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The root of Christianity

I think I got the gist of your reasoning: So IF instead, one of these stories were to be true, how then would you be able tell, if those ancient people who claim they've seen such things with their own eyes; who documened & wrote about those particular events?
Not terribly interested in a hypothetical. YOU think some of those ancient stories are true.
Which stories?
Why?
What can you offer as evidence in support of that conclusion?
Any actual eyewitness accounts?

He doesn't think these other stories are true; he only believes the Jesus stories. He brought up the other stories as a smokescreen, to divert our attention from the fact that he cannot bring himself to acknowledge that the supernatural Jesus stories are almost certainly untrue based on the evidence. He is like the squid desperately squirting ink as it tries to escape its inevitable fate as dinner for a shark.
 
Witnessing and testimony is highly emphasized, for good reason, unlike other faiths. The 'mentality' speaking the truth is ultimately a must, in the 'understanding of compassion,' hearing how Jesus talks about it (witnessing)... the level of truth of the narrative to be told, while being 'in the fear of God and judgement etc..'

And yet there is very little truth to be found in your posts and your conduct. Only dissonance and a stubborn unwillingness to learn.

But you are correct in that Christianity emphasizes the importance of turning its followers into vectors for spreading the disease that is the Christian cult. Its followers are encouraged to go out into the world and peddle the ideology of self-loathing and worship of human sacrifice and suffering. It is not enough that Christians choose to live their lives as abject, shameful sinners; they are taught to prey on the weak and the vulnerable and bring them to their knees alongside them, grovelling at the feet of an invisible god in the hope it will show them mercy for being born broken.
 
As much as I try to be tolerant, I have been thinking of religion as a communicable disease. For whatever reason I seem to have a natural immunity.

Whatever benefits there were socially in the past no longer apply. American Christianity has created dangerous divisions.
 
Witnessing and testimony is highly emphasized, for good reason, unlike other faiths. The 'mentality' speaking the truth is ultimately a must, in the 'understanding of compassion,' hearing how Jesus talks about it (witnessing)... the level of truth of the narrative to be told, while being 'in the fear of God and judgement etc..'

And yet there is very little truth to be found in your posts and your conduct. Only dissonance and a stubborn unwillingness to learn.


But you are correct in that Christianity emphasizes the importance of turning its followers into vectors for spreading the disease that is the Christian cult. Its followers are encouraged to go out into the world and peddle the ideology of self-loathing and worship of human sacrifice and suffering. It is not enough that Christians choose to live their lives as abject, shameful sinners; they are taught to prey on the weak and the vulnerable and bring them to their knees alongside them, grovelling at the feet of an invisible god in the hope it will show them mercy for being born broken.

I'll just say it, as you often do try to make the bit in bold your usual rethoric. Either you're mistaken, or you're lying. Sorry about that.

Maybe it's because of the first letter L in my poster name, because I've seen you do similar to Lion, and Lumpy. ;)
 
Look at yourself in a mirror when you are by yourself and say out loud 'I believe the gospels as true events withiest any corroboration'.

If you have true faith it should be easy. If you have faith confront the truth.
 
Look at yourself in a mirror when you are by yourself and say out loud 'I believe the gospels as true events withiest any corroboration'.

If you have true faith it should be easy. If you have faith confront the truth.

Ok. You reminded me of..

...and the truth will set you free! :)
 
I think I got the gist of your reasoning: So IF instead, one of these stories were to be true, how then would you be able tell, if those ancient people who claim they've seen such things with their own eyes; who documened & wrote about those particular events?
Not terribly interested in a hypothetical. YOU think some of those ancient stories are true.
Which stories?
Why?
What can you offer as evidence in support of that conclusion?
Any actual eyewitness accounts?

He doesn't think these other stories are true; he only believes the Jesus stories. He brought up the other stories as a smokescreen, to divert our attention from the fact that he cannot bring himself to acknowledge that the supernatural Jesus stories are almost certainly untrue based on the evidence. He is like the squid desperately squirting ink as it tries to escape its inevitable fate as dinner for a shark.


I brought them up as a "Smokescreen, diverting attention, trying to escape?" Well, it was YOU who brought up the 'tens of thousands of gods!' :shrug: You forgot who did what, because it seems you were more concerned about asserting some things to my conduct.

Nothing wrong with bringing them up BTW (other gods) - just as you did, when using them as examples, analogeous or comparitively in context between other various gods or religions.
 
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The Bible is wisdom literature. It's just supposed to make you stop and think. It's a collection of talking points intended to train you into becoming a better person. This might as well be a statement intended to provoke the reader to think about sacrifice and sinning. Rather than writing us on the nose. it's also specifically written for one congregation having a specific theological issue. There might be context missing.

That said Paul is a pretty clear thinker and writer. But that doesn't mean we can just take whatever it says literally. That's not the kind of book it is.

Just because there's now a Christian literalist/fundamentalist tradition, and the early church spent a lot of time hammering out doctrinal unity, doesn't mean that's what the writer intended when he wrote it.

Paul had no idea his letters would be included into the primary Christian fetish they worshipped. In his mind he was writing talking points to interpreting the Torah. I think it's a bit silly to read this in any other way.

The bible is not 'one or the other' in regards to "it's either allegory V Literal." We know this by the obvious.... for example: we can plainly understand the Ten Commandments, and other laws etc. are meant to be literal! And there are the analogies, allegories, parables, practical wisdom, history (politcal & geographic), poetry songs and emotions. And as you highlight wisdom...

I suppose you could also say, that wisdom from the bible, is the sum of all of those aspects combined. What a way to tell a story!
 
He doesn't think these other stories are true; he only believes the Jesus stories. He brought up the other stories as a smokescreen, to divert our attention from the fact that he cannot bring himself to acknowledge that the supernatural Jesus stories are almost certainly untrue based on the evidence. He is like the squid desperately squirting ink as it tries to escape its inevitable fate as dinner for a shark.


I brought them up as a "Smokescreen, diverting attention, trying to escape?" Well, it was YOU who brought up the 'tens of thousands of gods!' :shrug: You forgot who did what, because it seems you were more concerned about asserting some things to my conduct.

Nothing wrong with bringing them up BTW (other gods) - just as you did, when using them as examples, analogeous or comparitively in context between other various gods or religions.

Weak attempts at turning the table.
 
Watched two shows on PBS about Henry 8th today.

Henry typifies how theology and interpretation of scripture including how translations are done has always been about politics.

In the day the Ctaholics had thier interpretaion which made te pop the power, Protestants had their interpretion, and Hnery had his ownn.

His English bible translation made him and his line to be the will of god. All sides viscously suppressed the others.
is
The point being what Christians have as 'Christianity' and all that is associated with it in terms of norms and beiefs were all crafted by humans over centuries. Little is bible based, certainly not the Catholics.

The common perception of heaven and hell were developed by people, it is not bible based. Dante had more to do with shaping the image of hell than anything else.

As to the gospel Jesus it does not make sense. He is referred to as rabbi teaching in temple and quoting Jewish scripture. For a believing Jew any reference to anyone being related to god would be high sacrilege and blasphemy.
 
The Bible is wisdom literature. It's just supposed to make you stop and think. It's a collection of talking points intended to train you into becoming a better person. This might as well be a statement intended to provoke the reader to think about sacrifice and sinning. Rather than writing us on the nose. it's also specifically written for one congregation having a specific theological issue. There might be context missing.

That said Paul is a pretty clear thinker and writer. But that doesn't mean we can just take whatever it says literally. That's not the kind of book it is.

Just because there's now a Christian literalist/fundamentalist tradition, and the early church spent a lot of time hammering out doctrinal unity, doesn't mean that's what the writer intended when he wrote it.

Paul had no idea his letters would be included into the primary Christian fetish they worshipped. In his mind he was writing talking points to interpreting the Torah. I think it's a bit silly to read this in any other way.

The bible is not 'one or the other' in regards to "it's either allegory V Literal." We know this by the obvious.... for example: we can plainly understand the Ten Commandments, and other laws etc. are meant to be literal! And there are the analogies, allegories, parables, practical wisdom, history (politcal & geographic), poetry songs and emotions. And as you highlight wisdom...

I suppose you could also say, that wisdom from the bible, is the sum of all of those aspects combined. What a way to tell a story!

You're making the common Christian reinterpretation of the past to fit current ideological needs of the Christian church. No, matter how much you want it not to be, we know very well how to read wisdom litterature.

Since the written word varied so much between books the ancients had a much less rigid view of anything theological. We read texts differently before and after the printing press was invented.

I think the ancients understood the difference between genuine wisdom and political propaganda. Both the New and the old testament is full of both.

BTW, the ten commandments are just obvious stuff. Nobody needs to be told any of that. The first three commandment is the only interesting ones. I think the other commandments are there to sell the first three. And these three are 100% political. It makes no difference to the faithful if they worship one or twenty gods. The top three commandments are the result of the king (I forget which) wanted to raise money by insisting that all Jews only sacrifice animals to Jehova in the temple of Jerusalem AND they only sacrificed animals bought from the king. It was a tax essentialy. Inadvertently he invented Abrahamic monotheism.

The first ten are just the first ten commandments. There is 613. The ancient Jews thought they were all as important.

Jesus (and Paul) thought this was silly and thought some of them were anachronistic and could be stricken. He then inadvertently created a new religion. Which changed the original meaning of the first three commandments.

I'm sure the ancient Jews often rolled their eyes at the first three commandments and thought "sure, the only god told you that we now have to do all our worship in the one temple under your control which exclusively benefits you and your family" when they made burned offerings at the temple.

Archeologists have found small private shrines to Baal, Dagon, Anat, Moloch, etc active well into Post Christian Times. Jews understood full well how much the king of the Jews could be greedy and full of shit. Archeology backs it up.

Christianity is a more streamlined and simpler religion than Paganism. Which makes it easier, but it also leads to intellectual laziness. Christian theology is more shallow than pagan theology is. For this reason I think the ancient Jews were more cynical about the Old Testament than what modern Christians are, who often seem to swallow it uncritically.

We have a very good understanding of how the ancients used wisdom litterature.

Christianity is interesting in that it stresses the need of accepting and NOT think. Ie faith. But that wouldn't have made sense to those writing and reading the Bible in those early days. They were all pagans and would be thinking and reading like pagans. Ie the people the Bible was written for and who they tried to convince. Only a modern Christian would have the ability to chose to interpret the Bible as you do.
 
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Witnessing and testimony is highly emphasized, for good reason, unlike other faiths. The 'mentality' speaking the truth is ultimately a must, in the 'understanding of compassion,' hearing how Jesus talks about it (witnessing)... the level of truth of the narrative to be told, while being 'in the fear of God and judgement etc..'

And yet there is very little truth to be found in your posts and your conduct. Only dissonance and a stubborn unwillingness to learn.


But you are correct in that Christianity emphasizes the importance of turning its followers into vectors for spreading the disease that is the Christian cult. Its followers are encouraged to go out into the world and peddle the ideology of self-loathing and worship of human sacrifice and suffering. It is not enough that Christians choose to live their lives as abject, shameful sinners; they are taught to prey on the weak and the vulnerable and bring them to their knees alongside them, grovelling at the feet of an invisible god in the hope it will show them mercy for being born broken.

I'll just say it, as you often do try to make the bit in bold your usual rethoric. Either you're mistaken, or you're lying. Sorry about that.

Prove it. Show me where I have lied. And show me why any of the arguments I made are faulty.

I stand behind what I said in the post you responded to. If you are making up shit, or being deliberately dishonest, I will call you out on it. Especially when you repeatedly engage in such behavior, and then come back with a post preaching about speaking the truth (because Jesus), when you clearly are unwilling to engage honestly. The way to avoid being called out is to not engage in such behavior.

To this day:
1. you have not been able to acknowledge that Lumpy's argument from ignorance, which you endorsed is flawed (and you made a similar argument yourself later).
2. you have not been able to acknowledge that the evidence indicates that the Jesus miracle stories are almost certainly not factual.

That speaks to dissonance and lack of integrity.
 
He doesn't think these other stories are true; he only believes the Jesus stories. He brought up the other stories as a smokescreen, to divert our attention from the fact that he cannot bring himself to acknowledge that the supernatural Jesus stories are almost certainly untrue based on the evidence. He is like the squid desperately squirting ink as it tries to escape its inevitable fate as dinner for a shark.


I brought them up as a "Smokescreen, diverting attention, trying to escape?" Well, it was YOU who brought up the 'tens of thousands of gods!' :shrug: You forgot who did what, because it seems you were more concerned about asserting some things to my conduct.

Nothing wrong with bringing them up BTW (other gods) - just as you did, when using them as examples, analogeous or comparitively in context between other various gods or religions.

I brought up the fact that humans have made up thousands of stories about god, that such events are common. Which is a fact.

You told us that some of these stories were, or could be true. You did not support this assertion with any evidence, even after you were called out by at least two people reading the thread. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that you have no such evidence, and were simply making it up to avoid responding to the actual argument - that humans make up stories about gods all the time. Which lends credence to the argument that the Jesus supernatural stories are likely made up.
 
Mencken wrote the classic piece on the graveyard of the gods -- 'Memorial Service,' a short essay in Prejudices: Third Series (and much-reprinted.) He discusses some of the once-mighty and feared deities of the Aztecs, Celts, Egyptians, et al, and concludes with a long list of the names of dead and defunct gods. I don't see how anyone reads this short piece and doesn't derive its message fully, instantly, and decisively. (But then they can always tune into today's priest class, which all of these earlier gods once enjoyed. The virus just keeps on mutating.)
 
When the religious feel put upon they get into the euphoria and ecstasy of belief becoming impervious to any reasoning or logic.

I expect it is like an opioid. They repeat scripture feeling good and nothing else matters.
 
Watched two shows on PBS about Henry 8th today.

Henry typifies how theology and interpretation of scripture including how translations are done has always been about politics.

In the day the Ctaholics had thier interpretaion which made te pop the power, Protestants had their interpretion, and Hnery had his ownn.

His English bible translation made him and his line to be the will of god. All sides viscously suppressed the others.
is
The point being what Christians have as 'Christianity' and all that is associated with it in terms of norms and beiefs were all crafted by humans over centuries. Little is bible based, certainly not the Catholics.

The common perception of heaven and hell were developed by people, it is not bible based. Dante had more to do with shaping the image of hell than anything else.

As to the gospel Jesus it does not make sense. He is referred to as rabbi teaching in temple and quoting Jewish scripture. For a believing Jew any reference to anyone being related to god would be high sacrilege and blasphemy.

The interesting thing about Luther and Calvin was just how autistically they read the Bible. For the first time in Christian history the actual words in the Bible were more important than what the Christian church said was Christian doctrine. In the early church the Bible was to a large extent a fetish. The early church fathers created the Bible, so obviously they saw themselves and their own interpretation as more important than the words themselves.

Especially Calvin realised some pretty peculiar quirks in Paul's theology, which wasn't part of the early church teachings, yet was in the Bible. Like the stuff about Christian predestination. I highly doubt that's what Paul meant since it would invalidate his own activities, as well as building the church. To Calvin's credit he ran with it, showing the Biblical inconsistencies in all it's glory.

It's also funny how Luther couldn't quite make it work out anyway, so he inserted a bunch of stuff. Like his vitriolic hate of Jews. Also invalidating his own project. If it isn't ad fontes, then what was his problem with the Catholic church?

I think it's important to acknowledge when reading the Bible that there's no way the writers of the Bible could have known that they were replacing the Old Testament. I suspect Paul himself and all the church fathers would have been horrified by the thought. They were all devout Jews. Their sacred text, which they feishised, was the Torah. Why wouldn't they see the New Testament, and holding it up on par with the Torah, as blasphemy?

I think it's silly to see the Bible as anything but a jury rigged product that grew without much of a plan. It simply emerged, mostly by chance, from a religion that fetishised the written word and saw it as sacred and worth preserving, no matter if they understood it or not.
 
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