Adam Toledo video released

[Derec]

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

How would that apply in this case? Adam had a gun - which is something he wasn't supposed to have - in his hand 832 ms before the officer fired.
What was the officer doing 832 ms earlier that caused Adam to react poorly?
Note, it takes a lot longer to run half a football field than that. He chose to do that. He could have dropped the gun as soon as he saw the cop pull up. Or at any time during his 50m dash. He played chicken and lost.

Now think how the officer feels. He killed a 13 year old. He must feel truly horrible about that no matter the circumstances, no matter that - as far as I can see - he did nothing wrong.

 

[Derec]

Wow. Yes, let’s shoot dead any 13 year old who is doing stupid dangerous or illegal stuff when they are 13.

Obviously, our goal should not be to kill 13 year olds (or anybody else) for doing stupidly dangerous shit. But sometimes that is the outcome. It's the whole idea behind "Darwin Awards". There are people who did the same things who lived to tell the tale - but some have not. Running from police with a gun that was used minutes before to shoot at cars is dangerously stupid. It will not always lead to death, or even to being shot, but you run a high risk of death if you do it.

Let’s invent a time machine and go back in time and start shooting to death all the 13 year olds doing stupid dangerous illegal thingsfrim 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. I suspect there wouldn’t be a single one of us left alive to post here.

There are gradations of stupid, dangerous and illegal. This kid was turning things up to 11, which obviously increased his risk.

And again, it's a matter of risk. Nobody is saying to give teenagers a death penalty for doing stupid, dangerous and illegal things. But doing such things increases your risk of bad outcomes.

 

[Derec]

I think it is odd. Whenever a black teen gets killed by the cops (or Zimmerman-like people) they show pictures of the victims from five or six years prior to his death. It is totally different with white serial killers, because they usually show pictures of them from booking. Odd that.

Odd indeed. Also, Zimmermann was called white, but Toledo is called brown, even though they are about the same shade. Funny that.
Kind of how the Syrian Colorado shooter is called "white" but Palestinian Rashida Tlaib is "brown". Funny.

 

[Derec]

This is what happened two days ago in the same neighborhood, Little Village. Same thing as what Adam Toledo and Ruben Roman were doing, i.e. shooting at a car. Except in this case a 17 year old girl is dead.
I would not be surprised in the perps in this case turn out to be Latin Kings bangers as well.

17-year-old girl shot to death Thursday in Little Village

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...0210418-wujv6zwparfdtffqpfguczgcau-story.html

A 7-year-old girl died Sunday after she was shot inside a vehicle in a drive-thru lane at a McDonald’s restaurant on the city’s West Side, according to Chicago police.

I think this is that McDonalds:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.866...jrfE_Sx_JkdxsPmkJqmA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en



Same neighborhood

Indeed. These gangs are a scourge.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Wow. Yes, let’s shoot dead any 13 year old who is doing stupid dangerous or illegal stuff when they are 13. Let’s invent a time machine and go back in time and start shooting to death all the 13 year olds doing stupid dangerous illegal thingsfrim 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. I suspect there wouldn’t be a single one of us left alive to post here.

Free range kid here.
Do you mean like shoplifting and smoking cigarettes? He was out at 0230 with a 21 year old shooting at cars. As a teen, I knew of no one, 13 or any teen age who would do anything on par with this. I had never even heard wild rumors in high school of anyone who would do such a thing.
I suspect most all of us would still be alive.

 

[Derec]

But when he shot him, Adam Toledo was unarmed. Which strongly suggests that the officer acted in haste or recklessly.

Not true. It just means that Adam hesitated to throw the gun until the cop already made a decision to fire.

One might interpret this as "The little thug was going to die anyway, so what's the beef?" But you would never make such a sociopathic argument, so what is your point?

Or one could interpret it as "we need to go after adult gang members who recruit these kids". Ruben Roman should have been charged with felony murder. Instead, a non-profit put up bail money for that pos.
Ruben Roman, Man Who Was With Adam Toledo When He Was Shot By Police, Released After Posting Bond For Felony Gun Charges

 

[Derec]

He was a 13 year old kid, meaning he was more child than adult.

I agree. But I think this is the first time I have seen you acknowledge that teenagers have some adult character to them.
In other discussions you like to pretend that everybody is 100% child even if they are 17 years 364 days and 23 hours old.

He was a lonely child, isolated at school, in a classroom with the same 6 other kids with learning disabilities, far worse than his so he wasn't really able to develop socially as he would have if he had been surrounded by kids who were at his ability level or slightly above. Did he 'know what he was doing?' I doubt very much that he realized what danger he was in or was attached to what he was doing. Because he was 13 years old for one thing, and had some intellectual disabilities for another. He was trying to find a place to fit in.

And he was recruited by a murderous gang. Instead of blaming the officer who was reacting to a rapidly evolving situation, why not blame Latin Kings and Ruben Roman? I do not think you have said anything about him yet.

He panicked and did his best to comply with a screaming adult. Who shot him for it, then lied about what happened, lied that he was armed when he was shot, hid the evidence and video for days.

Adam was armed for all intents and purposes, taking into account finite reaction times.

Adam Toledo was a 13 year old child.
The officer who killed him is an adult, trained professional.

The officer was still a human being, not RoboCop.

Why are we willing to allow that police officers can be frightened in a situation but children cannot?

Who says they can't be frightened? But the officer was doing his job, while Adam was out there at 2:30am committing violent felonies. So the situation is not exactly symertical.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Even if we shut the tap off entirely there's nothing we can do about an awful lot of the guns out there. There's not that many used in crime to use them up.

In a United States where possession of small arms is made illegal tomorrow, your contention is few if anyone would turn in their firearms? My contention is if your average Joe with family, mortgage, yada, yada, yada, knew keeping a gun in the house could get him a mandatory minimum of three years in prison and all that goes with it, lose his job, house, yada, yada, yada, we'd easily get the majority of firearms in this country turned in for destruction. It would take three to five years to clean up the ones held by criminals. I mean, sooner or later they are going to try and use it in the commission of a crime, right?

 

[Derec]

There is NOTHING that makes me think this boy would still be alive. He complied with police instructions. He's dead.

He complied too late and in a very wrong fashion. He could have dropped the gun before he took off running. Then he'd be alive for sure. He was still holding the gun - and was bringing it up! - as he was turning around toward the officer.

Adam Toledo was 13 years old. Sean Hannity referred to him as a 13 year old Man.
Kyle Rittenhouse was 17 years old. Sean Hannity referred to him as a 17 year old boy.

You don't really have a leg to stand on this as you referred to the 20 year old adult man Daunte Wright as a child.

Adam Toledo put his hands up and dropped his weapon. He killed nobody. He was killed by police.

He did not drop it, he tossed it behind the fence. He also still had his weapon in his hands as he was turning around. And he was bringing that weapon up. To toss it, we now know, but he could have as easily have been bringing it up to fire. The officer was in no position to take that gamble.

Kyle Rittenhouse had an AR-15 and had killed two people. He wasn't even asked to comply. He was taken into custody.

Rittenhouse was attacked by three Antifa thugs with criminal records, one of them (Rosenbaum) for felony child molestation. I believe he acted in self-defense even if it was stupid and probably illegal for him to carry that gun to defend against rioters and looters.
He also surrendered to police and did not lead them on a 50m chase in a dark alley.
Also, about the AR15. It is a semiautomatic firearm, just like the gun Adam Toledo was carrying. Adam's gun was more dangerous in close quarter gunfight as it is more maneuverable.
Note that vast majority of gun crimes are committed with handguns and not long guns. And even fewer with "scary" AR15s and such.

Guns are a big problem in the US, but this nonsense about "assault weapons" is really missing the mark by parsecs.

He fled the state where he killed two individuals. Police and public officials contributed to his defense fund.

Ah, and if AOC and Maxine Waters donate to Adam Toledo's gofundme, is that ok?
NYC #BLM terrorists Colinford Mattis and Urooj Rahman amassed multiple six figures in donations. Are you sure no public officials donated to them?
How is it ok for those two to have fundraisers but not ok for Rittenhouse?

Adam Toledo was Latino.
Kyle Rittenhouse is white.

And that makes Adam a poor victim and Kyle obviously guilty, right?
Also, isn't Adam about the same hue as George Zimmermann, who was called white by the media?

 

[none]

How does he do that?


It is pretty trivial to raise your hands vertically. Sure, your elbows move horizontally, but that's not going to impart any horizontal impulse to an object in your hands. And that's the issue here. Adam did not just drop the gun, he threw it behind the fence, most likely deliberately. Roman probably told him to ditch it if he can when he gave him the gun, and he tried to do just that.
What Adam should have done is dropped the gun before he moved his hands.

Still no comment on how the officer should have predicted and expected the boy's movements (as captured on camera for us all to see) based on his instruction to "Show me your fuckin' hands"?

I don't know. It was a fucked up situation that turned on what happened within 832 ms. Adam could have dropped the gun before he took of running. He could have dropped, not thrown, the gun when he stopped running.

he disarmed and complied with the order in less than ~832 milliseconds.

By the way, a somewhat similar situation happened in DC last year. One Deon Kay, 18. He also threw the gun away and the cop interpreted the motion as raising the gun to fire. He threw it ~90 ft too. Major difference is that in the Adam Toledo case visibility was much poorer because it was at night.

visibility is "the real issue"?

Bullshit - you don't what he was trying to do.

We cannot read minds but we can draw reasonable inferences from his behavior.

hat does not mean you know what he meant to do. We are talking about a 13 year old boy in a critical and tense situation with little time to react in a cold rational manner. You know - the very situation you use to defend the actions of the trained and experienced adult who killed the unarmed child.

He ran for half a football field. He could have easily dropped the gun when he saw the cops. Or at any time during his 50m dash. Instead he waited to throw the gun while he was turning around. Stupid mistake, and one that cost him his life.

when did the officer see the gun?

 

[barbos]

he disarmed and complied with the order in less than ~832 milliseconds.

50 yards in 0.832 seconds, this must be a new record or something.

 

[none]

he disarmed and complied with the order in less than ~832 milliseconds.

50 yards in 0.832 seconds, this must be a new record or something.

is this an issue of compliance with state law or federal law?

 

[barbos]

he disarmed and complied with the order in less than ~832 milliseconds.

50 yards in 0.832 seconds, this must be a new record or something.

is this an issue of compliance with state law or federal law?

I don't know federal/state speed limits for running.

 

[laughing dog]

But when he shot him, Adam Toledo was unarmed. Which strongly suggests that the officer acted in haste or recklessly.

Not true. It just means that Adam hesitated to throw the gun until the cop already made a decision to fire.

Adam Toledo was unarmed when he was shot. Why you feel the need to obfuscate that indisputable fact is truly fascinating.

Or one could interpret it as "we need to go after adult gang members who recruit these kids". ..

One could if that had been part of the discussion. Since it wasn't, you need to try again.

 

[repoman]

The cop in hindsight should have made the kid SLOWLY put his hands out to his side and slowly drop his gun.

After his hand were provably empty then tell him to slowly raise them over his head.


Or what would you, laughing dog, do as a cop with an armed suspect with a gun in the exact same spatial postions BEFORE the officer screamed at him "show me your fucking hands!!!" ?

Play it out, I am curious.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I'm pretty sure this makes it clear what happened. This is a reaction time issue:

He dropped the gun and raised his hands--but too late. The cop had already made the shoot decision, .8 seconds is not enough time to present new information (the empty hands) to change his mind. Fuck around with a gun with the cops, expect to be shot.

Seems to me I remember a slightly older kid at a protest who "fucked around with a gun," shot 3 people, and he was able to waltz right by the police, gun in hand, and was politely arrested later.

I know right?

The differences are stark. Black and white, you might say.

 

[Worldtraveller]

Apparently older boy handed him a gun so he can't be caught with it. I think older boy should be prosecuted with murder or something. There should be harsh punishment for involving 13 year olds with crime.

I thought I read that Toledo had gunshot residue on his hand. So, did he also fire the gun?

Agree on harsh punishment for the adult thug whose actions led to Toledo's death.

If you mean the cop, then I agree.

 

[Worldtraveller]

You put forward unattainable requirements for the police. They are not robots with perfect vision and unlimited CPU speed.
13 year old who just fired at random car at 2AM tried to evade the police and get rid of the gun. I say give life sentence to 21 year old and be done with it.

Can you name the unattainable requirement you divined from my post? I dare you.

You want to simplify the whole situation to one sentence comprised of 22 words. It's easier to think about it that way, but it's lazy, and nuance is lost. This kind of laziness is also what guarantees that tragic outcomes like this will continue.

I've already pointed it out directly and others have indirectly: reaction time. .8 seconds is not enough time to recall a shoot decision. The gun was pitched rather than brought to bear but in such a situation the human mind simply can't change tracks fast enough.

This indicates very poor decision making...on the part of the police officer.

The gung ho hollywood attitude of cops is disgusting and dangerous. This is why police departments need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Don't take it from me, take if from some one whose job was to train police forces:
You tube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmjB7TUroyE

 

[Worldtraveller]

This is so important. Police have this stupid Hollywood-Drill-Sargeant habit of SHOUT-SHOUT-SHOUT-SCREAM and they give conflicting instructions and they work themselves all into a froth that they loose track of their ability to gauge time and they expect humans to respond thoughtfully while the police are jacking up the atmosphee of fear and anxiety.

It’s stupid. It just insanely stupid. As any social worker or nurse, anyone who deals with people and not just charactatures, whether ramping up the anxiety and expecting calm response is a professional response. And they will tell you, “are you an idiot? Of course not! You are going to get the opposite of solutions, you are creating more problems.”

Yet the police still think they’re in a fucking Hollywood Basic Training scene and might makes right so whoever has the loudest screech is the most powerful.

It can cause a problem when multiple officers are doing it but the reason they do it is simple: It works. If they were nice and friendly like you want they would be having to shoot more often.

Bullshit. We have hundreds of thousands of incidents from all over the world that indicates you're wrong (again).

Unless by 'works', you mean tends to escalate the situation so cops get to kill someone.

 

[Gospel]

Is there any Data making a comparison to how many times Police have used deadly force VS how many times deadly force was used against the police? I'm thinking how proactive officers are at protecting themselves then said data (if it exists) should show an overwhelming amount of force being used against the police.