Lyons told Guardian Australia that unions “absolutely” should be prepared to take unlawful industrial action such as walkouts.

“If the formal system for getting a pay rise doesn’t work, we’re entitled to ignore it,” he said. “The alternative is to concede we’re not going to get a pay rise and that’s not acceptable.”

Furthermore:

''Although it’s rarely celebrated, the right to strike is a fundamental human right enshrined in international law. The right to strike is closely associated with the right of employees to collectively bargain with their employer and also with the rights of freedom of association. For workers, this usually means the right to both join a trade union and to be an active participant in it. In any health check of the right to strike, invariably it is necessary to also examine the capacity of employees to collectively bargain through the unions they belong to. They are inextricably linked.''

''But when it comes to the right to strike, Australia is a backwater. The ILO has been a constant critic of Australia’s failure to comply with its international legal obligations arising from the severe restrictions it imposes on collective bargaining and the right to strike. The criticisms have gone unheeded. Industrial action, including strike action, is dying out. The number of employees whose employment is governed by collective agreements is receding at a rapid rate and the proportion of employees who are union members has collapsed to the point of existential crisis for trade unions. Union density hovers at a pitiful 14.5% of the workforce. ''

I don't get it. Are you saying that it's illegal for Australian construction workers to strike?
 
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