Police in Utah gun down black cosplayer

[Trausti]

he was?

but instead chose to swing it at the police.

he did?

On the first page of this thead: http://www.sltrib.com/news/1758399-155/hunt-sword-schauerhamer-affidavit-officers-darrien

 

[Malintent]

He had a sword. A cop will shoot to protect bystanders, not just himself.

Okay. Show that they did this. Show that it's illegal for him to have had a sword, or to swing it at nothing.

Good luck!

It is illegal to have possession of a blade, longer than 10 inches, in public, in many states. You can own a sword, and transport it, but you cannot unshealth it and "brandish it". That is illegal. You cannot swing anyhting (not even a rubber chicken) in the general direction of a police officer, without it being considered an assult or attempted assault on a police officer. If a police officer has reasonable cause to determine that you are a threat to himself or another person, then it is legal for him to take measures necessary to protect themselves and / or bystanders. If a katana has a sharp edge, you could kill a person with it in a second. He refused to drop it. He charged. He deserved to die.

"Show" that it is illegal what he did? Don't be stupid. We don't take kindly to stupid 'round these parts.

 

[ksen]

he was?



he did?

On the first page of this thead: http://www.sltrib.com/news/1758399-155/hunt-sword-schauerhamer-affidavit-officers-darrien

Link takes me to a headline and a pic but not story. Maybe it's my browser. I'll try reading it later in a different browser.

 

[ksen]

On the first page of this thead: http://www.sltrib.com/news/1758399-155/hunt-sword-schauerhamer-affidavit-officers-darrien

Link takes me to a headline and a pic but not story. Maybe it's my browser. I'll try reading it later in a different browser.

nm, got it!

Yes, according to the statement given by the officers they said they asked him to surrender the sword in order to get a ride to Orem.

One witness says she saw Hunt swing the sword and a second witness says his statement was misconstrued to say he saw Hunt swing the sword when he didn't actually see Hunt swing the sword.

Hey, since when are cops in the taxi business? I've never seen a cop just give someone a ride that asked for one.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My point. From the article in the OP:

Police said they were responding to a 911 call about a man with a sword when he lunged at them, swinging the weapon.

But his family says the sword was decorative rather than dangerous.

A narrative in the autopsy states an officer fired three shots when Darrien Hunt charged at him, swinging the sword, as the officer got out of his car. Darrien Hunt ran away and police fired four more times as they chased him, the report says. The autopsy found no drugs in his system.

An attorney for the Hunt family, Robert Sykes, disputed the officers' account, saying a picture taken by a bystander shows Hunt smiling as he talked to two officers.

Tim Taylor, chief deputy at the Utah County Attorney's Office, said Tuesday that Hunt talked to officers after they arrived, asking them for a ride.

So, smiling at police officers and then asking police officers for a ride is attacking police officers?

Or only if you are black and/or male?

The families almost always say the guy was innocent. That doesn't prove much.

 

[PyramidHead]

My point. From the article in the OP:



So, smiling at police officers and then asking police officers for a ride is attacking police officers?

Or only if you are black and/or male?

The families almost always say the guy was innocent. That doesn't prove much.

And the cops always say the guy was guilty.

 

[ksen]

The families almost always say the guy was innocent. That doesn't prove much.

plus they're black and thus notoriously unreliable, amirite?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

On the first page of this thead: http://www.sltrib.com/news/1758399-155/hunt-sword-schauerhamer-affidavit-officers-darrien

Link takes me to a headline and a pic but not story. Maybe it's my browser. I'll try reading it later in a different browser.

Loads for me.

 

[Toni]

My point. From the article in the OP:



So, smiling at police officers and then asking police officers for a ride is attacking police officers?

Or only if you are black and/or male?

The families almost always say the guy was innocent. That doesn't prove much.

The family isn't who took the photos and it isn't the family who says his statement to the police did not say that the guy was attacking the police.

Police accounts don't show justification for shooting him in the back, don't erase the ME's report of no drugs or alcohol and don't change a display replica with a rounded edge into a deadly sword. In fact, Hunt could NOT have harmed anyone with the 'sword' he had any more than John Crawford could have harmed anyone with the unloaded BB gun. However police officers have proven that they are quite deadly with their loaded weapons.

- - - Updated - - -

My point. From the article in the OP:



So, smiling at police officers and then asking police officers for a ride is attacking police officers?

Or only if you are black and/or male?

The families almost always say the guy was innocent. That doesn't prove much.

The family isn't who took the photos and it isn't the family who says his statement to the police did not say that the guy was attacking the police.

Police accounts don't show justification for shooting him in the back, don't erase the ME's report of no drugs or alcohol and don't change a display replica with a rounded edge into a deadly sword. In fact, Hunt could NOT have harmed anyone with the 'sword' he had any more than John Crawford could have harmed anyone with the unloaded BB gun. However police officers have proven that they are quite deadly with their loaded weapons.

 

[doubtingt]

This absurd post requires the assumption that it would not occur to most people that walking around modern American carrying a sword would not attract the attention of the police.

In fact, even the notion that he was merely "joking" requires that he understand that carrying a sword would attract the police. The joke would never occur to him, and it wouldn't make sense to anyone unless he understood that. So, both the joke and intent explanations equally assume that he understood (as 99.9% of people would) that carrying a sword around attract the attention of the cops. Your remark about it being "legal to carry a sword" shows no interest in honest thought about this. Is it illegal in some states to wear a ski mask and carry a gun outside, even into a local bank. By your "logic", we have no reason to believe that a person doing that would ever think it might be interpreted as a threat and might scare people at the bank and evoke a police response.
In sum, few human utterances have been more objectively wrong than your post. We have every reason, supported by every relevant fact, his own post, and every relevant established theory of human cognition, to believe that his actions would attract police attention and that he (like nearly every person in his society) knew that it would. You quite seriously would need to look to the most extremist forms of creationism to find claims more objectively false and refuted by fact and science then what you posted here (or maybe just many of your other posts).

Just to note here that your hyperbolic and dramatic tone addressing Mumbles' remarks was totally unnecessary. One may disagree with another poster's communicated thoughts without indulging in such tirade.

Everything I said I believe to be a reasonable assessment of his comment. The issue of the legality of carrying a sword and the notion that he had no reason to suspect it might garner any interest at all by the police are as absurd and demonstrably false as the most disingenuous creationist arguments out there.
The extremity of my word is not "drama" or an emotional "tirade", but accurately convey the extreme unreasonableness of Mumbles claims.

Further, Mumbles was specifically challenging the repeated claim in this thread of "suicide by cops". The claim of "suicide by cops" implies the intention to consciously plan and create a situation with cops where the outcome can only be : being fatally shot.

Mumbles responded to an interaction between myself and Keith regarding the probability of a joke-shot coincidence, referencing a "hole in his theory", which I reasonably interpreted as my "theory". Further, what his rhetorical aims were have no bearing on the reasonableness of the specific claims he made in support of those aims. He claim logically assumes that we have no reason to think that it would occur to a person in 2014 USA that carrying a large sword down the street might attract the attention of the cops, and that somehow the act being legal means that it should not have. These claims are absurd and contradicted by what is known about human cognition, plus directly refuted by the guys own post which would make no sense as a joke or any reason unless he did expect the sword to attract police attention and yet did it anyway.

There is no evidence that he was planning to have his life terminated by cops while intentionally creating a situation where the outcome could only be, fatally shot.

His post is clear evidence that he was very keenly aware that his actions would attract police attention and make them see him as a threat, and yet he not only did it anyway but when his own scenario that he imagined just hours before came true and thus could not have been at all surprised about, he did not respond like any sane person wanting to show they are not a threat would (i.e., immediately drop the sword). What the pic of him oddly smiling while his just imagined scenario of his own death began to unfold shows is that the cops did not roll up on him and immediately aggress. They are in a rather relaxed stance and don't even have their hands on their holsters as they typically would when they perceive an armed threat. So it is clear evidence that something happened beside him merely being black with a sword when the arrived that changed the nature of the interaction. If "shot just because he was black with a sword" were a viable explanation, then he'd be dead in that picture rather than conversing with the cops, because he's already black and holding a sword at that point.

He might not have wanted to die. He might of just wanted to amuse himself by seeing if he could get the cops riled up or maybe get 15 minutes of fame for getting arrested with a toy sword. But the evidence to date, which includes his mental illness, his post, and the statistical probability of coincidence strongly favors the idea that he went out and deliberately tried to provoke a confrontation with the cops, and that the cops acted calmly and not aggressively at first (the pic), but then something happened and the cops shot him.

 

[Toni]

Okay. Show that they did this. Show that it's illegal for him to have had a sword, or to swing it at nothing.

Good luck!

It is illegal to have possession of a blade, longer than 10 inches, in public, in many states. You can own a sword, and transport it, but you cannot unshealth it and "brandish it". That is illegal. You cannot swing anyhting (not even a rubber chicken) in the general direction of a police officer, without it being considered an assult or attempted assault on a police officer. If a police officer has reasonable cause to determine that you are a threat to himself or another person, then it is legal for him to take measures necessary to protect themselves and / or bystanders. If a katana has a sharp edge, you could kill a person with it in a second. He refused to drop it. He charged. He deserved to die.

"Show" that it is illegal what he did? Don't be stupid. We don't take kindly to stupid 'round these parts.

Not in Utah:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife2.pdf

"Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or
HB 271 was signed by Governor and Utah now has serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or preemption for knife laws. No local authority thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon: (i) the character of the instrument, object, can have laws on knives more restrictive than or thing; (ii) the character of the wound produced, if any; (iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was state law. New law goes into effect about 7/1/11 used; and (iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.

By this definition, Hunt was not carrying any weapon at all. His had a rounded edge, incapable of cutting or being used as a sword or knife.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Police accounts don't show justification for shooting him in the back, don't erase the ME's report of no drugs or alcohol and don't change a display replica with a rounded edge into a deadly sword. In fact, Hunt could NOT have harmed anyone with the 'sword' he had any more than John Crawford could have harmed anyone with the unloaded BB gun. However police officers have proven that they are quite deadly with their loaded weapons.

The guy attacked a cop. He then ran towards others--the cop is going to shoot to defend those others.

And it doesn't matter if the weapon was actually real so long as it was real enough to fool the cop.

Self defense is not based on the actual facts, but rather what the person in the situation was aware of. Thus realistic simulated weapons are considered the same thing as real weapons. Unloaded weapons are considered the same as loaded weapons unless the person they are aimed at can tell they are unloaded.

 

[laughing dog]

And it doesn't matter if the weapon was actually real so long as it was real enough to fool the cop.

Yes it does matter that the weapon was not real. In this case, the trained police officer should wait until he or she is sure. And if the police officer is wrong, the he or she should be held accountable. For some reason, you seem unable to comprehend that yet another person (yes, black men are people) is dead. To call this "suicide by cop" is, IMO, not just disrespectful to the victim, but is a sociopathic handwaving dismissal of a serious problem.

Self defense is not based on the actual facts, but rather what the person in the situation was aware of.

This is hallucinatory. Self defense requires an actual threat or a realistic perception of a threat.

 

[Jarhyn]

He had a sword. A cop will shoot to protect bystanders, not just himself.

And what about that social media post?? That's pretty hard to be anything but an intent to commit suicide by cop.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe suicide by cop was his original idea, then he had a change of heart, panicked, and ran. By then he had already established himself as a person who swings a katana at police officers, unfortunately.

A reasonable hypothesis.

you know damn well I'll give most cops the benefit of the doubt, but seriously, the kid was fucking cosplaying. The Facebook message sounds to me like an ironic joke, as in 'lol, I'm black and cosplaying with a sword, with my luck some trigger happy cop will shoot me'. Given that interpretation of the message, and it's likely accuracy as that I have seen messages like this before (from my own husband no less), it seems extremely unlikely that he would antagonize a cop. I can accept a cop punching someone who he thought was attacking a protester. I can accept a guy getting shot carrying around an assault-rifle-shaped-object immediately following a week of active shooter training. I cannot accept someone being shot carrying around a sword, fake or not, while wearing an Afro-samurai costume, especially AFTER having a conversation with the cops. These guys need to lose their badges and be put on trial for murder and false testimony, falsifying a police report, and then kept away from anything resembling a badge or gun until they can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are capable of being able to recognize their mistake, explain why it was wrong, and display that they lack the desire to do such wrong things.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes it does matter that the weapon was not real. In this case, the trained police officer should wait until he or she is sure. And if the police officer is wrong, the he or she should be held accountable. For some reason, you seem unable to comprehend that yet another person (yes, black men are people) is dead. To call this "suicide by cop" is, IMO, not just disrespectful to the victim, but is a sociopathic handwaving dismissal of a serious problem.

Self defense is not based on the actual facts, but rather what the person in the situation was aware of.

This is hallucinatory. Self defense requires an actual threat or a realistic perception of a threat.

Foot, meet bullet.

"or a realistic perception of a threat"--which is exactly what I'm saying!

 

[ApostateAbe]

Yeah, if someone posts on Facebook, "I have a sword and I’m going to get shot," and that same day he gets shot by the police while holding a sword, then there is very likely a connection. It is NOT something that resembles what black men say every day. I find that claim to be a very odd perception of the culture of black men.

 

[Malintent]

It is illegal to have possession of a blade, longer than 10 inches, in public, in many states. You can own a sword, and transport it, but you cannot unshealth it and "brandish it". That is illegal. You cannot swing anyhting (not even a rubber chicken) in the general direction of a police officer, without it being considered an assult or attempted assault on a police officer. If a police officer has reasonable cause to determine that you are a threat to himself or another person, then it is legal for him to take measures necessary to protect themselves and / or bystanders. If a katana has a sharp edge, you could kill a person with it in a second. He refused to drop it. He charged. He deserved to die.

"Show" that it is illegal what he did? Don't be stupid. We don't take kindly to stupid 'round these parts.

Not in Utah:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/USKnife2.pdf

"Dangerous weapon" means any item that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or
HB 271 was signed by Governor and Utah now has serious bodily injury. The following factors shall be used in determining whether a knife, or any other item, object, or preemption for knife laws. No local authority thing not commonly known as a dangerous weapon is a dangerous weapon: (i) the character of the instrument, object, can have laws on knives more restrictive than or thing; (ii) the character of the wound produced, if any; (iii) the manner in which the instrument, object, or thing was state law. New law goes into effect about 7/1/11 used; and (iv) the other lawful purposes for which the instrument, object, or thing may be used.

By this definition, Hunt was not carrying any weapon at all. His had a rounded edge, incapable of cutting or being used as a sword or knife.

oh.. like a toy gun with it's red stopper removed, right? How, prey tell, would you expect the cop to know how sharp the sword is? wait to see if it can cut through bone?

 

[ksen]

Yeah, if someone posts on Facebook, "I have a sword and I’m going to get shot," and that same day he gets shot by the police while holding a sword, then there is very likely a connection. It is NOT something that resembles what black men say every day. I find that claim to be a very odd perception of the culture of black men.

Yeah, you hardly ever see stories about cops shooting black guys for horrible reasons.

 

[Malintent]

I heard a horrible story once... therefore god.

 

[ApostateAbe]

Yeah, if someone posts on Facebook, "I have a sword and I’m going to get shot," and that same day he gets shot by the police while holding a sword, then there is very likely a connection. It is NOT something that resembles what black men say every day. I find that claim to be a very odd perception of the culture of black men.

Yeah, you hardly ever see stories about cops shooting black guys for horrible reasons.

No, I see them frequently. Every time it happens in the western world, it saturates the news. I think we need to be realistic about these things. If he said he has a sword and was going to get shot, and that same day he gets shot while holding his sword, then it is very likely that he intended it that way. If peaceful black men really do generally talk like that every day, then OK, but I claim they don't. Put the pieces together where they fit, not where they don't fit.