Adam Toledo video released

[none]

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

How would that apply in this case? Adam had a gun - which is something he wasn't supposed to have - in his hand 832 ms before the officer fired.
What was the officer doing 832 ms earlier that caused Adam to react poorly?
Note, it takes a lot longer to run half a football field than that. He chose to do that. He could have dropped the gun as soon as he saw the cop pull up. Or at any time during his 50m dash. He played chicken and lost.

Now think how the officer feels. He killed a 13 year old. He must feel truly horrible about that no matter the circumstances, no matter that - as far as I can see - he did nothing wrong.

Disagree--I don't believe he was playing chicken. He knew he was doing something illegal, he tried to flee. When it became obvious that wasn't working he tried to ditch the gun. He didn't realize how deadly the rules of the game were, that the cop was going to react to the quick movement of the gun. He didn't realize the cop would be focusing on the gun and see the motion.

He is a victim in all this, but his killer is the gang.

the cop was focusing on the gun?

 

[Swammerdami]

Like most of us, I am eager to attack cops guilty of depraved-heart murder, like the asshole cops who needlessly murdered Tamir Rice in broad daylight.

But I do NOT understand the desire to condemn the cop who shot Adam Toledo. Unlike many of these incidents, the cop had strong reason to think he was dealing with a violent criminal. Toledo resisted arrest. The cop's adrenalin was flowing in overdrive. Toledo had a gun in his hand.

Parsing the hard-to-see video, millisecond by millisecond is beside the point. The cop was reacting in real-time; he didn't have the luxury of watching the video in slow-motion from an armchair. This was a "good shooting." Condemning this "good" shooting just plays into the hands of haters who think liberals take the side of criminals over police.

With better training, might the shooting have been avoided? Maybe. Should the cop have bravely run the risk of suffering a gunshot injury by delaying his trigger pull? I'm glad I don't have his job.


There are too many F***ing guns in this crazy country. Blacks shouldn't have guns, but neither should whites. Thirteen-year olds should definitely not have guns. In some countries, most cops do not carry guns.

Adam Toledo's death will serve a worthy cause if it conveys a message to other teenagers: Do not "play" with guns.

 

[Toni]

Like most of us, I am eager to attack cops guilty of depraved-heart murder, like the asshole cops who needlessly murdered Tamir Rice in broad daylight.

But I do NOT understand the desire to condemn the cop who shot Adam Toledo. Unlike many of these incidents, the cop had strong reason to think he was dealing with a violent criminal. Toledo resisted arrest. The cop's adrenalin was flowing in overdrive. Toledo had a gun in his hand.

Parsing the hard-to-see video, millisecond by millisecond is beside the point. The cop was reacting in real-time; he didn't have the luxury of watching the video in slow-motion from an armchair. This was a "good shooting." Condemning this "good" shooting just plays into the hands of haters who think liberals take the side of criminals over police.

With better training, might the shooting have been avoided? Maybe. Should the cop have bravely run the risk of suffering a gunshot injury by delaying his trigger pull? I'm glad I don't have his job.


There are too many F***ing guns in this crazy country. Blacks shouldn't have guns, but neither should whites. Thirteen-year olds should definitely not have guns. In some countries, most cops do not carry guns.

Adam Toledo's death will serve a worthy cause if it conveys a message to other teenagers: Do not "play" with guns.

Well, it won't convey that message to teens. The message it will convey is that cops are going to kill you no matter what you do.

Of course the police officer who killed Adam did not know his age, did not know that he had serious learning disabilities, that he was lonely and isolated and that is why he was out with someone who was so much older, and so eager for his approval.

A lot is made of the officer's reaction time but surely, Adam had the same issues with reaction time. He also had a lot of adrenaline flowing through his system, a lot of fear, a lot of panic. And he was 13 so he did not have an adult's ability to reason or predict outcomes, to gain self control. He did what the officer told him to do. The officer, as has been pointed out before, had already (consciously or not) made the decision to fire his weapon. It seems to me that we are expecting a 13 year old special ed student to have better control over himself and his actions than the adult, trained officer. We are willing to cut the officer breaks but not the 13 year old kid.

We MUST change how we do policing and we MUST change how we deal with guns in this country.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Like most of us, I am eager to attack cops guilty of depraved-heart murder, like the asshole cops who needlessly murdered Tamir Rice in broad daylight.

Rice wasn't killed by someone with a depraved heart. He was killed by a guy that had no business being a cop and recklessly put himself into a position of danger and then fired to save his own ass from a boy that (not a teen yet) could have had a weapon.

But I do NOT understand the desire to condemn the cop who shot Adam Toledo. Unlike many of these incidents, the cop had strong reason to think he was dealing with a violent criminal. Toledo resisted arrest. The cop's adrenalin was flowing in overdrive. Toledo had a gun in his hand.

The trouble is his orders. He tells the person to do something, that person starts doing it, and he shoots. Certainly, this case is not one of the likes of Tamir Rice. The teen here was wrong place, wrong time, doing the wrong thing. But it isn't the best idea to bark orders and then shoot someone who appears to be complying. *note, I haven't watched the video, I don't do snuff films, so I'm in the dark a bit about the details*

Adam Toledo's death will serve a worthy cause if it conveys a message to other teenagers: Do not "play" with guns.

Teens are steadfast in knowing how invincible they are. So no, they won't learn that lesson from this.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We MUST change how we do policing and we MUST change how we deal with guns in this country.

You mean white guy with gun = freedom and black man with gun = threat?

The trouble with this case is it appears like this teen was destined to die young. Isolated, troubled from the isolation and his mental health, and finding himself doing things maybe not because he wanted to, but because it provided him attention he was seeking. It is impossible to figure it all out, but any 13 year old that dies is a straight up tragedy. Some seem to get real hard over it though, 'thugs getting what they deserve'.

I think about my niece and some of the bad decisions she's made because of the shit she has had to wade through since she was old enough to notice. She is still just a teen, doesn't suffer from mental health problems, but suffers from so much trauma, and lacks the skills and maturity to know how to deal with it.

Some people want to paint these people as villains.

 

[laughing dog]

We MUST change how we do policing and we MUST change how we deal with guns in this country.

You mean white guy with gun = freedom and black man with gun = threat?

The trouble with this case is it appears like this teen was destined to die young. Isolated, troubled from the isolation and his mental health, and finding himself doing things maybe not because he wanted to, but because it provided him attention he was seeking. It is impossible to figure it all out, but any 13 year old that dies is a straight up tragedy. Some seem to get real hard over it though, 'thugs getting what they deserve'.

I think you agree that even if "thugs get what they deserve" is true, it doesn't mean they deserve to be killed by agents of the state while disarming themselves.

 

[LoAmmo]

Well, it won't convey that message to teens. The message it will convey is that cops are going to kill you no matter what you do.

I don't think that's fair. I think it's reasonable to assume that if Adam had stuck both hands high in the air (sans gun) the second the cop appeared, he'd be alive today. He wasn't killed "no matter what he did," he was killed primarily because of specifically what he did. There's lots of sidebar issues that contributed to that, but...he could have taken many different avenues that would have led to his arrest instead of his shooting death.

Of course the police officer who killed Adam did not know his age, did not know that he had serious learning disabilities, that he was lonely and isolated and that is why he was out with someone who was so much older, and so eager for his approval.

Would you have cops try to psycho-analyze (in about 832 ms) the mental health of every suspect who takes off running on them? Chasing an armed suspect, should they have to yell, "Stop! Police! Do you currently have or have you ever been treated for any serious learning disabilities? Do you feel lonely and isolated?"

A lot is made of the officer's reaction time but surely, Adam had the same issues with reaction time. He also had a lot of adrenaline flowing through his system, a lot of fear, a lot of panic.

I'd imagine so. It probably led him to make the horrible decision(s) he made. He didn't rationally work out a plan to not only run, but then suddenly wheel around, holding a gun (for ANY AMOUNT OF milliseconds), on a trained cop whose lather was up from the chase. It sucks, and I feel badly that he was killed, but he put himself of that path.

And he was 13 so he did not have an adult's ability to reason or predict outcomes, to gain self control.

He had an adult's ability to carry a gun...or thought he did, apparently. He made some big-boy decisions, and he paid a big-boy price. Don't lay that all at the feet of a cop who in your own words, didn't know Adam's age. MAYBE, if you're 13, and not mature enough to "reason, or predict outcomes, or gain self-control," one should simply stay a kid, and not play wanna-be gangbanger like you're in the big leagues. Again--don't get me wrong...I wish he had made better choices, while at the same time understanding the pressures that led hm not to.

If anything, I think the "message" kids would take away from this is less "the cops gonna kill you no matter WHAT you do" and more, "Don't ACT like you're some badass gangster unless you are prepared to live...and by inference, DIE like one." And a 13-year old, even HOLDING a gun, is acting like he's some street-tough badass, period. He's glamorizing that lifestyle, even if only periodically/briefly, instead of choosing to be a kid all the time.

He played with fire, he got burned. It's why we tell kids not to play with fire. I wish he'd listened. Not every single person who plays with fire gets burned. But some do.

He did what the officer told him to do.

I think that's misleading. A fully compliant suspect doesn't, for instance, take off down the alley. Again, if he instantly raises both (gun-free) hands high above his head, and maybe drops to his knees, he's alive today.

The officer, as has been pointed out before, had already (consciously or not) made the decision to fire his weapon.

I don't know that. I suspect you don't either. I would infer, that as he was running down the alley after Adam, it at least crossed his mind, "is this going to end peacefully or will I have to discharge my weapon?" I would infer that if he's been a cop any length of time, he's wondered that LOTS of times. I bet Highway Patrol officers wonder that every time they walk up to a car they've pulled over. I would.

It seems to me that we are expecting a 13 year old special ed student to have better control over himself and his actions than the adult, trained officer. We are willing to cut the officer breaks but not the 13 year old kid.

Not "better." Just "adequate." Adam's wasn't. For a lot of reasons, and, it sucks, but...if his self-control had been merely adequate, he'd be alive today. (In some form of custody, likely, but...alive.)

We MUST change how we do policing and we MUST change how we deal with guns in this country.

I do agree with you on both of those.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Even if we shut the tap off entirely there's nothing we can do about an awful lot of the guns out there. There's not that many used in crime to use them up.

In a United States where possession of small arms is made illegal tomorrow, your contention is few if anyone would turn in their firearms? My contention is if your average Joe with family, mortgage, yada, yada, yada, knew keeping a gun in the house could get him a mandatory minimum of three years in prison and all that goes with it, lose his job, house, yada, yada, yada, we'd easily get the majority of firearms in this country turned in for destruction. It would take three to five years to clean up the ones held by criminals. I mean, sooner or later they are going to try and use it in the commission of a crime, right?

The lowest estimate I have seen for guns in the US is upwards of 300 million. I have also seen a reasonable case for 600 million.

Lets suppose you get 90% of them by making them illegal. (And I think that's optimistic.) That leaves 30-60 million in criminal hands. It will take the police a long time to get rid of those, by which time small workshops will be turning them out for criminals if they have no better source.

I think this is an “enemy of the good” argument, Loren. I’d be tickled pink to know 90% or anything approaching 90% of the guns were removed from this country. Wouldn’t you?
The rest and anyone who would manufacture or bring guns into the country illegally will be an ongoing problem like any other criminal activity.

 

[TomC]

I think you agree that even if "thugs get what they deserve" is true, it doesn't mean they deserve to be killed by agents of the state while disarming themselves.

Everyone(important) agrees with this.

That's why the context is so crucial.

I see Roman Ruben as 95% responsible for this tragedy. Toledo and the cop, a little each. But Ruben and his gang are why a 13y/o had a gun and was shooting at random strangers and put the cop in the position of making a split second decision.
Tom

 

[Toni]

I don't think that's fair.

Fair has nothing to do with it. I was talking about how 13 year olds view the world.

I think it's reasonable to assume that if Adam had stuck both hands high in the air (sans gun) the second the cop appeared, he'd be alive today. He wasn't killed "no matter what he did," he was killed primarily because of specifically what he did. There's lots of sidebar issues that contributed to that, but...he could have taken many different avenues that would have led to his arrest instead of his shooting death.

Again, you are expecting that a 13 year old with serious learning disabilities (or without, to be honest) would have better presence of mind, better self control and quicker reaction times than trained police officers. It is obvious that the boy was frightened. The police officers who pursued him had no way of knowing that he was a lonely, isolated 13 year old with learning disabilities, desperately seeking out attention and friendship from the only person who seemed to give it to him. That's absolutely true. No one could expect them to know that. But it is wrong to grant police officers a grace period of time to react and to not grant the same to a child. Adam Toledo was a child.

Was it necessary that the police officer discharge his weapon when he did? I don't think so. He shouted a command and did not give the kid enough time to process and understand and comply with the command before he shot him.

Would you have cops try to psycho-analyze (in about 832 ms) the mental health of every suspect who takes off running on them? Chasing an armed suspect, should they have to yell, "Stop! Police! Do you currently have or have you ever been treated for any serious learning disabilities? Do you feel lonely and isolated?"

I have no idea of Adam Toledo's mental health and I am not certain why you are talking about his mental health. As far as I know, his mental health was fine but his intellectual capacities or at least his learning abilities were impaired.

I don't agree that the police officer should be granted some grace period of reaction time but Adam Toledo (or any suspect) not granted the same.

A lot is made of the officer's reaction time but surely, Adam had the same issues with reaction time. He also had a lot of adrenaline flowing through his system, a lot of fear, a lot of panic.

I'd imagine so. It probably led him to make the horrible decision(s) he made. He didn't rationally work out a plan to not only run, but then suddenly wheel around, holding a gun (for ANY AMOUNT OF milliseconds), on a trained cop whose lather was up from the chase. It sucks, and I feel badly that he was killed, but he put himself of that path.

He was a 13 year old kid--a child. It is morally reprehensible to expect greater responsibility and self control and to assign greater blame to a 13 year old kid than to an armed, trained, professional, adult police officer.

And he was 13 so he did not have an adult's ability to reason or predict outcomes, to gain self control.

He had an adult's ability to carry a gun...or thought he did, apparently.

Fucking bullshit. That's like saying a 13 year old girl has the adult ability to carry a child. And ffs, toddlers sometimes pick up guns and kill people. So I guess 3 or 4 is old enough to be treated like an adult if you are 3 and pick up a gun and it kills someone?

He made some big-boy decisions, and he paid a big-boy price

.

BOY???????????? Big Boy???????

Are you fucking kidding? He did NOT have an adult capacity to make decisions. He had less capacity to make decisions than the average 13 year old. No 13 year old DESERVES to die for making a stupid mistake. If they did, then all of us should be dead right now.

Don't lay that all at the feet of a cop who in your own words, didn't know Adam's age. MAYBE, if you're 13, and not mature enough to "reason, or predict outcomes, or gain self-control," one should simply stay a kid, and not play wanna-be gangbanger like you're in the big leagues. Again--don't get me wrong...I wish he had made better choices, while at the same time understanding the pressures that led hm not to.

If we insist on putting guns in the hands of cops, then yeah, I think we have every right to expect that a cop will behave responsibly and not shoot at a suspect who is complying before the suspect has a chance to fully comply.

If anything, I think the "message" kids would take away from this is less "the cops gonna kill you no matter WHAT you do" and more, "Don't ACT like you're some badass gangster unless you are prepared to live...and by inference, DIE like one." And a 13-year old, even HOLDING a gun, is acting like he's some street-tough badass, period. He's glamorizing that lifestyle, even if only periodically/briefly, instead of choosing to be a kid all the time.

That's some real right wing movie script material you got going on there. You're projecting YOUR attitudes and reasoning onto kids and it's not a good look at all.

He played with fire, he got burned. It's why we tell kids not to play with fire. I wish he'd listened. Not every single person who plays with fire gets burned. But some do.

Too goddamn fucked up to respond to.

He did what the officer told him to do.

I think that's misleading. A fully compliant suspect doesn't, for instance, take off down the alley. Again, if he instantly raises both (gun-free) hands high above his head, and maybe drops to his knees, he's alive today.

Really? I recall a full grown man not only on his knees but fully prone on the street who is dead now because of a cop. Maybe you heard about that?

The officer, as has been pointed out before, had already (consciously or not) made the decision to fire his weapon.

I don't know that. I suspect you don't either. I would infer, that as he was running down the alley after Adam, it at least crossed his mind, "is this going to end peacefully or will I have to discharge my weapon?" I would infer that if he's been a cop any length of time, he's wondered that LOTS of times. I bet Highway Patrol officers wonder that every time they walk up to a car they've pulled over. I would.

Hey, it seems a lot of people in this thread KNOW that he had already decided to discharge his weapon because he only had less than a full second to respond. I'm just agreeing with y'all.

It seems to me that we are expecting a 13 year old special ed student to have better control over himself and his actions than the adult, trained officer. We are willing to cut the officer breaks but not the 13 year old kid.

Not "better." Just "adequate." Adam's wasn't. For a lot of reasons, and, it sucks, but...if his self-control had been merely adequate, he'd be alive today. (In some form of custody, likely, but...alive.)

Heh. In your world, adequate does mean better control than the cop's.

 

[Gun Nut]

I’d be tickled pink to know 90% or anything approaching 90% of the guns were removed from this country. Wouldn’t you?

No. Anything less than 100% would mean that only the bad guys have the guns... .and that is just a stupid idea.
A poster mentioned that other countries have cops that do not carry guns. What, prey tell, is the penalty for a citizen carrying an illegal gun in such a country?
To reach 100% compliance with gun regulations (whatever they are or will be), will require 0% tolerance. IF the US wishes to effectively revoke the 2nd amendment, then possession of a gun will need to carry pretty close to a death penalty.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We MUST change how we do policing and we MUST change how we deal with guns in this country.

You mean white guy with gun = freedom and black man with gun = threat?

The trouble with this case is it appears like this teen was destined to die young. Isolated, troubled from the isolation and his mental health, and finding himself doing things maybe not because he wanted to, but because it provided him attention he was seeking. It is impossible to figure it all out, but any 13 year old that dies is a straight up tragedy. Some seem to get real hard over it though, 'thugs getting what they deserve'.

I think you agree that even if "thugs get what they deserve" is true, it doesn't mean they deserve to be killed by agents of the state while disarming themselves.

That isn't it. It is they are a "thug", and that alone justifies anything that happens to them. That is why the label is such crap. It presupposes whatever is necessary to justify whatever happens.

Should Toledo have been shot? I don't know. What I do know is the officer that shot him at one moment clearly didn't think it was fated because he barked orders. Why bark orders unless you think you can detain the person? The officer quickly changed his mind, however.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

He played with fire, he got burned.

He pointed his gun at the cops?

He did what the officer told him to do.

I think that's misleading. A fully compliant suspect doesn't, for instance, take off down the alley. Again, if he instantly raises both (gun-free) hands high above his head, and maybe drops to his knees, he's alive today.

At what point can he get rid of the gun without an issue? If he has the gun and raises his hands, dead. If he has the gun and starts to throw it and the officers see it, dead. It seems possession of a gun in sight of an officer gets you killed if you are black. This teen made mistakes, bad mistakes. But was the officer in immediate fear for his own life (or the life of another), the only reasonable time to use deadly force.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I think you agree that even if "thugs get what they deserve" is true, it doesn't mean they deserve to be killed by agents of the state while disarming themselves.

Everyone(important) agrees with this.

No it's not. You get labelled as a thug, "you get what is coming to you." That is why people get called thugs. It dehumanizes them into nothing but a violent criminal who is getting his before he takes it from someone else.

I see Roman Ruben as 95% responsible for this tragedy. Toledo and the cop, a little each. But Ruben and his gang are why a 13y/o had a gun and was shooting at random strangers and put the cop in the position of making a split second decision.
Tom

The cop ordered the teen to do something, so the cop didn't think he had to shoot immediately. What specifically changed his mind?

 

[barbos]

The cop ordered the teen to do something, so the cop didn't think he had to shoot immediately. What specifically changed his mind?

For million's time, the fashion in which teen "complied" with his orders made him change his "mind".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The cop ordered the teen to do something, so the cop didn't think he had to shoot immediately. What specifically changed his mind?

For million's time, the fashion in which teen "complied" with his orders made him change his "mind".

A fraction of a second?

 

[LoAmmo]

He pointed his gun at the cops?

I'm not trying to be cute or pedantic here, but, he "came close enough to pointing his gun at cops to be perceived as pointing his gun at cops, which almost always ends badly for people who point guns at cops or appear to be pointing guns at cops."

At what point can he get rid of the gun without an issue? If he has the gun and raises his hands, dead. If he has the gun and starts to throw it and the officers see it, dead. It seems possession of a gun in sight of an officer gets you killed if you are black. This teen made mistakes, bad mistakes. But was the officer in immediate fear for his own life (or the life of another), the only reasonable time to use deadly force.

He wasn't black. So....

But to your main point, yeah, unfortunately, you're right...there's really no ideal point to be getting rid of a gun once you're engaged with the police. There are better ways and there are very bad ways, but none are ideal, and maybe the best way is to not fucking have one in your hand in the first place. It's weird, I've never had to worry about exactly how or when to ditch a gun in a cop's presence.

Running was also a poor choice, speaking of "in the first place." Again, had he IMMEDIATELY surrendered himself, he'd be in custody but alive. Unless, obviously, the cop is a straight-up murderer, but I have no reason to suspect that. (cue accurate but irrelevant Derek Chauvin reference.)

IF you run from the police, and IF you're carrying a gun, your potential outcomes are unfavorable, right out of the gate, unfortunately. He did both, which is tantamount to playing with your life. Sad but True, as Metallica would say.

I think Tom C. nailed it a few posts upthread by suggesting the lion's share of the blame for this lies with the gang pressuring this impressionable (and vulnerable) kid to play gangster. Some goes on the cop, some goes on the kid--and anyone who pretends the kids is TOTALLY blameless in this is, in my opinion, fucking insane.

 

[barbos]

The cop ordered the teen to do something, so the cop didn't think he had to shoot immediately. What specifically changed his mind?

For million's time, the fashion in which teen "complied" with his orders made him change his "mind".

A fraction of a second?

Yep, that's fast but dumb response.

 

[Toni]

He pointed his gun at the cops?

I'm not trying to be cute or pedantic here, but, he "came close enough to pointing his gun at cops to be perceived as pointing his gun at cops, which almost always ends badly for people who point guns at cops or appear to be pointing guns at cops."

At what point can he get rid of the gun without an issue? If he has the gun and raises his hands, dead. If he has the gun and starts to throw it and the officers see it, dead. It seems possession of a gun in sight of an officer gets you killed if you are black. This teen made mistakes, bad mistakes. But was the officer in immediate fear for his own life (or the life of another), the only reasonable time to use deadly force.

He wasn't black. So....

But to your main point, yeah, unfortunately, you're right...there's really no ideal point to be getting rid of a gun once you're engaged with the police. There are better ways and there are very bad ways, but none are ideal, and maybe the best way is to not fucking have one in your hand in the first place. It's weird, I've never had to worry about exactly how or when to ditch a gun in a cop's presence.

Running was also a poor choice, speaking of "in the first place." Again, had he IMMEDIATELY surrendered himself, he'd be in custody but alive. Unless, obviously, the cop is a straight-up murderer, but I have no reason to suspect that. (cue accurate but irrelevant Derek Chauvin reference.)

IF you run from the police, and IF you're carrying a gun, your potential outcomes are unfavorable, right out of the gate, unfortunately. He did both, which is tantamount to playing with your life. Sad but True, as Metallica would say.

I think Tom C. nailed it a few posts upthread by suggesting the lion's share of the blame for this lies with the gang pressuring this impressionable (and vulnerable) kid to play gangster. Some goes on the cop, some goes on the kid--and anyone who pretends the kids is TOTALLY blameless in this is, in my opinion, fucking insane.

When I was 18, five years older than Adam Toledo, I found myself ina situation that turned out to not be what I thought it was or was going to be. It wasn’t illegal or immoral by most people’s reckoning but it was against some rules that might have gotten me into a bunch of trouble if the wrong people found out. Once I realized the situation, I did not know how to extricate myself. I really really wanted the other person to like me. It took me a little too long to realize that they didn’t/wouldn’t/couldn’t and by then, I thought I had no choice. It was a huge mistake. No weapons were involved. The only person who got hurt was me. Unlike Adam Toledo, I was an honor student, attending college on multiple academic scholarships. I was thought of as a very level headed person and known for bucking against peer pressure and doing what I thought was right, not what the crowd or some boy or even a friend tried to convince me to do.

There were no weapons involved. The only person who got hurt was me. But if I learned anything, it was how just quickly a moment’s decision—or indecision can change things in ways you did not intend but cannot take back. I was five years older than Adam Toledo, smart, considered to be especially responsible and especially mature for my age by nearly everyone. But I was still a kid in some ways and for just a moment, I let my insecurity get the better of me. I did a stupid thing and got hurt. I was lucky that it wasn’t much, much worse.

So forgive me if I have a lot more sympathy for a 13 year old boy with learning disabilities, who was lonely and isolated and desperate fir a friend. Who, in fear and panic, did not comply as perfectly or as quickly as necessary to make the adult cop who shot him feel safe enough it to NOT shoot him dead. In under one second’s one.

I think there’s a lot of dishonesty going on in this thread by all of those who believe that to any extent, Adam Toledo was responsible for his own death.

Lots of people failed Adam Toledo. The various systems that were in place to catch him when he fell—and we all fall!—these systems failed him. He’s dead now. And it’s still not his fault.

 

[TomC]

I think there’s a lot of dishonesty going on in this thread by all of those who believe that to any extent, Adam Toledo was responsible for his own death.

You think it's dishonest to point out that, had Toledo dropped the gun before running, things would have turned out differently?
Tom