ACLU's staggering dishonesty on trans girls in sports

[Metaphor]

Hey, anything that ultimately leads us to communism is a good thing.

My parents fled communism in Europe and even the communist countries separated males and females in sport.

Oh, then I must be even more evil than I realised, then! Muahahaha.

Well, you are certainly at least delusional if you think communism does not result in widespread misery and human suffering everywhere it has been attempted to be implemented.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Oh, then I must be even more evil than I realised, then! Muahahaha.

Well, you are certainly at least delusional if you think communism does not result in widespread misery and human suffering everywhere it has been attempted to be implemented.

Human suffering, yes! But not transhuman or trans-species suffering! Such a thing has never been implemented before.

 

[repoman]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It would be a lot easier to make a 100% accurate gender change than to make a trans-cheetah.

For the most part I support trans rights but gender-segregated sports are an exception--the change isn't 100% and makes it an unfair competition.

Changing sex--actually changing sex--might be possible in the far future, though I confess I don't know exactly what it would entail. Almost every cell in my body (except my sperm and blood) is XY. How could that become XX? Where would the second lot of information come from?

And how on earth would XX become XY?

Remember that the ACLU and other trans activists do not want to restrict males in girls sports to 'transitioned' males. The ACLU, and Biden's executive order, makes it explicit that self identification alone is enough.

XY to XX isn't going to be an issue, you don't really need two copies to function--turn off the Y and they would be genetically female. XX to XY would require inserting a Y chromosome--something we can't do yet.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It would be a lot easier to make a 100% accurate gender change than to make a trans-cheetah.

For the most part I support trans rights but gender-segregated sports are an exception--the change isn't 100% and makes it an unfair competition.

In fact, most liberals will tend to agree with that assessment with a particular exception: when someone has not actually gone through any developmentally meaningful period of testosterone exposure.

The issue is, the ones who claim this will hurt sports are the same ones who scream BLOODY MURDER when we suggest that maybe people not be forced to undergo the "wrong" puberty in the first place, and thus not be so fucked out of participating in sports with their hormonally matched peers.

Disagree--I am not opposed to trans people in general. The earlier we can fix it (assuming we can be sure that's the right thing to do) the better. Outside sports and dating I think it's nobody's business if your bits don't match your gender.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Changing sex--actually changing sex--might be possible in the far future, though I confess I don't know exactly what it would entail. Almost every cell in my body (except my sperm and blood) is XY. How could that become XX? Where would the second lot of information come from?

That is not how it would work. There are fish, for example, that change from female to male or from male to female, without any chromosome changes. In humans, chromosomes determine sex only in the sense that they, under normal circumstances, cause the development of female or male embryos. But it does not determine it in a conceptual sense, or as a matter of metaphysical necessity. Further, in reality, that might malfunction, and if so, at least as far as I know embryonic development might default to female, so there might be a female that is XY. And I mean a female, with a vagina, ovaries, a uterus, breasts, all real, though I do not know whether she would be fertile. But she would be classified properly as a female in the usual sense of the words, and of course a woman, even if XY. She would have normal female levels of hormones, etc., look female even when examined (except the chromosomes), have a female mind, and so on.

See, for example:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16934-girl-with-y-chromosome-sheds-light-on-maleness/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000292970900113X

https://www.cell.com/ajhg/pdf/S0002-9297(09)00113-X.pdf

That was a mutation in the Y chromosome, but the idea would be to deactivate it. Now how do you do that to an adult? I have no idea, and I do not know whether it's even nomologically possible. But if it is, I suspect this would be kind of like the fish: organs change more or less gradually, including the brain (so, behavior too), until you get an XY female, with the Y inactive.

Whether that would make you a woman is harder to say, given that part of your mind resulted from decades of experiencing the world having a penis, not a vagina, and this goes to truth conditions for the word "woman". But maybe if your memory is erased and you experience decades with a vagina too (suppose people live for centuries or more), that probably would do it.

I'm pretty skeptical that this is doable, but it is definitely not beyond conceptual possibility (i.e., there is no contradiction in saying eventually some men will become women, even counting the meaning of the words).

And how on earth would XX become XY?

Not the way to do it, but still, turning a woman into a man seems to present different challenges. No idea how that one would go, without the Y chromosome.

 

[repoman]

This girl needs to go to jail for a hate crime.

 

[Jarhyn]

It would be a lot easier to make a 100% accurate gender change than to make a trans-cheetah.

For the most part I support trans rights but gender-segregated sports are an exception--the change isn't 100% and makes it an unfair competition.

In fact, most liberals will tend to agree with that assessment with a particular exception: when someone has not actually gone through any developmentally meaningful period of testosterone exposure.

The issue is, the ones who claim this will hurt sports are the same ones who scream BLOODY MURDER when we suggest that maybe people not be forced to undergo the "wrong" puberty in the first place, and thus not be so fucked out of participating in sports with their hormonally matched peers.

Disagree--I am not opposed to trans people in general. The earlier we can fix it (assuming we can be sure that's the right thing to do) the better. Outside sports and dating I think it's nobody's business if your bits don't match your gender.

If someone is not meaningfully exposed, what argument do you have to stand in their way?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Disagree--I am not opposed to trans people in general. The earlier we can fix it (assuming we can be sure that's the right thing to do) the better. Outside sports and dating I think it's nobody's business if your bits don't match your gender.

If someone is not meaningfully exposed, what argument do you have to stand in their way?

The problem is past exposure to testosterone changes future athletic performance. The effects of testosterone are the main reason we have gender-segregated sports in the first place! It's not about your anatomy.

 

[Jarhyn]

Disagree--I am not opposed to trans people in general. The earlier we can fix it (assuming we can be sure that's the right thing to do) the better. Outside sports and dating I think it's nobody's business if your bits don't match your gender.

If someone is not meaningfully exposed, what argument do you have to stand in their way?

The problem is past exposure to testosterone changes future athletic performance. The effects of testosterone are the main reason we have gender-segregated sports in the first place! It's not about your anatomy.

Let me repeat: if someone is not meaningfully exposed...

You really like beating up on those straw men, don't you?

Let's start with an easy and apparent case: partial DSD reassignment to female at birth. Should they be accepted in "women's" sports?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem is past exposure to testosterone changes future athletic performance. The effects of testosterone are the main reason we have gender-segregated sports in the first place! It's not about your anatomy.

Let me repeat: if someone is not meaningfully exposed...

You really like beating up on those straw men, don't you?

Let's start with an easy and apparent case: partial DSD reassignment to female at birth. Should they be accepted in "women's" sports?

Compete as the gender you were at puberty is fine with me.

 

[Jarhyn]

The problem is past exposure to testosterone changes future athletic performance. The effects of testosterone are the main reason we have gender-segregated sports in the first place! It's not about your anatomy.

Let me repeat: if someone is not meaningfully exposed...

You really like beating up on those straw men, don't you?

Let's start with an easy and apparent case: partial DSD reassignment to female at birth. Should they be accepted in "women's" sports?

Compete as the gender you were at puberty is fine with me.

Then we have no conflict whatsoever. Though I would hazard to say not gender but "hormonal situation". I would imagine given the billions of people and the variances between them, there are going to be other cases as well, such as, for instance, people who identify as male, present as male, yet who display complete testosterone resistance.

I would enjoin you in the future to lead with this position, same as I would enjoin you to lead with "don't let evaluators access any (bad proxy), for (insert real quality here)" when discussing THOSE topics.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Compete as the gender you were at puberty is fine with me.

Then we have no conflict whatsoever. Though I would hazard to say not gender but "hormonal situation". I would imagine given the billions of people and the variances between them, there are going to be other cases as well, such as, for instance, people who identify as male, present as male, yet who display complete testosterone resistance.

I would enjoin you in the future to lead with this position, same as I would enjoin you to lead with "don't let evaluators access any (bad proxy), for (insert real quality here)" when discussing THOSE topics.

Most trans people went through puberty in the "wrong" gender.

 

[Jarhyn]

Compete as the gender you were at puberty is fine with me.

Then we have no conflict whatsoever. Though I would hazard to say not gender but "hormonal situation". I would imagine given the billions of people and the variances between them, there are going to be other cases as well, such as, for instance, people who identify as male, present as male, yet who display complete testosterone resistance.

I would enjoin you in the future to lead with this position, same as I would enjoin you to lead with "don't let evaluators access any (bad proxy), for (insert real quality here)" when discussing THOSE topics.

Most trans people went through puberty in the "wrong" gender.

They did. And while I could quibble about your terminology, here, it's not that important at this point.

It just really sucks for them. It's one of the reasons I'm such a huge proponent of allowing trans kids access to blockers. The problem is so much worse for athletes and it's already bad enough for non-atheletes.

It's really the only available compromise, the only reasonable compromise, given the natural evil of only getting one shot at getting it right with respect to preventing unfair advantages while not forcing someone into a population that still has unfair advantages over them.

And you have known me long enough to be one of the most aggressive trans advocates here on the forums.