Snowflakes in action: the actual reality of "snowflakes" in the world and the consequences

[Toni]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

 

[Toni]

Question: if there are science books in school libraries which contain obsolete or incomplete information that has since been found to be lacking or incomplete or just plain incorrect, should those books remain in use in libraries? Or should they be removed and replaced with more accurate science books?
What should happen to the incorrect books?

How is that different from other books which have outdated or disproven theories or ideas about peoples or history or sociology or psychology?

Who is this question aimed at?

It’s a general question.

Anybody can answer.

Non-fiction books that are no longer relevant or accurate can be retired from library stock, unless they have historical value. This would usually mean selling them. It would be unusual to burn them on a ritual bonfire in the name of atonement.

Fiction books are art, and art has no truth-value in the same way non-fiction does. If, for some reason, fiction books were to be retired, it would also be prudent to sell them.

What about works of fiction which have extremely sexist or racist or homophonic content?

When you say retired, what does that mean?

 

[Metaphor]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

No, why should they? Why have you described them as harmful?

The DSM used to list homosexuality as a disorder, until the 1970s. There should be no reason a library ought destroy the historical record of how the DSM developed over the decades. Destroying the historical record is something that is done by the Inner Party in 1984.

 

[Metaphor]

Question: if there are science books in school libraries which contain obsolete or incomplete information that has since been found to be lacking or incomplete or just plain incorrect, should those books remain in use in libraries? Or should they be removed and replaced with more accurate science books?
What should happen to the incorrect books?

How is that different from other books which have outdated or disproven theories or ideas about peoples or history or sociology or psychology?

Who is this question aimed at?

It’s a general question.

Anybody can answer.

Non-fiction books that are no longer relevant or accurate can be retired from library stock, unless they have historical value. This would usually mean selling them. It would be unusual to burn them on a ritual bonfire in the name of atonement.

Fiction books are art, and art has no truth-value in the same way non-fiction does. If, for some reason, fiction books were to be retired, it would also be prudent to sell them.

What about works of fiction which have extremely sexist or racist or homophonic content?

What about them? Why should they be retired? They are art. It is not the duty of libraries to censor art.

When you say retired, what does that mean?

I'll tell you what it doesn't mean: burning them in a bonfire of atonement.

It is one thing for people to burn books they bought as a protest, and to publish their burning as a virtue signal on TikTok. It is quite another for a public institution to do the burning.

 

[Toni]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

No, why should they? Why have you described them as harmful?

The DSM used to list homosexuality as a disorder, until the 1970s. There should be no reason a library ought destroy the historical record of how the DSM developed over the decades. Destroying the historical record is something that is done by the Inner Party in 1984.

Books which contain incorrect scientific information can cause harm by teaching students incorrect information and confusing them as they have access to more accurate books.

I seriously doubt that school libraries have copies of the DSM but they might have copies of old sociology or old psychology texts that reference such discredited theories.

When I was in high school in the ‘70’s I believe my sociology book referred to intellectually disabled individuals by some pretty terrible but absolutely acceptable for the times terms. I mean, I was pretty horrified at the time. Today, such texts would not be used.

It was a different time and there was no mention of S-E-X at all. In textbooks. In the halls, notes passed in class: sure.

 

[Metaphor]

Books which contain incorrect scientific information can cause harm by teaching students incorrect information and confusing them as they have access to more accurate books.

The books don't have to be treated as containing correct scientific information. Are medical students are checking out 19th century anatomy textbooks?

I seriously doubt that school libraries have copies of the DSM but they might have copies of old sociology or old psychology texts that reference such discredited theories.

You did not say 'school libraries', but 'libraries'.

School libraries have an additional criterion for the books they hold: age appropriateness and the community approval of the community that has an interest in the school.

When I was in high school in the ‘70’s I believe my sociology book referred to intellectually disabled individuals by some pretty terrible but absolutely acceptable for the times terms. I mean, I was pretty horrified at the time. Today, such texts would not be used.

Who suggested using outdated textbooks to teach from?

It was a different time and there was no mention of S-E-X at all. In textbooks. In the halls, notes passed in class: sure.

Yes, it was a different time.

I would prefer the details of that time be preserved, not memory-holed by bureaucrats who want to uphold an imagined social history as determined by the Inner Party.

 

[ZiprHead]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

I think older, outdated science books could still be used as references for historical purposes, i.e. don't make that mistake again.

 

[Toni]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

I think older, outdated science books could still be used as references for historical purposes, i.e. don't make that mistake again.

In a school library? I’m thinking of K-12, not university level. At university, I read abdcdud a paper on a famous scientist’s work that was disproven, and read his original published papers on a particular topic. It was interesting to see, in the light of years of research since his work how he got stuck on a particular path while others found the now established/accepted chemical structures. He became famous for different research.

I agree that there is a lot to learn from one’s own abs from other people’s mistakes but it needs to be age appropriate in terms of having sufficient background, etc.

 

[Toni]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

I think older, outdated science books could still be used as references for historical purposes, i.e. don't make that mistake again.

My apologies If I’ve gone down the wrong track here, but I thought we were talking about K-12 schools. At those ages, kids are just learning facts, basic skills and theories, etc. there is just a LOT of learning fir these kids to get in in just 13 years.

And….school libraries do not have infinite space to store books that are outdated.

 

[ZiprHead]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

I think older, outdated science books could still be used as references for historical purposes, i.e. don't make that mistake again.

In a school library? I’m thinking of K-12, not university level. At university, I read abdcdud a paper on a famous scientist’s work that was disproven, and read his original published papers on a particular topic. It was interesting to see, in the light of years of research since his work how he got stuck on a particular path while others found the now established/accepted chemical structures. He became famous for different research.

I agree that there is a lot to learn from one’s own abs from other people’s mistakes but it needs to be age appropriate in terms of having sufficient background, etc.

Oh, I actually agree with you in that circumstance.

 

[Metaphor]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

I think older, outdated science books could still be used as references for historical purposes, i.e. don't make that mistake again.

My apologies If I’ve gone down the wrong track here, but I thought we were talking about K-12 schools. At those ages, kids are just learning facts, basic skills and theories, etc. there is just a LOT of learning fir these kids to get in in just 13 years.

And….school libraries do not have infinite space to store books that are outdated.

So, if a school library K-12 has outdated textbooks, it can retire them. I would suggest selling them as a school fundraiser.

If a book is retired because it is literally falling apart physically, I would suggest pulping it.

What I would not suggest is an institution burn them in a bonfire of atonement.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, this is Black History Month.
In those school districts where it's going to raise a stink to observe BHM, or explain why there is a BHM, or some of the things typically spotlighted during BHM, because Karens will complain aboit stealth-CRT, what the hell are those schools putting on their Activity Boards?
Happy March Minus 28th?

 

[Toni]

* I specially mentioned science as it is a ( very broad) area of study where ideas and understanding really are changing. I think everyone here believes in science and that students should have the most up to date information/current thinking and understanding possible. What should be done with outdated science books? What IS done with outdated science books?

Similarly I am pretty sure everyone here believes that homosexuality is a valid sexual orientation ration and is not a mental illness, sin or aberration. I’m pretty sure a bunch of us remember when homosexuality was not openly discussed ( mainstream anyway), was legally prohibited and some at least are aware that it used to be considered a mental illness—something I’m sure we ALL disagree with.

Should such harmful books be removed from libraries? What should happen to them?

I think older, outdated science books could still be used as references for historical purposes, i.e. don't make that mistake again.

My apologies If I’ve gone down the wrong track here, but I thought we were talking about K-12 schools. At those ages, kids are just learning facts, basic skills and theories, etc. there is just a LOT of learning fir these kids to get in in just 13 years.

And….school libraries do not have infinite space to store books that are outdated.

So, if a school library K-12 has outdated textbooks, it can retire them. I would suggest selling them as a school fundraiser.

If a book is retired because it is literally falling apart physically, I would suggest pulping it.

What I would not suggest is an institution burn them in a bonfire of atonement.

What market, exactly, do you think there is fir outdated school textbooks?

* there are charities dedicated to sending old textbooks to underserved areas (3rd world countries) but do we really want children in developing nations to have to deal with books that have incorrect information?

Please note: I love books. I have a house full of books, from my attic to my basement. The only room that does not have books ( plural) in it is the very tiny first floor powder room. I have books that I’ve read until they are literally falling apart. I have paperback books that I’ve read until they were falling apart abs then replaced them with hardcover versions—abs I still have the worn out falling apart paperback books. I still have the chemistry text from my first year at university!!!

And…,we have some books from my husband’s childhood that appear on the list of problematic books in the OP. I have the encyclopedias my parents bought when my older sibling was in elementary school. An atlas filled with maps where borders have dramatically changed!

I may have a book problem.

And I think that schools really do need to get rid of outdated books to make room for new more up to date books. And… as painful as I personally find this: it sometimes means destroying old books who no longer serve a good purpose.

 

[ZiprHead]

Happy Black History Month

'It is scary, it is horrifying': Bomb threats made to more than a dozen HBCUs over 2 days

For the second day in a row, several historically Black colleges and universities reported bomb threats Tuesday.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Metaphor]

What market, exactly, do you think there is fir outdated school textbooks?

I don't know how many different times I have to explain selling used books. When libraries have books they no longer want, they sell them. If they can't sell them, I guess they junk them or onsell them to a wholesale buyer.

And I think that schools really do need to get rid of outdated books to make room for new more up to date books. And… as painful as I personally find this: it sometimes means destroying old books who no longer serve a good purpose.

So, let them do that. If there is no way to sell them, then pulp them.

Just...don't burn them in a religious bonfire of atonement.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I get it. The meme is deficient on its own, and instead of you admitting that, the fault lies with the people outside the faith to seek out the True Meaning--a True Meaning not at all apparent from the words in the meme itself.

But even the True Meaning--as divined by you--is wicked and false, though less objectionable than the plain meaning.

Memes are always simplistic because they're trying to condense things far more than they actually can be condensed. They often don't make sense if you don't know the context, the context ads the meaning.

 

[Metaphor]

I get it. The meme is deficient on its own, and instead of you admitting that, the fault lies with the people outside the faith to seek out the True Meaning--a True Meaning not at all apparent from the words in the meme itself.

But even the True Meaning--as divined by you--is wicked and false, though less objectionable than the plain meaning.

Memes are always simplistic because they're trying to condense things far more than they actually can be condensed. They often don't make sense if you don't know the context, the context ads the meaning.

And, as I've said now multiple times, even the True Meaning is wicked and false.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Fiction books are art, and art has no truth-value in the same way non-fiction does. If, for some reason, fiction books were to be retired, it would also be prudent to sell them.

In practice fiction that's pulled normally isn't going to be sellable. They're pulling it because it's not circulating and if it's not circulating there's little demand.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Please note: I love books. I have a house full of books, from my attic to my basement. The only room that does not have books ( plural) in it is the very tiny first floor powder room. I have books that I’ve read until they are literally falling apart. I have paperback books that I’ve read until they were falling apart abs then replaced them with hardcover versions—abs I still have the worn out falling apart paperback books. I still have the chemistry text from my first year at university!!!

And…,we have some books from my husband’s childhood that appear on the list of problematic books in the OP. I have the encyclopedias my parents bought when my older sibling was in elementary school. An atlas filled with maps where borders have dramatically changed!

I may have a book problem.

And I think that schools really do need to get rid of outdated books to make room for new more up to date books. And… as painful as I personally find this: it sometimes means destroying old books who no longer serve a good purpose.

Yes, you have a book problem. Most books, including virtually 100% of new books, can be obtained in electronic formats. Buy e-books, strip the DRM (so you don't lose them if the license server disappears) and store them in a standard format like .epub or .mobi.

 

[Metaphor]

Fiction books are art, and art has no truth-value in the same way non-fiction does. If, for some reason, fiction books were to be retired, it would also be prudent to sell them.

In practice fiction that's pulled normally isn't going to be sellable. They're pulling it because it's not circulating and if it's not circulating there's little demand.

Okay, yep, you are right. Libraries never sell retired books. I never saw or heard such a thing and I certainly don't have ex-library copies in my own home right now.