Free Will And Free Choice

[DBT]

Neuroscience has no clue, you say? Your own belief overrides research and evidence, allowing you to dismiss anything that you disagree with?

Such authority.

Sorry to upset your religious devotion but no.

Neuroscience does not have the slightest clue what the mind is. Not the slightest clue what a thought is or what an emotion is or what the visual experience is.

They have no understanding of the phenomena of experience or the phenomena of the will.

Sorry.

You are the one making claims that go against science, research, results, evidence and analysis. You ignore anything that does not conform to your beliefs (which you have no evidence for). Which means that you are the man of faith and religion.

 

[fromderinside]

Watershed thought. Take away untermensche's dowser.

 

[untermensche]

Neuroscience has no clue, you say? Your own belief overrides research and evidence, allowing you to dismiss anything that you disagree with?

Such authority.

Sorry to upset your religious devotion but no.

Neuroscience does not have the slightest clue what the mind is. Not the slightest clue what a thought is or what an emotion is or what the visual experience is.

They have no understanding of the phenomena of experience or the phenomena of the will.

Sorry.

You are the one making claims that go against science, research, results, evidence and analysis. You ignore anything that does not conform to your beliefs (which you have no evidence for). Which means that you are the man of faith and religion.

Nothing I say goes against any science.

Science knows nothing, NOT ONE THING, about the mind. The brain is not the mind.

And therefore science can't make any claims about the capabilities of a mind.

But as free minds we know beyond doubt we exist. And know beyond doubt we are not a brain.

And know we are free if we are merely honest.

I am free that is how I know your ideas are fundamentalist rubbish. They are a prejudice and nothing more.

 

[untermensche]

Watershed thought. Take away untermensche's dowser.

Give you some sense.

How do you have any truth without the freedom to discard lies?

What makes a mind are the truths IT accepts and the lies IT discards.

And people are responsible for what they accept and discard.

They have no excuse.

Saying: "My brain made me a racist" is an excuse of a child and no adult would accept it.

 

[fromderinside]

Problem is with your logic one can't verify truth or lies or even identify them. Nice to have structure. Better to have structure supported by evidence.

Excuses aren't operative with self declared truths and lies.

 

[DBT]

You are the one making claims that go against science, research, results, evidence and analysis. You ignore anything that does not conform to your beliefs (which you have no evidence for). Which means that you are the man of faith and religion.

Nothing I say goes against any science.

Of course it does. Autonomous mind is not science. I have provided more than enough information on experiments, states and conditions of the brain that is evidence for brain agency.....an you reject it all.

You have repeatedly rejected the work of science and the analysis of researchers in favour of your own faith based belief in independent mind.

When asked for an explanation, you just repeat your mantra.

Now, in spite of all this you blatantly claim, ''nothing I say goes against any science.'' Incredible.

 

[untermensche]

You are the one making claims that go against science, research, results, evidence and analysis. You ignore anything that does not conform to your beliefs (which you have no evidence for). Which means that you are the man of faith and religion.

Nothing I say goes against any science.

Of course it does. Autonomous mind is not science. I have provided more than enough information on experiments, states and conditions of the brain that is evidence for brain agency.....an you reject it all.

You have repeatedly rejected the work of science and the analysis of researchers in favour of your own faith based belief in independent mind.

When asked for an explanation, you just repeat your mantra.

Now, in spite of all this you blatantly claim, ''nothing I say goes against any science.'' Incredible.

Science has nothing to say about the autonomy of the mind.

Science has no understanding of the mind beyond asking minds to guess at things and give information.

Science has made a few crude correlations between areas within the brain and subjective reports and stimulation of parts of the brain and subjective reports.

Science has no idea how we have subjective reports beyond saying the brain does it.

But humans with autonomous minds blather about many things and are wrong all the time.

 

[untermensche]

Problem is with your logic one can't verify truth or lies or even identify them. Nice to have structure. Better to have structure supported by evidence.

Excuses aren't operative with self declared truths and lies.

One can say "I believe that is true".

My experience of the scale says the brick weighs 6 pounds so I believe there is a brick and it has mass.

Believing your experience correlates to some truth is a willed decision.

You don't have to believe it.

Not believing it is like not moving the hand. Again a willed event.

 

[fromderinside]

Believing? I hope no one who depends on you asks you to show them the way. They'll be lost. They willed that, right?

 

[DBT]

Of course it does. Autonomous mind is not science. I have provided more than enough information on experiments, states and conditions of the brain that is evidence for brain agency.....an you reject it all.

You have repeatedly rejected the work of science and the analysis of researchers in favour of your own faith based belief in independent mind.

When asked for an explanation, you just repeat your mantra.

Now, in spite of all this you blatantly claim, ''nothing I say goes against any science.'' Incredible.

Science has nothing to say about the autonomy of the mind.

Science has no understanding of the mind beyond asking minds to guess at things and give information.

Science has made a few crude correlations between areas within the brain and subjective reports and stimulation of parts of the brain and subjective reports.

Science has no idea how we have subjective reports beyond saying the brain does it.

But humans with autonomous minds blather about many things and are wrong all the time.

Science, the experiments, case studies, lesions, chemical imbalances, neural connectivity, structures, organs, etc, etc, provide the evidence for brain agency: that it is the brain that generates consciousness.

You are denying the evidence by asserting your own beliefs in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

You have a faith based set of beliefs.

 

[untermensche]

Of course it does. Autonomous mind is not science. I have provided more than enough information on experiments, states and conditions of the brain that is evidence for brain agency.....an you reject it all.

You have repeatedly rejected the work of science and the analysis of researchers in favour of your own faith based belief in independent mind.

When asked for an explanation, you just repeat your mantra.

Now, in spite of all this you blatantly claim, ''nothing I say goes against any science.'' Incredible.

Science has nothing to say about the autonomy of the mind.

Science has no understanding of the mind beyond asking minds to guess at things and give information.

Science has made a few crude correlations between areas within the brain and subjective reports and stimulation of parts of the brain and subjective reports.

Science has no idea how we have subjective reports beyond saying the brain does it.

But humans with autonomous minds blather about many things and are wrong all the time.

Science, the experiments, case studies, lesions, chemical imbalances, neural connectivity, structures, organs, etc, etc, provide the evidence for brain agency: that it is the brain that generates consciousness.

You are denying the evidence by asserting your own beliefs in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

You have a faith based set of beliefs.

They provide no information about agency.

To think so is just a delusion, like thinking Jesus is watching every move you make.

Science has no understanding of what causes an arm to move when you will it to move.

NONE!

They merely see activity arise and have no understanding of what caused the activity to arise.

They ask the subject "Did you cause that activity to appear?".

The subject says "I don't know."

From this a ridiculous claim of brain agency appears like a spirit.

 

[untermensche]

Believing? I hope no one who depends on you asks you to show them the way. They'll be lost. They willed that, right?

Are you saying you have truths but don't believe they are true?

You twist yourself into a disreputable pretzel with your irrationality.

What do you believe about the things you claim are true then?

That they are not true?

Truth is a belief.

Nothing more.

 

[fromderinside]

I'm in to measuring feelings. On what scale is truth a belief?

 

[fromderinside]

"Nothing more?" Don't you mean "never more" like Poe quoted the Raven.

Ah, but I play. Why" You ask. 'Cause you do nothing but.

 

[untermensche]

I'm in to measuring feelings. On what scale is truth a belief?

What truth?

You think you have some.

Tell me about the faith you have in your truths.

You can't tell me anything else about them.

You can't prove you have any truths.

You can only have faith you do.

 

[fromderinside]

Ever use a pain estimation scale. Looks about the same as a Copper-Harper workload scale. Both of these scales relate to one's feelings. I wonder who would devise and use such scales in workplace and military evaluations? Guess who in this discussion developed, evaluated, validated and used these scales for decades. I can tell you more than you are able to assimilate. All you have is your self representations. I can get at a populations' representations.

I have much more than self or faith to go on.

 

[untermensche]

What you mean by "feeling" is an experience.

You experience pain. How you feel about the pain is something else.

 

[fromderinside]

No. I meant I feel my current experience of pain feels like it's worse than no pain at all, yet less than a strong pain, I feel pain as a three-four level experience out of nine level experience of pain. Our it's a normal spread of fingers relative to a maximum spread of fingers.

I feel pain relative to other experiences of pain.

Like I said if you want I'm in teaching mode.

 

[WAB]

No. I meant I feel my current experience of pain feels like it's worse than no pain at all, yet less than a strong pain, I feel pain as a three-four level experience out of nine level experience of pain. Our it's a normal spread of fingers relative to a maximum spread of fingers.

I feel pain relative to other experiences of pain.

Like I said if you want I'm in teaching mode.

Yeah but your pain has no objective data backing it up. Your confession of experiencing pain is mere reportage, with zero scientific data to support it.

How do I know you really feel pain? You could be lying, or deluded.

 

[DBT]

How do you delude yourself into thinking you feel pain? And if pain is generated by the brain, it may be due to faulty mechanisms, residual impulses from past injuries that have become habituated and chronic.